What can i say, a hell of a work as usual…
If i could just add a few things :
BARBARIAN :
Warcry : increase its range to the same lenghts as the PELASTA one, because it makes no sense as it is the same kind of skill but different orientation but the AoE is so SMALL in comparaison… One provide HP and Taunt, the Other ATK and - Def, but why such a difference in Range ? Makes me so mad…
Frenzy : Stack it when we use skills… Haveing to AA to stack it almost render it useless most of the time…
Good job Cathexis! And your swordsman guide was my bible when I was new to this game.
You would be a good game developer.
My suggestion would be for Peltasta’s Swashbuckling having less cooldown at higher levels. For example, 1 second less for each level so a level 15 Swash just has 5 seconds cool down to properly maintain aggro.
I totally agree with your ideas for pelta, hoplite, cata and dragoon. I didn’t play the other classes.
I didn’t have any problem with pelta C1, hoplite C1 and Cata C3 because I felt like the content was matching my tankiness/DPS/tools until I reached dragoon. Dragoon is clearly a DPS focused class that just don’t have the big DPS/burst like hoplite/cata had at lower levels. Yes the skills are definitely “good” but it doesn’t match the late game content IMO.
@Cathexis While your points for needed change are very relevant I can not agree with your suggestions wholly. Some are good but many of them seem to peg specific classes into either a dps role or tank role. The issues facing sword are more systemic than just specific skills, and in fact focus on skills simply lead to imbalance/ forced builds.
The simplest method to fix DPS or Tanking respectively is new gear/ changes to existing gear. More def on shields, more Damage on 2hand Sword/Spears/Dagger/Pistol. These adjustments would be quick and simple but leave classes unaffected in the long term.
Many if your suggestions also push for going circle 3 into a tree, not by buffing said circle three skills but by moving already existing skills higher up, I can’t see this as a good change, especially since people have already set their builds according to taking just circle 1 or 2 in their builds.
You opened up the op by saying you did not know how IMC wanted to take specific jobs but many of these suggestions do specifically that, foce a specific role/method of play.
However as always I will say the post was well thought out and written, and was a very good read.
these changes makes swordsman op in pvp and still ■■■■ in pve later levels…
the only good change here is the swordsman change. dragoon and cataphract changes are terrible.
Completely agree to the changes to Swordsman and Cataphract. Cataphract might not need it due to impale lower point investment enables more levels in doomspike but could be a good idea for pure GVg Cata players.
Swordman needs the buffs that you mentioned because of lower dps values and that stupid requirements to go peltasta1 for being wanted in parties later on.
Maybe just maybe the provoke attribute is changed to make it similar to swash just that the swordsman needs to deal a % hp of the monster as damage and then the need for peltasta1 might not work out.
Well the pain barrier proposed changes are a bit overkill. i feel like the ktos has pain barrier in a decent spot. resistance to CC
i dont realy feel anything besides that makes swordsman so much “OP” as much as being where it should be as a class. in general melee classes should receive much more reward because “come here so i can hit you”.
Yeah, my suggestions are over the current value of the skills.
So if there is a 100% right now, then with the proposed changes they would be 120% up to 250%. I didn’t specify it that way because the skill don’t either on their current state, so I thought it would be more confusing. Not sure about that now.
That is interesting. What skills do you think deserve this particular change?
The problem is that you are too vulnerable during those seconds and having a high duration means that it would be too strong for farming in general, so it’s cooldown would have to be increased by a large amount to make it balanced.
That is why I gave it 1 second per level to have at most 10 seconds of duration, that way I feel is better balanced and justifies giving points to this skill. It is a trade-off between damage and utility as you need to invest more points on this that would come from the damage skills.
Although another option could be leaving the duration at 10 seconds at all ranks, and instead increase the amount of EXP and/or the drop chance with skill level. Maybe 10% per skill level.
This problem should be fixed when they add more maps / places to grind at. The only reason why Swash Buckling is necessary right now is because party grinding is the most efficient way to keep on leveling past 250+.
With more variety as to the places / styles that people can grind and level up at, there would be no need for everyone to have Swash Buckling.
That is a good one! I added it to the list and I do agree that the only explainable reason for having it be so low is a “thematic” one.
What about the rest of the Fencer kit? Any other “pain point” that you felt with the class?
How would you choose each bonus? Would they be tied to each individual class? Or would they be based around the class icon color? Perhaps you get a list to select from?
I think it is a good idea, but the change would probably have an impact on every tree and class in the game, not just Swordsman. So I feel this would be more of a general proposal rather than a Swordsman specific one.
The problem with giving Magical Resistance to classes like Peltasta and Rodelero is that, if they prove to be effective, they will leave no room for other builds to shine.
Balancing Magical Damage in general is tricky because of how the game mechanics are currently implemented.
I thought about a way to combine buffs, as we do have to use a little bit too many to keep up our damage. Maybe a skill that would mix them up a little bit like Chaplain does, but better implemented.
I couldn’t come up with a good one though and I feel that combining Gung Ho and Concentrate would be too strong at early levels.
You only break CC once, when you activate the skill. The trade off proposed with the attribute is having 40% chance of resisting those 3 Status Ailments, while being more vulnerable to Knockback and Knockdown.
This way they are not just immune to everything and has a downside on using it.
The values can always be adjusted if it proves to be too strong. I think it would be better with a lower value, considering that there is Aspersio too.
However, it wouldn’t be as strong as it would need a total of 15 skill points to reach it’s highest potential. I also think that the -Physical Attack should remain, otherwise it is like giving away free stats with no trade-off made.
That would be fine too, but I think it is too boring. I tried to give it at least some reason for being used. At least Spear Throw has [Bind].
If you were to reduce it to 0 CD, would you leave it as it currently is? Would you make other changes to damage or perhaps effect?
This is not really about spears. This is about enabling more builds to shine when picking Highlander, so that Corsairs, Fencers and other builds that not necessarily want to use a shield have also the option of blocking when using an off-hand.
If you are worried about the strength of this, then it could be changed to boost Slash damage instead of Pierce. Or there could be an attribute to toogle Pierce/Slash damage with it.
It is pretty weak to be honest, only fairly good when using on Bleeding targets thanks to it’s double damage. But outside of that they removed consistent damage from Highlander for a small amount of burst.
While the version on kTOS is too strong, I think we can find a way to give Highlander better consistent damage.
Would you just leave it as it is? Or would you have another change be implemented?
If you add Bleeding and Knockdown to it, what would be the main reason to invest points into this skill? If you have those from the start, there would be incentives to keep on leveling it further and it would be a 1 point wonder skill.
Why Bleeding? Would it scale with the levels acquired? Would you make any other changes with this particular version?
I think it would be fine left untouched. The change is only for higher levels, that is why it requires Barbarian C3. But I do think that it should be able to deal more damage on the long run, as it is one of the main sources of damage for Barbarian builds.
It disables whoever you managed to trap with it. But I agree that it needs to be fixed first so that it at least works properly.
I think that any cooldown between 40~60 is fine.
What do you think would be a good cooldown value for it?
It is actually pretty weak overall, considering it has a massive cooldown and no overheat for the damage it does. It at the very least needs to have an improvement on each of those.
It is a C1 skill, but the change only comes true on C3. It doesn’t make the skill any better at lower ranks and levels.
Where do you think it needs a nerf?
If we leave it alone it has no reason to be leveled up. It is a 1 point wonder skill and there should be a reason to keep on investing on it.
Otherwise you end up with every build just taking 1 point on it, just like we currently do. If that is the case, might as well leave it with a max level of 1 instead.
Why wouldn’t it make any sense?
How could the burn attribute be improved?
It is a slight nerf but it is the best way to make Rodelero C3 actually feel rewarding and I feel that by doing this there is justification to make it a better skill.
It doesn’t do much at higher levels to be honest. It needs adjustment to stay relevant, especially considering that levels will just keep on increasing.
Perhaps the values are too high, but they do need an improvement.
So it would be similar to what I proposed.
How much should the number of hits be improved by?
How much extra Physical Defense should it boost?
Why would it be absurd? It is not a multi-hit skill and it still consumes SP per cast, it is not going to deal any significant amount of damage compared to other skills.
But with a lower cooldown (not necessarily 0 seconds) it allows this skill to be used whenever an enemy is knocked-down rather than just every xx seconds.
What do you think would be a better value?
Would you still prefer if this skill stays restricted to only be used on knocked down enemies?
What cooldown do you think would be fair to give to it?
In addition to the kTOS buff to Cleave?
Would you leave them all as they are with just this change?
Would they have reduced cooldowns or overheat?
Do you think the change I proposed is fair or adequate?
Would you have another way to improve Templar as it currently is?
I forgot to add those! Thanks you, I will add those to the list too, although it would only be Rapier+Dagger and Rapier+Pistol (for future Ranks).
Overall making it more smooth rather than the clumsy animation and speed it currently has. Added it to the list too!
This would be much easier to pin-point if we had an exact measure and metric of the hitboxes in the game.
I think this would be a pretty nice QoL change to the skill.
How fast do you think it should be?
I added your suggestions to the list too.
I think this one is good, I added it to the list.
I think this would be a little bit too strong, it would need to be balanced around that so the values should probably go down or it should be compensated on another way.
I think this change would be a little bit too strong and it encourages players to not deal damage to maintain aggro, so it rewards more passive playing style without doing much.
Perhaps another way to reduce it’s cooldown without giving it away for free?
But in general I think that Swash Buckling is fine as it is.
That is fine, but I need your help by being more specific:
What changes did you like?
What changes did you not like?
Why didn’t you like them?
What do you propose instead?
I honestly believe that increasing the effectiveness of equipment is not going to make any difference at all but create a bigger disparity between “top builds” and weaker ones, as there is a big disparity between the main damage tools they are using which is their skills.
Not all of the changes I proposed have to be good or go through, in fact I don’t expect any of them to do so. I just want to start a conversation going so that we all can reach a better crafted solution that we can take to IMC.
If we can all agree on 1 or 2 changes, I feel that is already a huge win, compared to the current state that most feedback is at.
What change do you think would help Moulinet more? Lower cooldown or overheat?
Perhaps a little bit too strong. Do you think they should not be in there at all? Or would you lower their values/effectiveness?
The reason why I picked those is to have more synergy with Targe Smash and the Peltasta skills, without having to necessarily rely on other classes to do so.
It is -5 seconds per use, so with 3 overcharge you end up with 0 CD as long as you use it on Bleeding targets, but it won’t deal double damage to it.
Do you think Sky Liner is fine as it is?
Would you make a change to it? If so, how would you change it instead?
Ok. So what are your proposed changes instead?
What do you think is overkill about it?
Could the kTOS version be improved or would that be just enough?
I agree with a lot of changes that you propose especially with Barbarian’s Pouncing. I’ll take advantage of this and ask you if Pouncing works with mount since I have my doubts. For me, I just want Rodelero move to Rank 3 instead of Rank 4 for reasons that I’ll need a wall of text I’m lazy to write about.
From what i heard, the damage amount isnt that drastic, and i mean it is pretty amazing for what it does. for that duration if you dont attack at all and let your allies destroy the enemies, you get x2 drop and exp. but your proposed change to leave the duration be, and instead make it so you gain 10% exp/drop per level is definetly more appealing than starting it at 1second and moving it to 10s at lv 10. being able to gain triple the exp would make it worth actually capping in dopple c2
i still believe it should be a Swordsman C1 skill and Pelt should get a skill that allows its user to take damage in place of a selected ally. This makes Pelt more of a tanky route character, while not forcing Swordsmen at any point to have to grab Pelt for Swashbuckling at any point. and honestly , as it stands it would be a fine fit in Swordsman C1.pretty much every action from Swordsman C1 is incredibly underwhelming, save maybe Pain Barrier? Concentrate probably shines the most only hwen you invest into the Attribute to boost its damage, and Gung Ho needs the attribute to remain a heavily used buff,otherwise it seems like a minor boost. of course your proposed changes to these skills could very well change things, and we wouldnt need nor be expected to tank if our damage numbers were competetive with wizards and archers.
i think the KTOS version is fine, its pretty much what you proposed but without the extra 20% resistance to all harmful ailments, and without the drawback. Whats overkill is the duration and the fact you can remove debuffs when using it. because Control status is reduced in pvp and skills go on CD after you use em, i feel kTOS’s pain barrier is quite enough to deal with this menace in pvp.
I believe that such a metric exists, but I’m not sure if the client stores such information. I did encounter a visual glitch a few days ago which randomly displays the hitboxes of NPCs, monsters, and skills…but I haven’t been able to consistently replicate it.
If the skill cannot mechanically function without an animation, then reducing its duration to 0.5s would be a significant improvement. Perhaps Swordsmen with more PvP experience can chime in on this issue.
My biggest issue would be with any changes that involve movement of skills to different circles.
Also I feel concentrate/gungho is fine as is, combined would be awesome. However the suggestion of buffing those skills, as you suggest make sword c3 mandatory. Which is the problem with scaling skills in general. The better they scale the more “Mandatory,” they are. Then classes become irrelevant and specific skills are what defines the class.
Many of these suggestions will lead to the same issue Wizard has, wiz3ele3 being almost the only way to go and other builds not being able to compete. Right now swords can compete pretty fairly with one another in both DPS and TANK roles. The issue is sword vs other classes. These suggestions seem focused on balancing throughout sword which is not the problem.
To be clear if all 2hand swords had damage doubled and a secondary element atk then Dopple would be on par with main Archer/Wiz builds. Currently the best weapons are spears both in stats and synergy but they still suck.
This also plays into how str is so important to Sword but the benefits of going str suck. Even if you ignore gear and just focus on stat changes you can fix swordman easy. Make Con give an atk bonus and Str a very large attack bonus. Sure Archers will get a buff but Swords would get more of a buff do to the bonus, heck increase the sword bonus so every 100point of str invested adds 100 bonus str.
These mechanics are in the game and would take a few minutes to complete. Going deeply into every suggested change is not something I will do because I do not see the overall path as an efficient or viable one.
Since MMOs are not new and ToS is not in a vacuum I will give examples of how a single item can make or break a class/Job.
FFXI Kraken club for Drk = Top Dps
Vanilla wow Earthbiter +Flurry axe on shamman
Many more such instances. The itemization of sword gear is terrible. Heck look at clerics with toy hammer n arde. Gear itemization is much easier to implement and can easily limited to specific circles/build simply via the already in place mechanics. So nake better 2hand sword will not do much for Archers/Wiz/ Goons but will surely buff sword builds using 2 handers, etc.
I believe in tweaking skills little by little rather giving them a huge overhaul unless they’re completely broken. I think changing the skill to be 0 CD first would be a start. Afterall, it’s on a Peltasta c2 while Spearthrow is on Hoplite c3.
I think that’s the point though. When you go with an offhand weapon, you cannot block. It doesn’t really make much sense to be able to block with a dagger or pistol.
Off-hand weapons such as the Arde Dagger already makes most 1H swords deal more damage than 2H swords. Giving them block as well… well, what’s the point of wielding a 2H sword other than switching to it to use for skills?
I think it’s fine where it’s at. Maybe giving the skill a bigger hitbox or AoE attack ratio would be better but this skill in itself already deals quite a bit of damage. I would leave it as it is.
There really is no point in investing into the skill. As a Barbarian, you have too many skills to invest into and it doesn’t help that you need to invest 15 skill points into it to make it somewhat useful. It’s like why would you invest more than 1 point into Cure other than increasing the damage a slight bit?
The bleeding is there so Barbarian could at least deal a tad bit more DPS. Embowel has a pretty decent AoE attack ratio and hits multiple mobs already. This also helps other players that rely on bleed debuffs to deal double damage.
Pouncing should probably be moved down to 40 sec cooldown. It literally works exactly like Cataphracts Rush.
I wouldn’t mind if Piercing had 1 overheat or if the bleed chance was higher.
I’m not gonna suggest nerfing Finestra because that would piss everyone off. I’d rather focus on buffing sword/shield type characters first.
I realize that there are many 1 point wonder skills but that’s how they designed the the game to be. Most classes have 1 point wonder skills and you would have to overhaul not just swordsman, but literally every class in the game if you don’t want those kinds of skills.
Targe Smash deals double damage vs frozen and petrified targets. You would be giving Rodelero the highest dps in the game when paired up with a cryomancer. Let’s also not forget about High Kick which further increases your damage. The class is supposed to focus on tanking, disabling and debuffing not dps.
It’s like saying Blessing doesn’t do much because it only adds in +170 damage. But when you multiply that by 5 party members it’s +850 add damage.
+50~100 P.ATK from Squire * 5 party members… let alone that it takes 0 buff slots making this skill have no downsides. The only problem is that you need Lv15 Weapon Maintenance to start making it somewhat noticeable.
I think Armor Maintenance giving +10 defense at level 1 would be a start. Max level would give +25 defense.
Bash has a 6 second cooldown. Let’s not forget that Punish has an AoE attack ratio higher than Cartar Stroke. Also, this skill doesn’t need any weapon requirement. You’d be able to spam Punish multiple times on downed mobs and repeat that every 6 seconds. This further makes swordsman classes a bit useless because what’s the point in using swords when spears can do all of this + having finestra active at all times?
I feel the same as this guy:
We need to buff sword/shield characters before anything else. The problem is that Spearsman do everything Swordsman can but better.
I’ll just like to say I’d like to see Corsair’s Jolly Roger buffs fixed from sticking on the screen. Your entire buff bar ends up being taken by finished pillaging icons. @_@
(Yeah i suck at using this quoting thing)
You’re missing an important detail about Skyliner, it’s damage output is reliant on Crosscut’s ability to inflict Bleeding. I often find myself ignoring Skyliner because either Crosscut is on cooldown or the Bleeding just doesn’t work, i don’t know, Crosscut’s bleeding feels super wonky to me compared to Broadhead Arrow’s bleeding.(Maybe something to do with my swords being High Dex and my Fletcher being High Str?).
Basically my point is, if Crosscut’s Bleeding is inconsistent, or if the enemy resists the bleeding, Skyliner is going to be ignored and you’re going to wait 'till you can use Crosscut again.
My suggestion:
Skyliner
Problem: Too reliant on Crosscut to deal sufficient damage output.
Proposed change:
Effect: Make Skyliner inflict additional damage on enemies afflicted with any status effect(Bleeding, Poison, Armor Break, Shock, Confusion,…).
Drawback: Reduces the additional damage from 100% -> 80%*.
Overheat: 4 charges.
Justification: Makes Skyliner more live and Highlander’s other skills that affect status effect(Skull Swing, Crown) more viable. You don’t have to play around Crosscut’s cooldown anymore.
Edit: Good job Cathexis, keep it up, proud of you.
That literally applies to almost every skill in the game tho. There are multiple skills in this game that does not work on certain mobs. Cleave’s damage entirely depends on Helm Choppers stun, but you can’t stun bosses. So what are you trying to argue here? This is part of the game and why certain classes do better vs certain mobs.
But yeah let’s ignore that this guy was hitting 30k per skyliner.
With 3 overheats he’s dealing nearly 100k of damage in just 15 seconds.
I need some context for that picture please. Providing a picture without context proves nothing.
For example, my Archer C3 could deal that much damage with Multishot if i were using a 2-H Bow against a Flying-type mob at lvl 150 with shitty equipment.
Finestra is way to strong already, when compared to other swordsman skills. If hoplite were given % scaling with their massive strength then no one would play anything other than hoplite. Maybe give it % increase to crit rating instead of flat crit rating so that a bit of investment in dex would be necessary.
