[Feedback][Open Discussion] Proposed changes to the Swordsman classes - by Cathexis

[igor_lavor]

I need some context for that picture please. Providing a picture without context proves nothing.

For example, my Archer C3 could deal that much damage with Multishot if i were using a 2-H Bow against a Flying-type mob at lvl 150 with shitty equipment.

[patrik_lennon]

Finestra is way to strong already, when compared to other swordsman skills. If hoplite were given % scaling with their massive strength then no one would play anything other than hoplite. Maybe give it % increase to crit rating instead of flat crit rating so that a bit of investment in dex would be necessary.

[varuna]

I need some context for that picture please. Providing a picture without context proves nothing.

For example, my Archer C3 could deal that much damage with Multishot if i were using a 2-H Bow against a Flying-type mob at lvl 150 with shitty equipment.

That is my point entirely. Why do you insist on buffing a skill that does not need to be buffed? I don’t get it. It’s clearly not broken and it’s clearly not underpowered.

[igor_lavor]

Because the damage is inconsistent, it’s purely reliant on Crosscut’s bleeding. Did you even read my post?

Anyway, this isn’t the point of this topic. We should be discussing whether my change is appropriate or not, what’s your opinion on making Skyliner’s additional damage effect not exclusive to Bleeding status?

[varuna]

Anyway, this isn’t the point of this topic. We should be discussing whether my change is appropriate or not, what’s your opinion on making Skyliner’s additional damage effect not exclusive to Bleeding status?

IMO, I think Zornhau should inflict a debuff that increases slash type skills. Crown already inflicts shock so I dunno why Zornhau inflicts shock. This would overall boost most of swordsman skill tree, including skyliner if you didn’t read my original post.

I just dunno if or when we are ever going to get kToS changes or if they plan on even keeping the game the same.

[TacioDaito]

Swordsman Rework Suggestion

Disclaimer: This is a TENTATIVE to fix the balance issues that affect negatively the [Swordsman Base] class and, as a consequence, the entire swordsman class tree. Please note that you are not obliged to agree with those suggestions. Discuss healthily about this topic and avoid to exit it territory. *CC =Crowd Control ( stun, knock back) The text will be a little long, so be prepared. Know critical issues related to the swordsmans: [1] Lack of competitive damage on the ""late game ""(Lv.230…

[Cathexis]

I’ll take advantage of this and ask you if Pouncing works with mount since I have my doubts.

It does.

I just want Rodelero move to Rank 3 instead of Rank 4 for reasons that I’ll need a wall of text I’m lazy to write about.

That will be interesting to read.

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From what i heard, the damage amount isnt that drastic, and i mean it is pretty amazing for what it does. for that duration if you dont attack at all and let your allies destroy the enemies, you get x2 drop and exp. but your proposed change to leave the duration be, and instead make it so you gain 10% exp/drop per level is definetly more appealing than starting it at 1second and moving it to 10s at lv 10. being able to gain triple the exp would make it worth actually capping in dopple c2

That is fair, I am going to include it as a second possible option.

i still believe it should be a Swordsman C1 skill and Pelt should get a skill that allows its user to take damage in place of a selected ally. This makes Pelt more of a tanky route character, while not forcing Swordsmen at any point to have to grab Pelt for Swashbuckling at any point.

I think this would only be good if IMC confirms that they want the Swordsman tree to follow the “tank” role at all stages.

This will be able to tell people that they should expect to “tank” by picking this tree, even if just a little bit. At least I think it is better to let everyone that this is the intended purpose they have for this game.

i think the KTOS version is fine, its pretty much what you proposed but without the extra 20% resistance to all harmful ailments, and without the drawback. Whats overkill is the duration and the fact you can remove debuffs when using it. because Control status is reduced in pvp and skills go on CD after you use em, i feel kTOS’s pain barrier is quite enough to deal with this menace in pvp.

I think it would be fine if it remains like on kTOS.

I would like a way for Swordsman to break at least once from hard CC, but that cannot be used that frequently, but if this falls under the unpopular opinion then I think that leaving it as it is on kTOS is fine too.

EDIT:

@shinchronox

For your change on Deeds of Valor, do you mean:

Level 1: 100% EXP + 10% (from the proposed change) = 110% EXP
Level 10: 100% EXP + 100% (from the proposed change) = 200% EXP

or

Level 1: 10% EXP and 10% double drop chance
Level 10: 100% EXP and 100% double drop chance

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I believe that such a metric exists, but I’m not sure if the client stores such information. I did encounter a visual glitch a few days ago which randomly displays the hitboxes of NPCs, monsters, and skills…but I haven’t been able to consistently replicate it.

That would be good to see, if it is on the client then perhaps an add-on to enable them could be made.

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My biggest issue would be with any changes that involve movement of skills to different circles.

Those changes are mainly to give more justification to taking the Circle 3 of a class and it also gives more room for making said skills stronger.

Do you think that going into the Circle 3 of those classes is rewarding enough?
Or how would you change it so that they feel rewarding?
New skills perhaps?

Since MMOs are not new and ToS is not in a vacuum I will give examples of how a single item can make or break a class/Job.

I think this is a problem with the game in general and it would be more appropriate to have this with everyone involved in the game rather than Swordsman.

My changes more than trying to balance Swordsman against it’s own classes or other classes, are looking to just bring more life or even “fun” into the classes, trying to fix their pain points besides how buggy some skills are.

It doesn’t have to be one or another though.

Skills can be improved and so can the equipment on the game and the stats system.

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I think that’s the point though. When you go with an offhand weapon, you cannot block. It doesn’t really make much sense to be able to block with a dagger or pistol.

It is more like a Parry. The idea is giving these classes the ability to do so without relying on a shield. The cooldown/duration/SP or other factors can be moved around, but in essence I think it is fair to give these other builds a way to parry.

We could make it (and Block from Peltasta/Rodelero too) be more active instead of just being able to hold it forever. Making a successful Parry or Block could reward the player with increased damage as Cross Guard currently does.

Just an idea. I think it would be fair to have a Parry option for classes that do not use a shield as it is possible to Parry with different combinations of weapons.

Off-hand weapons such as the Arde Dagger already makes most 1H swords deal more damage than 2H swords. Giving them block as well… well, what’s the point of wielding a 2H sword other than switching to it to use for skills?

That is only at low levels. 2H weapons deal more damage at higher levels.

But I would say that is a problem with the daggers/weapons themselves, rather than the skills. This same problem happens with other classes outside of this tree too.

Those daggers are a little bit too strong at early levels.

There really is no point in investing into the skill. As a Barbarian, you have too many skills to invest into and it doesn’t help that you need to invest 15 skill points into it to make it somewhat useful. It’s like why would you invest more than 1 point into Cure other than increasing the damage a slight bit?

I realize that there are many 1 point wonder skills but that’s how they designed the the game to be. Most classes have 1 point wonder skills and you would have to overhaul not just swordsman, but literally every class in the game if you don’t want those kinds of skills.

In my opinion, every skill that behaves like that is going to eventually be fixed to be more rewarding for leveling it up, through balance patches. Which will come through either the developers or suggestions from players, like this thread I am trying to create.

Targe Smash deals double damage vs frozen and petrified targets. You would be giving Rodelero the highest dps in the game when paired up with a cryomancer. Let’s also not forget about High Kick which further increases your damage. The class is supposed to focus on tanking, disabling and debuffing not dps.

It wouldn’t though, the damage would still be outclassed by many builds out there.

But I think that it could use an improvement to become a better damage source for Rodelero. Maybe decreasing it’s cooldown in general without going to 0 CD, or limiting the amount of times the bonus damage to Petrified/Frozen enemies can be applied within a few seconds, etc.

But at the moment Rodeleros need a better source of damage than what they currently have.

It’s like saying Blessing doesn’t do much because it only adds in +170 damage. But when you multiply that by 5 party members it’s +850 add damage.

+50~100 P.ATK from Squire * 5 party members… let alone that it takes 0 buff slots making this skill have no downsides. The only problem is that you need Lv15 Weapon Maintenance to start making it somewhat noticeable.

It doesn’t do much if anything at higher levels. Same as Concentrate.

Priest damage buffs fall off really hard late game and at max level, with the exception of Aspersion and Stone Skin.

Have you seen the damage everyone is dealing at level 250~280?

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I’ll just like to say I’d like to see Corsair’s Jolly Roger buffs fixed from sticking on the screen. Your entire buff bar ends up being taken by finished pillaging icons. @_@

Can you provide me with a screenshot so that I can include it on the post as an additional suggestion, please?

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i would say lower cooldown, the skill is slow so even with overheat you would have hard time finding situations were you can use it without risk.

Would 25 seconds be good?

i would rather give it the twin shot treatment and increase the overheat count to 5 so you can have 10 Sky Liners with double damage per cross cut total cooldown instead of just 6 (4000% vs 2400%)

Oh, this one is good. I like it. I am going to add it to the list.

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Finestra is way to strong already, when compared to other swordsman skills. If hoplite were given % scaling with their massive strength then no one would play anything other than hoplite. Maybe give it % increase to crit rating instead of flat crit rating so that a bit of investment in dex would be necessary.

What do you think would be a fair % to give to Finestra?

I think that at one point Finestra was supposed to be like that, but they changed it to flat value instead.

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[shinchronox]

For your change on Deeds of Valor, do you mean:

Level 1: 100% EXP + 10% (from the proposed change) = 110% EXPLevel 10: 100% EXP + 100% (from the proposed change) = 200% EXP

or

Level 1: 10% EXP and 10% double drop chanceLevel 10: 100% EXP and 100% double drop chance

i meant the 2nd one you listed added to the already existing value of “EXP/DROP x2”. so by the time its lv 10, you’d gett 200% EXP/Drop Chance + 100% which would make it a total of 300% , and maybe even rename the skill “Triple Pay Earn”

[MattBR]

I agree with many suggestions and disagree with many too. I’ll not comment each suggestion, but I miss more damage and charges for Doppel C2 skills too.

[Eroica]

Please don’t nerf finestra, its pretty much the reason to go for Hoplite. Pierce ends up weak later on, stabbing has the hitbox of a shot needle and if you use it without the pain barrier, odds are that you’ll get knocked down or back and its a half minute wait to use it again. Also, spear toss has a terrible long animation.

[Cathexis]

I agree with many suggestions and disagree with many too.

That is great!

I’ll not comment each suggestion

That…not so much.

It would be amazing if you could expand a little more on this. We need everyone to give their thoughts on this conversation. We need more input from more people to reach a better understanding of each class and how we can improve them.

Can’t really work without knowing which ones you agree or disagree with. Or maybe you have other ideas that could be better overall.

Only you know the experience you have had with the Swordsman tree and I believe that is valuable information that we all can use to craft better feedback for IMC to improve the game.

Even if you only comment on how to improve Doppel C2, that would help a lot already.

[AnitaCafe]

If another Corsair doesn’t do it first, I’ll post you a screenshot tomorrow during my daily grind. It’s bothersome but I don’t believe it takes up actual buffs, you just can’t view what you’re actually buffed with from other party members.

[MattBR]

As you wish \o

I agree with your suggestions for Doppel and Dragoon. Don’t have much experience with others to comment.

For Highlander, I prefer one more charge for Moulinet (current a better skill than Zornhau and Zucken), Sky Liner with less cooldown (without a penalty) and don’t agree about Cross Guard.
I think would be better if 2H weapons have a defensive stance when you press “C” key.
Instead of CG would be great if we have a new kind of buff or a new aggro skill (not better than Swash Buckling).

Edit: oh, I almost forgot. Vertical Slash needs an urgent increase base damage. As you know, the bonus damage is about +10% for each debuff. Increase this bonus would be not a good idea, but if the skill had a good damage like Seism… Not exactly 1700, but 1200~1500.

And for Corsair, I miss a fix in Jolly Roger increase damage and a new feature: Corsairs would be always the party leader in random (queue) parties. Just for the stacks.

I would remove “Unlock Chest” skill and “Obtain Chest Item” attribute. Instead of them I would create a new attribute which will allow you to open every chest with no need to have a key (max attribute lvl 5), and a new offensive skill.

[AnitaCafe]

Corsair Jolly Roger bug Here we go.

[MattBR]

I’ve already saw about 4 bugs in JR . IMC senpai, notice us.

[silverguy]

I hope swordsman get some hp drain skill. Swordman too much downtime when solo and party without healer.

[Eroica]

Here are my thoughts. I’m a 277 Sw1/Pel1/Hop3/Dop1/Drg1 swordsman. I run all content besides Earth Tower daily. I have two semi-statics I run with. Either as filler tank or DPS. I only do PVE on this character.

My overall impressions of Swordsman is that its a very skill intensive class with a very high degree of risk and many drawbacks while at the same time does not feel rewarding enough. I’ll remain play my Swordsman with hopes of changes and fixes but its very irritating.

Swordie c1
Gung Ho:

Only remains useful until around rank3. With Finestra, Conc, Deeds, Pain Barrier. We need to many buffs to be at our full potential and the SP cost and short duration is very annoying. In the end isn’t worth it. If they want to keep it weak, I think its duration should be increased, its penalty removed. 4/10

Concetrate:

Although better at later levels than GuHo its still very weak. Every class has skills that remain useful for the duration of the game at rank 1, except for wizard less so. Despite being our second best skill its still not very good. The duration needs to be longer. Either remove the per hit limitation or fuse it together with GungHo. 5/10

Bash: The attribute makes it kinda useful, but not any longer as I can’t solo at this level. Things hit me like a truck and I can’t kill them fast enough. 6/10

Pain Barrier: My favorite swordie skill. It can save my putt and lets me perform attacks without being canceled by knockdown or back. I wish the cooldown was shorter but no complaints other than that. 9/10

Peltasta c1:

Umbo Blow: I only have a shield on when tanking meaning I no longer use it often. Would rather conserve SP for something else. Don’t even remember if I got the attribute for it. 6/10

Rim Bow: I have one level of this and I actually really like it. I can push mobs into AoEs and push them away from squishies when they stick into them. I would never, ever hope to do damage with this but I really love the pushback. 9/10

Swashbuckling: The reason people put ‘LF Pelt’ at shout. It is a good skill and lets me join groups easier. I can’t complain. 10/10

The defense buff completely replaces gung-ho. The evasion attribute is excellent. 9/10

Hoplite: A love story.

I had a blast playing as Hoplite from most of circle 1-3. The nice weapon reach and the strong auto attacks encouraged a very active style of play. Sure you were tough enough to stand there and take hits but zig zaging and poking enemies were a whole lot of fun.

Finestra: Is always on. When I’m tanking, when I’m dpsing and when I’m soloing. Even without a shield it is very worth it. Absolutely no complaints. Its one of the skills I truly consider functional. 10/10

Stabbing: Stabbing is not as powerful as some people claim it to be. Its AoE rating is low, the hitbox is tiny, even with a 10 reach spear. Use it without painbarrier and its likely going to waste. I try to use it with single-two or three targets, preferrably with spear lunge. Remains useful even at rank7 this way. 8/10

Pierce: Before rank 6, it was the other skill you used when Stabbing was on cooldown. Its practically useless against small and decent against large and bosses. The bleeding attribute enhances its purpose as rotation filler later in the game. 6/10

Spear Lunge: The debuff is extremely useful and will remain so. Bosses tend to resist it, which is fine but can be annoying. I only took one rank of it for the debuff. It’s easily in my top 3 of Hoplite.

Spear Toss: Was extremely nice at c3. However at rank 7 it practically goes unused. The animation takes forever and combined with the low cooldown of dragoon skills, it is quite taxing SP wise. At least I can throw it at my feet without needing to pick it up again. 6/10

Dopple was great until 220+ started but I think at C1 is a great class.

Deeds of valor: Great skill if you got a healer or can avoid most damage. However, if you have quick weapon switch you’ll realize the attack speed portion of the buff doesn’t work. Meaning you need to switch back and forth to acquire it. The skill isn’t working as intended.

Cyclone: Still love it. Still use it. I heard it only applies to level 3 of the skill meaning its missing out on duration and damage. Only reason I cannot consider it perfect.

Double pay Earn: I use it and abuse it. Letting enemies be killed by party while the buff is active is great. They’ll probably fix though. 8/10

Mord: Hate this skill. Damage only good against cloth and the knock down is almost a homerun. I’d rather put more points into DPE instead. 3/10

Dragoon: The end of the road.

All Dragoon skills are good, powerful and have short cooldowns. I cannot comment on ‘Gey Bulge’ because I haven’t taken it. My complaint with Dragoon is that its very SP intensive otherwise it fixes some of the previous shortcomings of the other classes.

I’d just give the non centrifuge skills more reach. Otherwise no complaints other than it needs to deal as much damage as other rank 7 classes.

This is my skill lowdown of my Swordsman path. Next time I’ll voice my overall opinions.

Please read this thread IMC!

[shinchronox]

Another change id like is more of an overhaul change to every class

Atm currently the only class that really has “combos” is swordsman. and the combos dont exactly put swordsman on par with the others in the game. i mean sure +150% damage is nice but when you have classes that regularly give 50% or 250% damage off scaling, it kind of makes it ehhh…

but not every skill in the game scales and i feel this can be worked around by making it so every skill scales in some way . that way it gives each and every skill uniqueness and personality, and it doesnt become that skill you replace once you hit a higher rank on the class. every skill in the game more or less suffers from this, to the point that using some skills from rank 1 or 2 to any branch in the endgame justl looks pathetic.

[lost_heavens_twiligh]

These changes are perfect. Honestly, there is just no other way to put it.

I just hope the GM’s pay attention.

[nazrious]

I am not trying to come across as dismissive or argumentative, however at this moment the entire swordman system needs an overhaul before tweaking the smaller variables.

Major points that can be agreed upon, by the majority if not the super majority.

1. Sword Damage is very low compared to other classes, even the best DPS builds can not come close to Archer/Wiz but for a short burst.
2. Resistance and Def scale horribly be it through traits, gear, or otherwise.
3. There is only one active taunt making Pel the only option should you want an active taunt.
4. There are a ton of issues throughout all classes that cause skills to bug/not work properly or as described
5. Movement + Lag kill DPS and Tanking for sword since we are melee, thus in range of damage and out of rangeof attacks should targets move

So while the time for skill analysis might come, probably not soon, there are simple quick fixes. Even if these fixes cause some imbalance or are not sufficient it would be better than the status quo.

It would be easy and balanced to roll out an increase in all stats and gear tailored to Sword of 5% every patch for 4 patches ( 4 weeks basically) then an additional 5% every month until satisfied.

Sure you would have whiners but they would be the minority, because even a 20% increase for sword would not be sufficient DPS wise, and tanking wise it simply benefits other classes. so a slow and steady increase to find equilibrium and then a look at skills. Its just a cart before the horse thing.

tl:dr tweaking skills when sword as a whole needs an overhaul is a waste.

Aside:
I don’t like the idea at this low of a level incentivising circle 3, is not a good idea, sure at lvl 600 but not now. The allure of this game is the variety offered in a mix of circles from different jobs. Hop over to the wiz section lot of complaints about being forced to go wiz3 ele3. I would drop the game Even if they gave free circle reset if it meant I HAD to go sword 3 hop3 for DPS or Sword3 Rod3 for Tanking, right now builds for both dps and tanking are close enough that there are many viable builds for top tier performance not just 1.