Tree of Savior Forum

Exp Curve and Boss Pacing

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#21

I’m a Korean beta tester, and I’m actually really surprised and disappointed that they would lower exp rates as they did. In the Korean version everything was pretty much in sync, perhaps even a little fast. I leveled to 14 easily before hitting the mines, and when I got into the mines, I hit level 18 just by doing the quests there… and then I fought Spector. I had to do grinding on and off, but it was so fast that it was actually fun. I think the only time I hit a snag was at level 57, being 5 - 7 levels under the mobs in the next zone. The grind then was a bit slower, but playing solo it still wasn’t unbearable. I gained 57-59 from grinding I’d say in about 30 minutes at most, and I moved on to the next zone and was able to quest without an issue.

It’s a bit ridiculous to change the exp rates when people do need to test things. I mean how are you supposed to know what the game is like, honestly ?

I’m really hoping this atrocious decision doesn’t chase people off from the game. I imagine there’s already people who are at a ■■■■ it stage.

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#22

There are two repeatable quests in the Miner Village. It’s great at the time, it took me from level 9 to level 17 or so.

#23

I’m going to go ahead and agree with everything that was said by Nagoda.

I’ve just gotten to the Tenet Chapel, and it’s way above my level. (I’m 27.) I can deal with the monsters outside the Chapel with small difficulty, which I enjoy, but I get less EXP from them than the less interesting, easier enemies in the previous map. Additionally, I’m running out of quests, so I’m just about at the position Nagoda is in.

I noticed a few paths to other maps, one of which was not active… So, maybe in the release version of the game, there will be more questing areas, and you can veer off the beaten path to pursue more experience. That will be great! In that case, the game will actually open up, and be less of a streamlined themepark experience, which is what I’ve been looking forward to.

But as it stands, with less content and a low EXP rate… We are struggling to keep up with the pace of the story and available quests due to our low levels.

The only remedy I can suggest is more areas, preferably diverse in appearance and enemy types, with more quests and grinding areas.

1 Like
#24

Well, my English isn’t very good so have some patience with me. :grin:

I didn’t get access to iCBT and all the information I obtained so far have been through to live broadcasts and YouTube videos. About the experience, I agree with what was written by Nagoda.

It’s really frustrating that excessive grinding in the early levels of the game. As well quoted in this topic, the player should be able to choose the best way to grind levels, either through quests, grind farm or two. However, the player being required to be defeated monster hours to get to it. This becomes more absurd to remember that all are 500 levels to get into the game.

Being quite pessimistic, this way of leveling influence enough players to use illegal means to escape this abusive farm. (Be through bots, auto-clicks, macros, etc…)

There must be a balance in this regard.

#25

Agreed
Forcing people to grind at low lvls is rly bad because the exp is too low
The game was amazing in my first hours with great quests u.u

we need more quests and a small buff on exp

#26

The OP was very articulate and made some good points, but he’s fallen into the ‘Themepark Trap’ like so many other players have.

ToS is not your usual WoW-Killer generic-brand Themepark MMO, it’s inspired by old-school games like Ultima Online and RO. Being upset that you have to grind in your first sitting is a kind of mindset that was only born in a new age of streamlined, crowd-pleasing MMOs trying to emulate WoW’s success.

ToS, and the games it is inspired by, promotes a different kind of progression then you’re used to. This isn’t your run of the mill brand of chugging along the railroad tracks to get to the next zone and the next quest until you’re in the wastelands of ‘endgame’. You’re supposed to grind, find leveling parties and friends. Join a guild when they’re finally available. Focus on itemization and exploration.

It also doesn’t help that this is everyone’s first time with the game. If the game easily let you chug to (albiet a reduced-in-testing) level cap in no time at all with your first interaction with the game, there would be a gigantic problem.
Every MMO from Dark Ages of Camelot to Wildstar starts out with an inexperienced community that has no knowledge or game resources to draw upon. This is the absolute longest it will ever take to play this game, you don’t know where to level, what to do, or how to play.
After release leveling will be much quicker, no matter what. Players will study the game and break it apart, you will see leveling methods, guides to level, prosperous areas to farm EXP and how to best make use of content and quests that aren’t even implemented yet.

Anyone complaining about the grind as it is should relax, one day you’ll have optimal skill builds, online guides, and wikis to help you. Even now players are starting new characters and burning upwards of level 30 in a single sitting.

4 Likes
#27

I suppose that they are locking the players in those levels sections to make sure that the players will get experience enough about the game to give them a feedback and find/report bugs. My advice: if you have hit lv30, try to create another char.

#28

Yaeh man… its true.

#29

Okay, but let me say this:

I played and enjoyed the kind of game that you’re talking about, specially RO and Grand Chase (Season 1, every season after the first one was garbage). I understand the feeling of accomplishment after spend days working to finish a difficult quest, working hard to get that expensive or rare piece of equipment, working my ass off to finish a job change quest and so.

Currently in ToS, you’re not able to experience this kind of fun, you don’t have options on where to level, you don’t have enough skill and the grind wall you hit so early in the game is nothing more than frustrating. I agree that the game should not be easy and i don’t want to hit the level cap soon either, i just think that i don’t have the tools to have fun as it is.

But i must say that most people complaining about the exp rate are just disappointed that they will not get to rank 4+ until the end of the iCBT. We all expected something very different than we are experiencing right now and some people just couldn’t handle it.

At least that’s my opinion.

#30

I have not fallen into the “themepark trap”, whatever that really means. And I have bad news for you; Tree of Savior is already a themepark game of sorts.

“Themepark” design is so called because you are ushered through the world along a pre-ordained track meant to allow players to view all the ‘attractions’ in an efficient way, much like in an amusement park. Back in 2004 “themepark” design was a revelation that made World of Warcraft accessible enough to become the biggest MMORPG in the world. In the intervening decade, it has become a naughty word because savvy gamers with much more exposure to the genre have picked up on certain common patterns that repeat over and over in themepark type quest design, and it has become a bit fatiguing and stale to see in game after game. This is a totally fair indictment of “Themepark” games.

However, “Themepark” does not mean “game has quests”. Themepark means linear. ToS is a profoundly linear game in its current state, at least in the levels I saw during this beta. Everyone starts in the same zone, progressing through the same zones in the same order. The zones themselves are not expansive and vast, but are a network of narrow canyons, roads, and clearings that have a clear entrance and exit. The negative picture that you paint of “chugging along the railroad tracks” applies very directly to ToS, coal shoveling and all. The Oldschool games which you claim inspired ToS were very, very different in this regard.

I’m not arguing for ToS to be a traditional themepark game (and “themepark” vs “grind” is a totally false dichotomy). I don’t think IMC wants this either, which is why they cannily decided that it would be better to make most of the (many) quests they designed for the game be hidden and require exploration to seek out. This is a smart move! They can preserve the beneficial aspects of themepark quest design–clarity of purpose for the player, frequently visiting new activities and locations, while excising the worst aspects of themepark design-- finding an obvious “quest hub” that overwhelms you with objectives that feel like a list of chores, and the general feeling of being led around by the nose.

You can have lots of quests, and make them rewarding, without turning the game into a “Wow-killer generic brand themepark”. You do this by looking more to games like Skyrim or The Witcher 3. These games are bursting at the seams with quests, but they are still deeply open and sandboxy. You have to find quests and dungeons on your own by striking off into the uncharted corners of your map, experiencing the joy of exploration and discovery, and it’s worth your time if slaying bandits for 4 hours straight doesn’t sound like your cup of tea.

Quests are not evil. These are not the embryonic early days of MMORPGs, and players have a reasonable expectation to be able to progress through the game world and see new things at a pace that keeps the game engaging. Letting players avoid grind via questing does not turn the game into World of Warcraft. Letting players progress via questing does not prevent other players from grinding if they wish to. The bandits are still there, waiting eagerly for you.

4 Likes
#31

That’s something I’ve talked about and agreed upon in other threads, and you aren’t wrong.

I merely want to dispel the idea that because there’s a long grind, or that progression is slow that it’s bad. I love slow, honest, satisfying progression. However when I see complaints like this, which in this case was chiefly inspired by frustration with hitting the aforementioned ‘early wall’ (which is only worsened by its location before character truly develop), I can’t help but place the blame not on issues with the content, but with what I’ve brought up before: We’re all playing this blind. Later on, once the game has been broken down and examined I’m certain that this barrier will be nothing more than a small hurdle than will be overcome with knowledge and experience with the game. This is issue is overly stressed as the game’s fault, rather than us being ‘virgins’ to the game, even during this test people have boasted about breaking Lv30 in a single sitting.

That said, there is a noticeable, less comon but still recurring, complaint about the content itself, which is often overlooked. In games like RO, which ToS is chiefly compared to, you have multiple regions to explore and level in, and lots of content to play with no matter your level or progression, and you had lots of decisions with how to play your character in this content, which is somewhat lacking in the iCBT, and should be the chief concern rather than complaints about the length or scaling of the grinding itself.

2 Likes
#32

The slow progression and lack of variety in zones to explore at a given level are both real problems, and they both make the other problem worse.

Claiming that everything will be “fixed” once the game is out and players have cracked open the most efficient way to progress though the game is not a compelling argument. You cannot expect the average player to constantly have an FAQ or Leveling Guide open in the background just to make the game’s basic progression bearable. You can expect it to be even less palatable to the average player when that guide reads something like “Grind in X zone for 10 levels, then proceed to grind in Y zone for the next 10 levels”.

1 Like
#33

As a brief sidenote, I do agree that the XP rate is a bit on the “extreme” side right now since me and a party managed to get to Tenet Gardens (Lvl. 39) while being around level 26-27. Needless to say, the first story boss there hit quite hard (unsurprisingly). The point is, with the rate that we’re falling behind at, I don’t know how we’ll continue.
However on the bright side I found it very fun taking on the difficult higher level content while in a party, and I can’t say that my time was a waste. I am more of a person who plays for the “journey” with hopes for the “destination”.
With all this said, I do wish that the EXP rate were adjusted or more means of gain were added in order to mend this growing level desparity between the players and content. I have nothing against grinding but considering we had 14/15 levels to catch up by with what little monsters our level and even higher had to offer, it’s a bit worriesome to say the least.

#34

the current KR rates is pretty smooth.I’d like to be able to level fast so I can work on multiple classes and accounts. Isn’t that what this game is about? 80 classes and being able to play them ?

#35

Yes, it WAS grindy at level 25. Unless you are referring to the new garbage-y Ragnarok Online? Old school Ragnarok was in fact grindy very early on.

#36

All my friends and I had no issues grinding in old school pre-renewal RO at 25.

And 25 would be the equivalent of 50 on ToS regardless, but there’s no real point connecting the 2 games.

#37

I wouldn’t go so far.

ToS is related to Ragnarok Online by head designer and clear inspiration. If ToS was made by anyone else, I think we’d be more comfortable making comparisons.

We don’t want to come in with expectations that are too old school, but lets not jump the shark and say comparisons shouldn’t be made at all. They’re useful and RO is a close thing to ToS in terms of grind, plus it’s what most people will have for reference.

RO wasn’t perfect, but I think it’s a useful reference because of both it’s highs and lows.

====

On the subject of the grind-- I like grinding. I like grinding a lot. As long as all you fools are stuck with me, I’ll enjoy it; but the same isn’t true for other people. When I have friends leaving parties because they can’t take the grind, and when I have friends I want to play with me that I don’t know if I’ll be able to convince to come online once they hit any wall, I’m gonna say the grind needs to be easier and there needs to be a more structured quest line.

Coming off quests into the grind is sudden and painful to, it initially resulted in me being lost and confused because I expected to find quests pushing me through levels at a reasonable clip. I might’ve felt more comfortable with it if there was a clear “this is the part where you grind” thing. A notification of the fact that I’m too low for the next quest, or the quest being visible in my menu but saying I’m too low level.

Plus you don’t gain good exp from higher level monsters. If you did it would alleviate some of this by allowing me to just grind and have fun in the area my next quest will be, joining parties and then eventually leveling up enough to catch up to them on the quest line.

The important thing isn’t just quests though. Dungeons, hidden instances, treasure chests with EXP cards, world bosses, things both that fit into a quest list and don’t, even pvp. Giving players options to progress through the game is important, even if it comes to grinding every now and again, players that don’t want to should be able to choose to maybe grow at a slower pace or take a risk of not leveling, instead just having fun and exploring different aspects of the world.

#38

I experienced the same issues that the OP did as far as feeling like the mines were a huge drag. Up until that point the game felt more or less ok, maybe a bit easy and slow right up until the camp with those goblin-looking monsters and the introduction of archers, but the jump in monster HP inside the mines was just absurd and it combined with the addition of enemies that were suddenly resistant to my weapon.

Now the mine DID want me to party up, the sign right ouside the mine hints to it, but the fact was that I couldn’t find a suitable party after fifteen minutes. People seemed more interested in trying to solo it or AFK farming so I couldn’t quite find anyone even after I created my party, named it appropriately and all. If THAT happened at this point, with tons of new people running through the area, I kind of worry that the whole “just party up” argument falls flat on its face and won’t be able to hold any water at all when we are a few months into release.

I do admit the problem was alleviated somewhat after the Specter Master was killed and I was able to get the attribute that lets you use two sets of weapons, so the issue might be not so much XP gain rather than area design, but it was still kind of an odd shift in progression. Maybe if bosses just awarded more experience? Make it like the shiny monsters in the korean beta and have them give 1 or 3 levels worth of xp? It would sound reasonable to me, especially if they did actually buff the damage that bosses deal (and ideally nerf their gorillion HP pool in the process.)

#39

Neither did me and my friends but that was like 10 years ago and back at a time where RO was one of the most impressive MMOs as far as features went, we had more free time and there was not much else to play. That time is over now so having such a heavy grind after years and years of MMOs stepping away from it seems kind of odd.

#40

rag was not grindy till lvl 70 than u hit a wall a huge one