Tree of Savior Forum

[Feedback][Open Discussion] Proposed changes to the Swordsman classes - by Cathexis

Class and Rank Swordsman
#61

I think that is almost impossible as long as swordsman being the most popular class.
The most popular class means nerf, otherwise the most unpopular class will get buffed , thats the Logic of Online Game.
The purpose is not to balance the classes, but to balance the number of players playing classes.

#62

That is dumb. That is super dumb… Class Balance is about, Class Balance, not making unpopular things popular. If you design like that you end up without overpowered nonsense characters.

Not to mention swordsman is highly unpopular. The only reason you see so many is they are good early game and bots. Look at the PVP rankings. Look at the discrimination builds without swashbuckling get.

The fact we are replaceable by Clerics, Archers and Wizards for DPS roles…

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#63

Its only because wearing big Sword and close combat has always been more appealing to the masses than other things, that being said its the same in every MMO and you wont see scaling problem as we have here in EVERY MMO.
Its most of the time the opposite where Sword / Gladiator tends to be utterly OP on most MMO’s cuz its a (bad) way to expand the life of a MMO by giving candys to the masses.

#64

You can spam “Punish” how? I can only use it once and it went on cooldown.

#65

Why don’t you actually learn to read the entire discussion.

#66

Maybe 5 % per level? 75% at max.
Archer has one that gives 25%, it also can apply to party members if I’m not wrong. 75% seems fair.

About 86 crit rating to give you 150?

Edit: may even be a bit over the top. 3-4% per level may be enough.

#67

Please include this in @Cathexis :

  1. On Corsair, change it to hooked units cannot be knocked back. Reason: Using Hook->Long Stride currently to close the gap knocks the hooked enemy backwards out of melee range, rendering our gap closer… useless. Or just add an attribute to disable knockback on Long Stride (or vice versa add attribute to disable knockback on Hooked enemies).

  2. Enable usage of Long Stride when dagger is equipped (everything else is allowed, including pistol and 1h spear + no sub weap, so why not dagger?)

  3. Using Keel Hauling currently REMOVES hook effect regardless duration, wasn’t like that previously. Please change it back to NOT removing hook after using Keel.

These are more pvp oriented changes that would fix Corsair into an actual PvP-viable circle, seeing that two skills are actually mainly to be used for pvp (hook and keel). Right now, even though it is said Corsair is a good pvp circle, it really isn’t, AT ALL. The inability of using a gap closer after hooking renders us useless.

This is coming from a lvl 280 Hop2-Cor2-Dragoon that got rejected from one of the leading PvP/GvG guilds in the server, due to the reason of being unable to close the gap after I land my hook, rendering the viability of PvP/GvG of this class next to nothing. Rejected not because I didn’t have the skills, but rather because there is not much viability of Corsairs in PvP/GvG. Now I have to reroll to a more PvP-viable class in the wizard tree, 100+ hours down the drain for nothing.

Note: All the changes I proposed can be easily done, not asking for out-of-this-world technology to be accompanied with the changes.

Thanks!

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#68

I did
“spam Punish multiple times on downed mobs”, Is that what you trying to say you can keep using Punish when the mob got knock down?

#69

You didn’t read the entire discussion. We’re talking about changing certain skills to do different things.

#70

What would you change for Moulinet? Cooldown? Overheat? Both?

How much less cooldown for Sky Liner? Including it’s 3 overheat or would you compensate with less overheat?

I will add these to the list!

I thought about the idea of messing with lifesteal / HP drain too. But I couldn’t really decide to what class give such power as if it proves to be too good then that would create an imbalance on the choice of classes as others wouldn’t be as good.

Maybe Highlander?

@Eroica

Thanks for your post, it contains a lot of useful information!

Even though you didn’t specifically list suggestions or an opinion on the proposed changes, you did list the pain points you found while playing your character, which helps to identify where the class is failing to deliver.

I added your suggestion to Concentrate and Gung Ho to the list.

Yeah, this could easily be done by giving proper scaling to every skill. The problem is that we don’t truly know if that is what IMC wants to do and if they do (or if the community convinces them to), it would be a change that involves everyone playing the game, as every tree and class would have this change.

There are a lot of things in the game that need improvement, including several of it’s mechanics and system.

I agree that some of these changes would be easier to implement, even if it takes some time to properly assess their impact on the game as their reach is more broad, it would be a fairly easy implementation.

At the same time, many of the classes of Swordsman are fairly underwhelming, some skills are just bugged or have no incentive to ever be added to a build, or their playing style is simply “boring”.

Which is why I believe that it is important to talk about these things too, as they need a fix or improvement regardless of the other things in the game that could be tweaked around to fix “DPS”.

So it doesn’t have to be one or another, it can be both.

If a scenario like this happens, then it requires more balancing. Which is what I believe will happen with that Wizard C3->Elementalist C3 build.

Depending on which path they want to take, it will be either nerfed or other builds will brought up to it’s level so there is more varieties in playing style options.

But it is not something that will stay like that forever.

Yeah, I have read that many times in this thread. I am going to update the suggestion.

What would you say is an adequate up-time value for a skill like this?

I think the problem is with the Pierce damage bonus it gives. It could be changed to Slash or have an attribute to change it to Slash, that way everyone benefits from it and not only Pierce-type skills/attacks.

Would that be fair?

I will add this to the list.

Added those. Thanks for the contribution!

##Update

(Besides adding more suggestions to the list. Let me know if I missed some).

Based on the feedback, I changed:

###Pain Barrier

  • Example:
  • Level 1:
    • Duration: 11 seconds
    • Cooldown: 35 seconds
  • Level 15:
    • Duration: 24 seconds
    • Cooldown: 35 seconds

Still having a down-time of 11 seconds at max level (compared to 10 seconds on the live version).

It also has a lower duration at all ranks, but it is trying to compensate for being able to clean Status Ailments on use.

If this still feels too powerful. Could it perhaps be reduced to clearing 1 to 2 Status Ailments on use?

Instead of removing every single debuff, it would only clean 1 or 2 of them. This would help for PvE against [Freeze] and similar effects, without being too broken in PvP.

At least the Swordsman has 1 way to fight back against those effects with which there is full control of it.

###Guardian

Lowered the scaling values:

  • Example:
  • Level 1
    • Physical Defense: 1.5% + 20
    • Physical Attack: -(0.5% + 14)
  • Level 15
    • Physical Defense: 22.5% + 90
    • Physical Attack: -(7.5% + 63)

I think it is better balanced this way, not was strong as the previous suggested change but still giving good enough reason to level this skill up.

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#71

An Overheat. If Redel and the others would have more damage, I think it would be fair if Moulinet has an increase too. The only difference between them would be Moulinet’s current long cooldown (35s).

Perhaps 10 or only 5 seconds of cooldown! It’s very low, but you can’t spam it like on kTOS.

#72

Added this one to the list too.

So 5~10 seconds with 2~3 Overheat?

What do you think of @fitzfeliz’s suggestion to increase it’s Overheat to 5 while keeping it keeping it’s current cooldown of 15 seconds?

Personally, I like both of these suggestions, I think they are better than mine. At least they should be much easier to implement as it is just changing couple values.

EDIT:

Or @igor_lavor’s one:

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#73

A lot of good ideas. I can’t choose one @@.

By the way, a curious fact about bleeding status and Sky Liner: Keel Hauling’s bleeding can affect enemies who can’t bleed for Cross Cut (tested in “stone” mobs), and SL applies double damage normally.

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#74

Concentrate - Agreed with the number of hits but if not possible then change it to duration instead of # hits with a fix amount damage per skill level only then remove the attribute bonus, with a downside of increasing the SP usage to +70/90
2. If above is not possible combine with gung ho, fixed amount of time duration of 15 sec per level + sp 30/50 per usage per level

Stabbing and Pierce - There are two issues for both, 1st max distance of skill, 2nd max AoE of skill, if we compare this to Brandish spear or Bowling Bash of Knights/LK from RO, both skills have a max AoE of 3x2 cells in front of the toon. Based from my exp on both skills if there are 3 monsters infront of you + 2 back only the 3 monsters infront will be hit first, and if those 3 monsters die then remainder of the skill will only hit the 2 monsters next. This should not be the case that in terms of DPS or CC, all 5 monsters should be hit all at the same time.

  1. increase max distance to hit and max AoE but with penalty for the AoE, 100% on the middle and only 75% on the sides.
  2. if #1 is not possible add 3/4 overheat charges for both skills and decrease CD of -10 seconds.

Finestra - Agreed to this, if not possible add a fix amount of multiplier x 0.75 of toons STR for damage and x0.35 for Block

I’m still at only c1 of hoplite and have already noticed this issue. Also for the current meta of the game if we scour the forums is that the only job for this class is lure/tank regardless of what circles we take in the later stages this will be our only role, feeling like the gimped 3.5gb of gtx 970 by nvidia.

#75

I want to have input regarding this topic, as my Swordman is invested in what might come of it. To keep it short I want to talk about the Highlander suggestions.

Highlander
General Overview

Right now I think that Highlander is alright.

Cartar Stroke

Problem: Scaling into higher levels.

Proposed change:
    New Attribute:
        Required Circle: Highlander C3
        Effect: Reduces the casting time of Cartar Stroke by 15% per attribute level (75% at max attribute level).
        Max attribute level: 5
        Penalty: Overcharge reduced by 1

Justification
    Better scaling into higher levels as well as an incentive to add more points into this skill. It also becomes better at Highlander C3 as it has too long of a casting time to become truly usable in practice, which should be solved by the proposed attribute.

Cross Guard

Problem: No real problem besides inconsistency. Why is it that every other skill on the Highlander kit has no weapon restriction, but this one does?

Proposed change:
    Required Stance: TwoHandSword, TwoHandSpear, OneHandSwordDagger, OneHandSwordPistol, OneHandSpearDagger, OneHandSpearPistol, RapierDagger, RapierPistol.

Justification
    It allows for more variety of builds, giving Highlander another reason to become a solid choice in builds looking for more combat utility.

Sky Liner

Problem: Scaling into higher levels.

Proposed change:
    New Attribute:
        Required Circle: Highlander C3
        Effect: Reduces Sky Liner's cooldown by 5 seconds when used on Bleeding targets.
        Max Attribute Level: 1
        Penalty: Removes Sky Liner's double damage on Bleeding targets.

Justification
The new attribute looks to give a choice between burst damage and sustained damage to the Highlander and compensates for the difference with the version on kTOS, without being as powerful

I agree Catar stroke could be improved but instead, I think instead of giving it a new attribute, simply make it do a number of hits equal to the level of charge, vis a vis multi shot.

I disagree with the blanket suggestion to unhinge Cross Guard from weapon restrictions. Cross guard is the number one reason to equip two handed swords, better than their attack, or the crit attribute highlanders have. I would concede that it could be usable with any two handed weapon, only so long as highlanders gain the ability to equip such weapons.

That said, I think the Highlander skill tree could be improved by adding an extra 2 hand weapon equip attribute at each circle. C2 highlander could gets 2 hand spears, C3 could get… staves? Maybe make a physical attack weapon class that’s 2 handed and does blunt.

I think skyliner is fine as is. If your attribute were to be implemented, it better have a toggle, b/c I wouldn’t invest in it but if I did I sure as hell would want it turned off.

As an aside, the problem with the swordman class isn’t that they are underpowered, rather that archers and mages are overpowered into the late game. 2 simple fixes for this. For archers, change most of their attacks and skills to not seek target and to having projectile speed and collision. Some already are area based, but what I mean is that for most attacks, make the attack hit the first target in line, then continuing to the next target along the vector till the AoE ratio is met. Plus, if the target, even if locked, is moving at an angle to the archer, the attack or skill should miss or have an increased chance to miss. (Arrows generally don’t change trajectory, you know)

Mages are fine as they are, but IMC should implement better means of obtaining elemental defense and magic defense.

One last thing, with regards to CC, while I realize it is mechanically important for supports and others to use their CC, it is generally a bad mechanic to lean on from a meta perspective. Both people in pvp are there to play a game, but only one person actually gets to play if infinite CC is involved. Perhaps a mechanic could be introduced that increases your resistance to a status effect if you have recently been effected by the same.

edit: I failed to keep it short or stay on highlander topic, sorry.

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#76

Most of our mechanical issues stem from glaring flaws in melee combat and PvE encounter design, but I’d rather not achieve parity among DPS classes by making the rest of them suffer from those flaws like we do.

This is because IMC is highly unlikely to redesign their ranged, magic, or melee combat systems, so the best we can do is suggest changes which aid us in mitigating said flaws in game design, and ensure that we are adequately rewarded for more attentive and precise gameplay.

#77

i’m thinking about Pain Barier. A skill that benefits all. High level Pain Barrier more up time. And the effect halve on pvp. guess this will be fair enough. life steal to the basic, you still need to hit too. not really being too op. but do help solve all swordsman concern in end game content which too fagile to anything although with slightly “high” hp pool

#78

I think you guys couldnt see my suggestions. Well, here they are again:

If you care about swordsman balance, i recommend you give a quick look in this topic.

#79

Well, after so many complaining topics and IMC keep silence about the issues, I’m starting to lose hope

But here goes nothing

The main issue while leveling with swordman lie in the fact that the down time of skills is so big but the auto attack damage is just mediocre. That couple with tiny hit box and generally not enough AoE attack ratio make leveling more of a pain.

Swordman is supposed to lure mobs right (swashbuckling and provoke attribute, you can’t say otherwise). Let take an example with cataphract, the supposedly best AoE attacker on swordman tree.

  • Earthwave: 15s cd, 4 AoE ratio (plus 4 from spear so it’s like 8)
  • Doom spike: 22s cd, 3 AoE ratio (7 with spear)

Now usually when you go lure (with or without swashbuckling) you get 6-8 mobs on average. With the norm of mobs having 2 AoE def ratio, your skills hit 4 mobs at most (sometimes 5) so you cannot hit and kill all the mobs your lured, no matter how strong you are (and you are not strong at all lol)

After throwing all skills you are present with 15s down time that you can only use your auto attack, which is both slow and weak, and at melee range as well.

Hence the swordman leveling paradox:

  • Lure many mobs = hard to kill them all
  • Lure few mobs = slow clear rate because you are melee and need to run to them every time.

I hope to see swordman classes with either more skills, or less cd, or both. And more damage on top of that.

I mean where is the balance when my full DEX archer hit 2x more damage than my full STR swordman, while being 50 level lower?

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#80

Thank you for making this thread @Cathexis

I agree with these changes especially for the Shinobi part :slight_smile:

However, I have suggestions in mind about the changes in Shinobi Class. People might disagree with this; however, please take note that this is my personal suggestions.
This took me 2 days to complete this. I just hope the Staffs will consider this lol.
I’m doing revisions on skills of Shinobi to be more little bit realistic.

#Additional items for Shinobi:

  • Shuriken: It costs 500 silver each.

  • Smoke Bomb: It costs 500 silver each.

#Additional Active Skills:

I would like to replace Mijin No Jutsu with these following skills:

  • Raining Shuriken (Max level 5, Pierce-Type):
    You will choose a location and Locks the target within AoE Radius 3 and fires deadly Shurikens. It deals 735 damage each Shuriken. Each hit releases 2 Shurikens. Last for 3.5 seconds. (This skill can be used while moving or running). Consumes Shuriken. (Can be copied by clones)

Note: the damage scale is in Max level.

  • Slash and Dash Attack! (Max level 5, Overheat 2, Slash-Type, AoE radius 4, Element: Dark):
    A skill combination of dashing through the enemy/enemies while slashing the enemy by spinning below this body with a deadly attack. The Shinobi will go pass through the enemy after the animation. It deals 895 damage. (Can be copied by clones)

Note: the damage scale is in Max level.

  • Dodge Rolling (Max level 1, Overheat 2):
    A basic evasive maneuver that dodges all attack. Cooldown 30 seconds. Consumes 2 stamina. Cooldown 28 seconds. (Cannot be copied by clones)

  • Kusari Gama No Jutsu (Max level 1, Slash-type):
    A technique that uses long range chain and sickle weapon dealing fast and deadly damage to the enemies rapidly. All skills and the equipped weapons will be disabled and will be replace by a chain and sickle weapon. The damage scale depends on the skill level. Deals 835 damage + the number of DEX points per hit . This weapon cannot be compared to 1h-sword,2h-sword, dagger, pistol,1h-spear,2h-spear, and Rapier. Consumes 13 SP Point per Hit. Cannot be copied by clones.

  • Change Stance (Max level 1):
    This skill can swap from using Ninjutsu to Tai Jutsu and vice-versa. When in Tai Jutsu, you will be restricted in using all skills and your weapons. You will be automatically use [Fists] as your main and sub weapon (Damage scale of Fists depending on your equipped weapons damage + 10% additional Physical Damage. You will use your body as a weapon, and unique Tai Jutsu skills. Clones will disappear once you activate this skill, and cannot be copied by Clones. Cooldown 5 seconds.

TAI JUTSU SKILLS:

Ninjas/Shinobi doesn’t only use weapons, but also Unarmed Combat they call it Tai Jutsu. That’s the reason why I created the Change Stance skills. People might think this is OP but take note of the skills below, and see for yourself.
Take note that there is no need for you to spend skill points for the Tai-Jutsu skills. Once you get the Change stance, you will automatically get all skills and they’re considered as level 1, and cannot be enhanced by Divine Might.

  • Chi Punch (Max level 1, Overheat 3, Strike-type):
    A technique using Chi to enhance your fist and strikes the enemy uses both his Body and Spirit that deals 685 damage + 8% HP of the enemy. It consumes 1 stamina. Cooldown 21 seconds after all Overheat are consumed.

  • Heaven’s Kick (Max level 1, Overheat 3, Strike-type):
    A technique blessed by the heavens to deliver massive blow to the enemy. It deals 745 damage + 40% Physical damage of the Shinobi. Consumes 2 stamina. Cooldown 21 seconds after all Overheat are consumed.

  • Growling Tiger’s Uppercut (Max level 1, Strike-Type):
    A technique learned from the white tiger’s ferocious roar and translated into uppercut maneuver hit the target’s body. It deals 675 damage. The enemy will be vulnerable to all incoming Strike-Type Damage within 6 seconds. Cooldown 23 seconds. Consumes 3 stamina.

  • Rising Dragon (Max level 1, Strike-Type)
    A technique learned and blessed by the great Ryu. Uses a Highly Advanced Uppercut attack to the enemy and flies to the sky, the Shinobi will jump and captures the enemy and smash the enemy on the ground. This deals 1485 damage and knock’s down the captured enemy. Deals 975 damage to enemies within AoE radius of 8 (The captured enemy will no longer deal damage with this). Cooldown 63 seconds. Consumes 7 stamina.

  • Dodge Rolling: this skill will remain in Tai Jutsu mode, and still the same.

#Additional Class attributes (Passives):

  • Bunshin No Jutsu: Weapon Mastery (Max Level 1):
    Clones can now use 2H-spears, 2H-swords, and a sub-weapon Dagger.

  • Ninja Ken (Max Level 3):
    When equipped with 1H-sword, 2H-sword, and Rapier, it provides additional physical damage of +5% per level. At maxed level, it has a chance of Bleeding (The damage of bleeding is determined by Character’s STR with a duration 2 seconds) to the enemy by 8% chance (This applies to all Slash-Type Damage dealt by the Shinobi only not even the Clones). You cannot choose Yari No Jutsu if you choose this.

Note: this is in level 1.

  • Yari No Jutsu (Max Level 3):
    When equipped with 1H-spear and 2H spear, it provides additional physical damage of +5% per level. At maxed level, it has a chance of [Armor-Break] of 10% (2 seconds duration) to the enemy by 8% chance (This applies to all Pierce-Type Damage dealt by the Shinobi only not even the Clones) You cannot choose Ninja Ken if you choose this.

Note: this is in level 1.

  • Shadow Weapon Assault (Max level 1):
    When equipped with a Dagger, it immediately connects to the main-hand when attacking the enemy without a delay by 15% chance (It applies only in auto-attacks. This can be activated without manually clicking the Sub-Weapon Attack). This affects the Clones as well.

  • Inton No Jutsu (Max level 1):
    When your HP reached 20% and below, immediately you will throw a Smoke Bomb creating a [Smoke Screen] (AoE radius 6 with 2 seconds duration. Enemies within range are [Blinded] until the remainder of the effect), and be teleported randomly within 180 range. You will gain 2 seconds of stealth after that. (Can be used on both stance)
    Cooldown 132 seconds, and consumes 3 Smoke Bombs.

  • Enchance: Kusari Gama No Jutsu (Max level 3):
    Improves critical rate by 7% per level. At level 3, inflicts [Bleeding] whenever you use Kusari Gama by a chance of 10%. Deals Splash Damage as well within AoE radius 3. At 8th attack, it captures the enemy last for 2.3 seconds and you will pull the chain in order for you to get near the enemy’s location.

Note: this is in level 1.

  • Untouchable (Max level 1):
    Whenever you use [Dodge Rolling], it leaves Caltrops (Last for 1.5 seconds duration) to slow down the enemy who is chasing you and gives +20% movement speed in 3 seconds after that. (Can be used on both stance)

  • Sharpened Shurikens (Max level 1):
    Whenever you use [Raining Shurikens], it has a chance of 7% to cause [Bleeding] whoever gets hit by the Shurikens.

  • Dash in the Shadows (Max level 1):
    After you used [Slash and Dash Attack!], you will be in Stealth mode for 2 seconds.

  • Be one with the Shadows (Max level 1):
    Whenever you are in Stealth Mode, you will gain +30% movement speed. It gives additional 1 second duration to all Stealth buffs.

  • Raining Shuriken Attribute (Max level 100):
    Gives additional Damage by 1% per level.

  • Slash and Dash Attack Attribute (Max level 100:
    Gives additional Damage by 1% per level.

  • Kusari Gama No Jutsu (Max level 50)
    Gives additional Damage by 1% per level.

  • Tai Jutsu Mastery (Max level 5):
    Whenever in Tai jutsu stance, your equipped weapons will be replaced by Fists. Fists will be considered as Blunt-Type Weapon and Strike-Type Damage. It gives +5% HP and +2% chance to resist to stuns, knock backs, and knock downs per level. In level 5, whenever in Tai Jutsu stance, when your health reaches 20% or below, it gives you +25% Physical Damage Reduction and Magical Damage Reduction and improves your attack speed +25% for 7 seconds.

Note: this is in level 1.

  • Rising Dragon’s Fury (Max level 1):
    Decreases Cooldown by 15 seconds. Enemies within the AoE raidus will be knocked down when you hit the ground.

  • Deadly Combo (Max level 1):
    This utilizes the use Chi Punch and Heaven’s Kick. In every combo, it deals additional damage to the enemy. These are the following Combos:
    2 Chi Punch + 1 Heaven’s Kick = deals additional damage to the enemy of 200…
    2 Heaven’s Kick + 1 Chi Punch = deals additional damage to the enemy 235
    3 Chi Punch + 1 Heaven’s Kick = deals additional damage to the enemy 285
    3 Heaven’s Kick + 2 Chi Punch = deals additional damage to the enemy 315

  • Growling Tiger’s Might (Max level 1):
    Whenever the enemy is hit by [Growling Tiger’s Uppercut], it slows the enemy for 1.3 seconds.

  • Fist of Fate (Max level 1):
    Whenever you use [Chi Punch], it has a chance to [Armor-Break(reduces the enemy’s physical armor by 15%)] by 6%. Last for 2 seconds.

  • Swift Kick (Max level 1):
    Whenever you use [Heaven’s Kick], it has a chance to [Slow} the enemy by 5%. Last for 2 seconds.

  • Chi Punch Attribute (Max level 50):
    Gives additional Damage by 1% per level.

  • Heaven’s Kick Attribute (Max level 50):
    Gives additional Damage by 1% per level.

  • Growling Tiger’s Uppercut Attribute (Max level 50):
    Gives additional Damage by 1% per level.

  • Rising Dragon Attribute (Max level 50):
    Gives additional Damage by 1% per level.

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