Tree of Savior Forum

Extra hits don't benefit skills (Cafrisun/Sacrament/Enchant Fire/Last Rites)

I put this up the other day. Basically, you can see my Multishot without Cafrisun set hitting targets. I have an Arde Dagger equipped.

Second, you can see me equipping the Cafrisun set. This extra hit on Cafrisun should apply Arde Dagger an additional time to add another 153ish damage + 12 from Cafrisun itself.

In the video, you can see that that just doesn’t happen. Damage with and without Cafrisun is the same.

This has a lot of relevance for late game and Multihit skill scaling. It basically means that Cafrisun loses value as soon as your armor gives 153 extra damage or if you use skills a lot (looking at you Rangers/Fletchers).

Elemental damage already falls off massively late game, but I think this is another nail in that coffin.

Discusssss~~~~

There is nothing to discuss. Additional hits only apply to autoattacks and always have been.

Your Memedagger already adds its elemental damage to EACH hit of multishot and you ask for more?

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Well this basically lowers the value of Arde Dagger by a lot and lowers its scaling potential even more.

I know I was under the assumption that the extra hits apply to my skills too. It even applies early game when you are using Oblique Shot which doesn’t apply extra hits.

Anyway, I auto attack a lot so it is still worthwhile for me. I think I have to consider selling it a lot sooner though :stuck_out_tongue:

i suggest to read description of oblique shot. It IS a 2-hit skill if there are more than 1 enemy nearby.

So hostile~~~

You didn’t even get the point I was getting at when I was mentioning Oblique Shot. It was mostly its value vs normal attacks, but I digress.

BTW, if you tell me to read its description, it also mentions that it only has an 80% rate. I don’t think I’ve ever missed the second hit if a mob was in range. So if you feel like being hostile and “suggesting” things to me, I hope you would check yourself before you wreck yourself.

damn. Have you ever played archer? that 80% means 80% of damage of 1st hit, it grows with levels.

Duuude…

Whelp. I guess I’ll eat my words then. Nothing worse than losing to the troll.

Arde Dagger was mostly for mages, priest-bots, and autoattackers. I don’t know why you thought buying it for an archer who isn’t a QS was a good idea.

What is the problem here? Cafrisun and Arde scale great early game even without the extra hit, they give extra hit to auto attackers because auto attackers need it.

Late game auto attackers need any advantage they can get and extra hits can be one of those.

P.S. It’s kind of ludicrous to begin with that you expected Cafrisun, a level 15 armor set, to scale into late game.

Not Cafrisun, but extra hits. Was expecting them to be granted to skills. Would make level 15 Multishot a lot stronger if it could obtain damage from extra hits.

It’s not, because that’s how it is in the first place. You’re the only one that think this way.

The big thing here is the arde dagger. 153 extra elemental damage. Now in 10s I can unleash 44 hits. Every single hit got this extra 153 damage. So its 153 x 44 = 6732 extra damage done in this 10s just from arder dagger. With the 12 elemental damage from cafrisiun set is 7260 in the conditions above.

Why any archer can use cafrisiun set even on lvl 170 ~ 200? Buy the sacrament buff + blessing buff + ask for a wizard friend with enchant fire.

Normal hit + cafrisiun hit + sacrament hit + enchant fire hit. Every tick with the bonus damage from blessing, etc. :grin:

I also love Arde Dagger with my Archer, better than 2H Bow (of course not in flying monster)

Current Level: 95
I’m hitting mobs like 600-700 + 250~ (dunno why higher than actual computation +12+153+33+31)
with +12 Earth +153 Fire +33 Holy +31 Ice

what more with Mana-Mana :blush:

*btw, how much Mana-Mana in your servers? I haven’t seen one in SEA. Recipe’s are being kept. haha lol

Sad thing with this is that only the normal attack crits :frowning:

What if all those “additional attacks” crits, archers might be pure dex build.

Regaring topic:
Before, I also thought that the “additional attack” adds on the skill,
Like 16 arrows on multi shots with 16 additional x 3 (Cafri, Sacra, EnchantFire)
but its too OP. haha lol :smile:

Let us ignore Arde/ high additional damage sources for a moment. Doesn’t it seem strange that your skills don’t get the damage from say Sacrament/ Enchant Fire/ Cafrisun/ Last Rite.

If you go around as a Fletcher spamming 0 cd skills and never auto attacking, you are at least missing the base damages of those skills.

I can’t remember off the top of my head, but I think it was 40 for Sac, 30 for Fire, 12 for Cafrisun, and I have no clue what Last Rite’s damage line is without additional sources.

Anyway, this affects my circling choices. Basically the only time I use skills is when Running Shot is on cd. Since it had so many hits, I never really checked in on if it added hits with my additional hits.

To my knowledge, no where is it said that additional hits only affect auto attacks. Like i was saying earlier, a Fletcher spamming skills misses the base damage from the above skills at the very least due to additional hits not happening with skills.

The way this affects my circling choices is because one of the few draws of A3 to me is the 15 hit Multishot. Me being an AA archer, I understand that I get a proportionally larger benefit from additional hits.

It just makes me sad that it doesn’t work that way. With one of the reasons to go A3 less appealing now, I might just go Falconeer for Circling @_@

At least from Last Rites, Sacrament and I guess Enchant Fire too you actually get the little elemental damage part to all of your hits…so…

Giving skills extra hits would be too OP and that would make the currently cool and working AA builds useless.

This system is one of the few that I actually think works fine and I like it. Only the part where 2h weapons are not necessarily worth it compared to Arde should be revised.

Multishot lvl 15 hits 16 times.

Get caprisun + sacrament + enchant fire thats 3additional hits,

16 x 4 = 64 hits in total thanks to additional hit.

Lets say this palyer got head accessories and each piece gave +30 elemental damage.
64 x 90 =5760

now lets add steady aim attribute +100 more flat damage.
64 x 100 = 6400

Now lets add blessing (lets say this priest blessing only gives 100 damage)
64 x 100 = 6400
//maxed blessing actually gives more than 100 damage.

5760 + 6400 + 6400 = 18 560 damage, without arde dagger.
now, if you did multishot twice on a boss, gg.

Additional hits with skills would be way too strong.

edit: But by all means, if youre very much into tons of additional hits when you attack, you might want tot ry out corsair for the “Double Weapon Assault” Buff, it lets you cancel your Z attack animation with a dagger stab, its literally 2 hits with 1 z, that would result with 6 additional hits instead of 3.

I havent tested it, but it might also be even faster if you squeeze in “Deeds of valor” buff

Edit2: Just remembered,there is a higher lvl bow that gives somewhere around 300+ poison damage, with each additional hit, wow, if additional hits worked on skills, arde would be useless comparing to that poison bow.

2H weapon = 2 gems

main weap + sub weap = 4 gems.

Gems are OP late game.

There are 2h’s with 3 gem slots.

Here’s a few examples.

That is some disingenuous math you have there going. I will accept any math challenge.

First, it looks like you went Ranger mate. I highly doubt you have A3 in your build to get Multishot rank 15.

Second, I am no Ranger, but I am pretty sure Steady Aim attribute doesn’t work that way. It is more likely than not physical damage - which means it won’t be added to additional hits.

Third, you probably aren’t getting the Enchant Fire buff nor the Caprisun buff as a Ranger since that doesn’t make sense with the Ranger play style of skill spamming. You basically need to be standing on top of the Linker when he casts it to get Enchant Fire. I, as an AA archer make this a slight priority to stalk my linkers and still don’t get this buff. We though have to ignore this if I want to argue my case that extra hits should affect skills because that would affect how your think of play style.

Fourth, it isn’t 64 extra hits. This is about additional hits. Skills always get the first hit since it is incorporated into your damage. Hell, for argument’s shake, let us assume you did get Enchant Fire, are using Cafrisun, and bought Sacrament. You would then get 16 x 3 = 48 additional hits.

Fifth, you can’t assume blessing. The number of times I’ve been in parties with Priests that don’t Bless boggles the mind. That and Blessing only lasts x amount of hits when bought so it won’t always be there. For argument’s shake though, I’ll include it, but man are you using shaky assumptions.

Sixth, since you are a Ranger, you are probably using a bow to use your skills so you probably don’t have an off hand. Again, I’ll ignore this for the shake of argument.

7th, I’ll quote this one, but it is basically that hair accessory magic damage gets reduced a lot in end game due to resists. This makes small amounts of damage from hair accessories MUCH MUCH MUCH less useful. Especially if it is multiple elements. You should use physical attack that scales better.

Extra Elemental Attack
This is where all your Elemental Attack stats are added, after crits, before everything else. These all add on to each other if you have multiple types of elements and are always applied, no matter what the attack is (even on DoT effects like Bleeding!). This Elemental Attack is already multiplied by Elemental Bonuses on its own, so yes, having Fire Elemental Attack and then casting a Fire skill on a Ice enemy will make it multiply by 150% once for itself, then again for the whole skill. Elemental Resistances and Resistance buffs/debuffs are accounted for again here too, just like the bonus being applied twice. The full formula for Elements is :
((Elemental Attack - (Elemental Resistance + Debuff/Buff)) * Elemental Modifier) (+ …)
Where (+ …) is a repeat of the first part for each element.

Alright, now that we have new assumptions, let us get down to the math.

We have 16 x 3 extra hits for a level 15 Multishot = 48 additional hits

Let use just assume that all 3 of our elemental hair accs are fire damage so they won’t be reduced to 0 due to resists. Hell, let us just assume 0 magic defense since that is best case.

48 x 90 = 4320 damage

Steady Aim doesn’t work this way~~~

48 x 0 = 0 damage

Think Blessing is 170 at max damage, but you used 100, so here it goes for 100.

48 x 100 = 4800 damage

For reference at 170 it is:

48 x 170 = 8160 damage

Thus we have 4320 + 4800 = 9120 damage. You literally doubled the damage with some shaky assumptions and math when you said 18560 damage.

Now one last thing, I just quoted a random Reddit post about extra elemental attacks. It is hardly official. I’ll quote it again and bold the part that supports my argument.

Extra Elemental Attack
This is where all your Elemental Attack stats are added, after crits, before everything else. These all add on to each other if you have multiple types of elements and are always applied, no matter what the attack is (even on DoT effects like Bleeding!). This Elemental Attack is already multiplied by Elemental Bonuses on its own, so yes, having Fire Elemental Attack and then casting a Fire skill on a Ice enemy will make it multiply by 150% once for itself, then again for the whole skill. Elemental Resistances and Resistance buffs/debuffs are accounted for again here too, just like the bonus being applied twice. The full formula for Elements is :
((Elemental Attack - (Elemental Resistance + Debuff/Buff)) * Elemental Modifier) (+ …)
Where (+ …) is a repeat of the first part for each element.

For reference, the thread is: