Tree of Savior Forum

[Feedback][Open Discussion] Proposed changes to the Swordsman classes - by Cathexis

Class and Rank Swordsman
#80

Thank you for making this thread @Cathexis

I agree with these changes especially for the Shinobi part :slight_smile:

However, I have suggestions in mind about the changes in Shinobi Class. People might disagree with this; however, please take note that this is my personal suggestions.
This took me 2 days to complete this. I just hope the Staffs will consider this lol.
I’m doing revisions on skills of Shinobi to be more little bit realistic.

#Additional items for Shinobi:

  • Shuriken: It costs 500 silver each.

  • Smoke Bomb: It costs 500 silver each.

#Additional Active Skills:

I would like to replace Mijin No Jutsu with these following skills:

  • Raining Shuriken (Max level 5, Pierce-Type):
    You will choose a location and Locks the target within AoE Radius 3 and fires deadly Shurikens. It deals 735 damage each Shuriken. Each hit releases 2 Shurikens. Last for 3.5 seconds. (This skill can be used while moving or running). Consumes Shuriken. (Can be copied by clones)

Note: the damage scale is in Max level.

  • Slash and Dash Attack! (Max level 5, Overheat 2, Slash-Type, AoE radius 4, Element: Dark):
    A skill combination of dashing through the enemy/enemies while slashing the enemy by spinning below this body with a deadly attack. The Shinobi will go pass through the enemy after the animation. It deals 895 damage. (Can be copied by clones)

Note: the damage scale is in Max level.

  • Dodge Rolling (Max level 1, Overheat 2):
    A basic evasive maneuver that dodges all attack. Cooldown 30 seconds. Consumes 2 stamina. Cooldown 28 seconds. (Cannot be copied by clones)

  • Kusari Gama No Jutsu (Max level 1, Slash-type):
    A technique that uses long range chain and sickle weapon dealing fast and deadly damage to the enemies rapidly. All skills and the equipped weapons will be disabled and will be replace by a chain and sickle weapon. The damage scale depends on the skill level. Deals 835 damage + the number of DEX points per hit . This weapon cannot be compared to 1h-sword,2h-sword, dagger, pistol,1h-spear,2h-spear, and Rapier. Consumes 13 SP Point per Hit. Cannot be copied by clones.

  • Change Stance (Max level 1):
    This skill can swap from using Ninjutsu to Tai Jutsu and vice-versa. When in Tai Jutsu, you will be restricted in using all skills and your weapons. You will be automatically use [Fists] as your main and sub weapon (Damage scale of Fists depending on your equipped weapons damage + 10% additional Physical Damage. You will use your body as a weapon, and unique Tai Jutsu skills. Clones will disappear once you activate this skill, and cannot be copied by Clones. Cooldown 5 seconds.

TAI JUTSU SKILLS:

Ninjas/Shinobi doesn’t only use weapons, but also Unarmed Combat they call it Tai Jutsu. That’s the reason why I created the Change Stance skills. People might think this is OP but take note of the skills below, and see for yourself.
Take note that there is no need for you to spend skill points for the Tai-Jutsu skills. Once you get the Change stance, you will automatically get all skills and they’re considered as level 1, and cannot be enhanced by Divine Might.

  • Chi Punch (Max level 1, Overheat 3, Strike-type):
    A technique using Chi to enhance your fist and strikes the enemy uses both his Body and Spirit that deals 685 damage + 8% HP of the enemy. It consumes 1 stamina. Cooldown 21 seconds after all Overheat are consumed.

  • Heaven’s Kick (Max level 1, Overheat 3, Strike-type):
    A technique blessed by the heavens to deliver massive blow to the enemy. It deals 745 damage + 40% Physical damage of the Shinobi. Consumes 2 stamina. Cooldown 21 seconds after all Overheat are consumed.

  • Growling Tiger’s Uppercut (Max level 1, Strike-Type):
    A technique learned from the white tiger’s ferocious roar and translated into uppercut maneuver hit the target’s body. It deals 675 damage. The enemy will be vulnerable to all incoming Strike-Type Damage within 6 seconds. Cooldown 23 seconds. Consumes 3 stamina.

  • Rising Dragon (Max level 1, Strike-Type)
    A technique learned and blessed by the great Ryu. Uses a Highly Advanced Uppercut attack to the enemy and flies to the sky, the Shinobi will jump and captures the enemy and smash the enemy on the ground. This deals 1485 damage and knock’s down the captured enemy. Deals 975 damage to enemies within AoE radius of 8 (The captured enemy will no longer deal damage with this). Cooldown 63 seconds. Consumes 7 stamina.

  • Dodge Rolling: this skill will remain in Tai Jutsu mode, and still the same.

#Additional Class attributes (Passives):

  • Bunshin No Jutsu: Weapon Mastery (Max Level 1):
    Clones can now use 2H-spears, 2H-swords, and a sub-weapon Dagger.

  • Ninja Ken (Max Level 3):
    When equipped with 1H-sword, 2H-sword, and Rapier, it provides additional physical damage of +5% per level. At maxed level, it has a chance of Bleeding (The damage of bleeding is determined by Character’s STR with a duration 2 seconds) to the enemy by 8% chance (This applies to all Slash-Type Damage dealt by the Shinobi only not even the Clones). You cannot choose Yari No Jutsu if you choose this.

Note: this is in level 1.

  • Yari No Jutsu (Max Level 3):
    When equipped with 1H-spear and 2H spear, it provides additional physical damage of +5% per level. At maxed level, it has a chance of [Armor-Break] of 10% (2 seconds duration) to the enemy by 8% chance (This applies to all Pierce-Type Damage dealt by the Shinobi only not even the Clones) You cannot choose Ninja Ken if you choose this.

Note: this is in level 1.

  • Shadow Weapon Assault (Max level 1):
    When equipped with a Dagger, it immediately connects to the main-hand when attacking the enemy without a delay by 15% chance (It applies only in auto-attacks. This can be activated without manually clicking the Sub-Weapon Attack). This affects the Clones as well.

  • Inton No Jutsu (Max level 1):
    When your HP reached 20% and below, immediately you will throw a Smoke Bomb creating a [Smoke Screen] (AoE radius 6 with 2 seconds duration. Enemies within range are [Blinded] until the remainder of the effect), and be teleported randomly within 180 range. You will gain 2 seconds of stealth after that. (Can be used on both stance)
    Cooldown 132 seconds, and consumes 3 Smoke Bombs.

  • Enchance: Kusari Gama No Jutsu (Max level 3):
    Improves critical rate by 7% per level. At level 3, inflicts [Bleeding] whenever you use Kusari Gama by a chance of 10%. Deals Splash Damage as well within AoE radius 3. At 8th attack, it captures the enemy last for 2.3 seconds and you will pull the chain in order for you to get near the enemy’s location.

Note: this is in level 1.

  • Untouchable (Max level 1):
    Whenever you use [Dodge Rolling], it leaves Caltrops (Last for 1.5 seconds duration) to slow down the enemy who is chasing you and gives +20% movement speed in 3 seconds after that. (Can be used on both stance)

  • Sharpened Shurikens (Max level 1):
    Whenever you use [Raining Shurikens], it has a chance of 7% to cause [Bleeding] whoever gets hit by the Shurikens.

  • Dash in the Shadows (Max level 1):
    After you used [Slash and Dash Attack!], you will be in Stealth mode for 2 seconds.

  • Be one with the Shadows (Max level 1):
    Whenever you are in Stealth Mode, you will gain +30% movement speed. It gives additional 1 second duration to all Stealth buffs.

  • Raining Shuriken Attribute (Max level 100):
    Gives additional Damage by 1% per level.

  • Slash and Dash Attack Attribute (Max level 100:
    Gives additional Damage by 1% per level.

  • Kusari Gama No Jutsu (Max level 50)
    Gives additional Damage by 1% per level.

  • Tai Jutsu Mastery (Max level 5):
    Whenever in Tai jutsu stance, your equipped weapons will be replaced by Fists. Fists will be considered as Blunt-Type Weapon and Strike-Type Damage. It gives +5% HP and +2% chance to resist to stuns, knock backs, and knock downs per level. In level 5, whenever in Tai Jutsu stance, when your health reaches 20% or below, it gives you +25% Physical Damage Reduction and Magical Damage Reduction and improves your attack speed +25% for 7 seconds.

Note: this is in level 1.

  • Rising Dragon’s Fury (Max level 1):
    Decreases Cooldown by 15 seconds. Enemies within the AoE raidus will be knocked down when you hit the ground.

  • Deadly Combo (Max level 1):
    This utilizes the use Chi Punch and Heaven’s Kick. In every combo, it deals additional damage to the enemy. These are the following Combos:
    2 Chi Punch + 1 Heaven’s Kick = deals additional damage to the enemy of 200…
    2 Heaven’s Kick + 1 Chi Punch = deals additional damage to the enemy 235
    3 Chi Punch + 1 Heaven’s Kick = deals additional damage to the enemy 285
    3 Heaven’s Kick + 2 Chi Punch = deals additional damage to the enemy 315

  • Growling Tiger’s Might (Max level 1):
    Whenever the enemy is hit by [Growling Tiger’s Uppercut], it slows the enemy for 1.3 seconds.

  • Fist of Fate (Max level 1):
    Whenever you use [Chi Punch], it has a chance to [Armor-Break(reduces the enemy’s physical armor by 15%)] by 6%. Last for 2 seconds.

  • Swift Kick (Max level 1):
    Whenever you use [Heaven’s Kick], it has a chance to [Slow} the enemy by 5%. Last for 2 seconds.

  • Chi Punch Attribute (Max level 50):
    Gives additional Damage by 1% per level.

  • Heaven’s Kick Attribute (Max level 50):
    Gives additional Damage by 1% per level.

  • Growling Tiger’s Uppercut Attribute (Max level 50):
    Gives additional Damage by 1% per level.

  • Rising Dragon Attribute (Max level 50):
    Gives additional Damage by 1% per level.

3 Likes
#81

Agreed to this but it would be better over all to the AoE, range & CD’s of most of our offensive skill . We can argue for the auto attacks on Swordie class in general but if IMC fixes these 3 first it would be a step in the right direction.

IMC Staff Notice us Senpaiiiii~~!!

#82

We will have to agree to disagree, I don’t see them balancing wiz3ele3. I see them introducing new circles to alter the value of going those builds. We are dealing with less than half of the content in the game.

You also have to understand from a bussiness/ resource standpoint tweaking several skills and waiting to see what happens is much more intensive than genral adjustments across swordman and being done with it for now. IMC has many fires to deal with and swordman balance is very low on the list.

1 Like
#83

As 230 sword1/pelt1/hop2/cor2/dragoon, this is my few feedback.

Okay, Corsair.

  • Dust Devil give a mediocre damage, but good CC, i think it would be better if dust devil given dodge mechanic like jumping while in animation (this is for boss and ranged mob, not overpowered but give more fun way to use this skill)

  • Jolly Roger, while this skill is good, i think it would be better to give scaling to the combo counter, (right now its flat +5 if i recall, maybe like 2% each mob?)

  • Dual Wield Assault, this skill is doing their job well, but the problem is auto attack is not good past lvl 200++ due to mob scaling (High HP, Hit like a truck), maybe give more attack speed and more auto attack damage ( similiar to running shot but scale it lower eg: 150%? )

Now Dragoon.

  • Gae Bulg, this skill is sucks very hard, you throw the spear on fixed distance, give debuff for 7.5s at lvl 5, hit only once, and the problem with the debuff is, you spend 2 to 4 seconds to get the spear again, leaving a small window to make use of the debuff, not to mention you can screw up your positioning while try to get the spear, and to use it, you need to go position yourself to use it, hence lose of dps.

My suggestion to this skill is, to make it targetable and use animation like long stride ( you jump with your spear to designate location ) so we can use our skill immediately after gae bulg to make use of the debuff.
and make it multi hit, (1 for the spear strike, another hit on ground splash)

  • Now dragoontooth and serpentine, IMO this skill is already good, but mediocre if we compare it to another rank 7 skill ( lack of scaling, no overheat), my suggestion is a little scaling and give some debuff on hit ( serpentine bleeding attribute need to be higher chance on hit and like armor break maybe to increase party dps ).

I think some of this suggetion would make some swordman class good, not because of damage, but more mechanic and support viabilty based on debuff. ( we increase overall party dps instead increase our dps )

maybe thats a few suggestion from me,

#84

i dont think shinobi should use any item for anything. i mean if you’re gonna be realistic, why stop at shinobi? why not target archer while you’re at it, since they dont use ammo for their arrows or bullets

#85

Well, said I’d deliver.

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That’s the Team Level 5 sticking and

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Row of fever time. They’ll poof half the time if you throw down more flags.

2 Likes
#86

Currently Gae Bulg is in sh*t position as u cannt throw ur spear to any location u like as throw spear do.

#87

I proposed a few changes to Gae Bulg earlier in the thread:

  • Gae Bulg - Remove its minimum range, and allow it to be aimed via targeting reticle (similar to Throw Spear).

  • Gae Bulg: Attack/Defense Zone - Increase the Attack/Defense percentage to 5%.

Would these changes solve your issues with the ability?

#88

ooh sorry If I have missed it, Should have said that eariler.

#89

good effort! will come back and pickup my Swordman IF IMC ever implement stuff like this.

#90

Hey Cathexis. Personally I think the main problem with swordsman class lies with the fact we have no ability to set damaging fields on the ground like all other classes do. Because we have to be always there, always close and we have no effects that we can cast and continue blocking for example - we are always losing on damage.

Wizards I don’t need to explain. Clerics have cure, zaibas, druid grass, statues, PD’s burning, while being able to deal nice damage in the meantime of those taking effect ( if you couple that with bokor for example ). Archers have sapper’s mines, wugushi’s poison, falconer, fletcher’s magic arrow and bleed ( also, massive bleed I guess ).

What do warriors have to compare it with? Bleeding is the only one that comes to mind. That is where the damage problem lies. Not only because we always have to be close to deal damage - which is fine by me, we are supposed to anyhow - but mostly because unlike other classes we can’t use a skill and run around or block while the mob is taking damage.

I’d say balancing the skills around damage will improve our dps but at the same time due to all the cc in the game we won’t be able to utilize it ever to it’s maximum potential regardless. I think a better way is to introduce or change some current skills to have a ground based effects which will allow us freedom to fight without rooting our character in place for the effect of the skill.

2 Likes
#91

On cataphract part, i would really like more usage of the mount, not only hp def and evasion, maybe an attack atribute?

waiting for another spear class

#92

How big would it exactly be, according to your suggestion? Could you perhaps make a visual representation of it or something?

The problem is that both Stabbing and Pierce stab dirrectly in front of the character, so they don’t necessarily fit thematically because they are not attacking to the sides, like the Knight/Lord Knight skills did on RO.

However, the Cataphract class which fits more that thematic does have AoE skills which cover more ground on that. So I think that this is already covered by that class.

So level 15 = 15 hits of Catar Stroke. I will add this suggestion to the list.

I also think that charged skills give more freedom to Swordsman to deal more damage, as it is the same concept using with Wizards that have a casting time before dealing damage. Problem is that it is more difficult to execute as a melee character because they have to be at close range for it to work and most likely will take a lot of damage while charging.

But I do think there is value to increasing the number of hits on skills like Cartar Stroke.

Well, the idea is to make Highlander a better option for other builds too. That is why I also included Sword/Rapier/Spear+Dagger, as it gives another incentive for those higher ranked classes to pick Highlander on their builds.

I will add it to the list too!

All we can do is try! Thank you for your post.

This isn’t that much of a problem at higher levels. So I assume you would put the less cooldown/more skills at lower ranks?

Do you think it would be good to have a 0 CD skill option on both Peltasta and Highlander?

Or would it be better to have a way to increase auto-attack attack speed + damage (perhaps changing Concentrate to do that) since the first rank?

Would you increase the AoE Ratio naturally as a Swordsman character (I mean as it’s base value) or do it through skills? If so, what would be an appropriate number in your opinion?

And lastly, for hitboxes. Increase all of them? Or just a few particular skills? Which ones do you think would be best for this?

I will add this to the list. Since it is pretty big, I will just link the entire post on there.

You mean like a gap closer?

What if the debuff time simply got increased? Maybe 10~15 seconds?

I added your other suggestions to the list.

And you did, thanks! I added them to the list.

That is very interesting.

But at the same time, I think that it doesn’t fit the “thematic” of every Swordsman class. So I don’t think that every class might be able to do something like this.

I am thinking that skills like Earth Wave, Katon no Jutsu and maybe Seism could fit into this theme.

What skills do you have in mind?

And about introducing new ones: To what classes would you give them to?

You mean for the mount to attack with you, or for it to passively increase your Physical Attack?

We will get Lancer!

1 Like
#93

It isn’t much of a problem higher level because higher level swordman isn’t the one doing the hitting, or they can’t do the hitting. So it is just hidden but still there, but I won’t delve too deep into that, too many have spoken.

Peltasta is actually a fine DPS with skills (low damage of course) with 2x overheat at 12s, could use some better mechanic though.

Highlander needs the 0s cd skyliner, or at least 7s cd 5x overheat like archer twin arrow. Can up the mana a bit if needed.

Concentrate needs changing for sure, more hits is the best, buffing concentrate is more of a chore than a buff.

About AoE ratio, I feel like adding 2-3 to base value is reasonable, because of many swordman classes I play, only hoplite hit as many as I like it (finestra +3 AoE ratio)

Hit box, hmm … Generally I feel the hit box of all swordman skills should be increased (maybe except earth wave, that’s the only one I feel satisfy with). The hit box of swordman skills are not only small, but also in weird shape (like literally weird shape), taking a few examples:

  • Hoplite stabbing is wider, but reach less than an auto attack
  • Cataphract doom spike reach further, but is narrower than an auto attack
  • Peltasta umbo blow reach all around you, but the radius is less than an auto attack.
  • I don’t play much barbarian, but last time I remember it, cleave also have lower reach than an auto attack.
2 Likes
#94

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

#95

[Quote]How big would it exactly be, according to your suggestion? Could you perhaps make a visual representation of it or something?

The problem is that both Stabbing and Pierce stab dirrectly
in front of the character, so they don’t necessarily fit thematically
because they are not attacking to the sides, like the Knight/Lord Knight
skills did on RO.

However, the Cataphract class which fits more that thematic does have
AoE skills which cover more ground on that. So I think that this is
already covered by that class.[/quote]

Both skills in a situational scenario are meant to be used for CC (Stabbing = 15-20 hits & Pierce = 2 hits for medium / 3 hits for large). What i meant for both skills it doesn’t need to have a much wider range but rather a cone shape like this sample below.

X < |

Range should be always equal to the reach of the weapon of the characters current weapon and since spears have the longest reach on the game then it should be utilized by the game mechanic as well. With the middle of < dealing 100% of the damage and behind | dealing less damage. Also including the sides < dealing less damage also. Often times than not this is not the case and as most of the guys have said here that it mostly plays with your positioning of your character and mobs. For stabbing since you need to be stuck in position for at least 4-5 seconds.

Both skills are Physical and Pierce and with that in mind shouldn’t it be that it affects also the one behind regardless if the mobs are still alive or not.

X < ||

If thematically for the class then IMC should have removed the Pierce in the description of the skill itself, which i would doubt they will do cause this will severely impact this class circle.

Let me know if this clarifies for you or if you would still need screenshots if ever.

Is this confirmed? i’m cringing here in excitement XDDDD

1 Like
#96

I’d say every route you take should have access to 1-2 of them. Im a barb, doppel shinobi so if we do seism, katon and cyclone ( create an actual freaking cyclone like zoro in one piece for example ), I’d have access to 3 of such effects.

Id say cart wheel from highlander possibly or remove skyliner’s increased damage after bleed and make it open a dimensional rift cause you slashed the mob so hard that sucks nearby mobs in and deals damage.

Then you could have spear throw with a much higher cooldown that instead rains spears on an area. From a limited range though.

Fencer could be unique and have the skills that increase dodge instead create after-images that stay on the cell fencer cast the skill from for 3 seconds and take all the aggro and hate onto then instantly, meaning a fencer could use it, move around hit from the back rinse and repeat. Active dodging while not stopping to tank.

The only reason fletcher is the king of world bosses is because he can spam his skills while bleed, magic arrow and sapers traps deal damage on their own and just need to be recast on cooldown. I say lets have a level field.

1 Like
#97

Wow dood that’s a completely beautiful overhall and I sincerely think everything in what you just written there is enough to fill Circles 1 - 3 of shinobi should there be more circles

I sincerely think you should be skill director for all class overhau;s if you think you’re up for it

but sadly it seems IMC has no intention right now to vastly expand their manpower -__-

1 Like
#98

@Cathexis Well since I said my piece here are my suggestions quick easy and simple

Corsair
Jolly Roger should have an provoke on the same level as swashbuckling. This will solve the DPS vs Tank issue. Pelt offers nothing to DPS, but one circle of cor does add something to the DPS aspect at least. Immunity attribute should be %50.
Combo should add atk, def, and Res in large amounts. This will also strengthen Sword Tanking at the same time. Currently the “Lure” function of Jolly roger is buggy, does not work sometimes, and is weak, a 1 damage hit from pet can strip mobs off it.

Jolly Roger should offer an attribute static bonus to -%Magic Damage Taken, this should be toggled and when ON the area of affect of should be halved.

1 Like
#99

Well passively increasing the attack would be great, anything that ups the dps would be greatly wanted.

Didnt know lancer was confirmed :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: