Tree of Savior Forum

DPK is indeed worse than before

General Discussion
#1

So, I already oppose DKP, however this change is mindboggling. While you guys say you want to improve the system, your actions are the opposite and in fact you just doubled down on the old DKP system(which I’ll admit was better that this new DKP system).

Before, you farmed specific monsters in the hunting grounds to get specific drops, these were then appraised to get random sockets and potential upgrade chances. Now, you have to farm for hours to get a single drop, that is now random on which you get, at an unbelievably high DKP value that still has to be appraised to hopefully get bonuses to justify the time spent.

Seriously? This is your answer?

This is a point I addressed in another thread that will be locked in 2 weeks from this post so I will quote myself here:

@STAFF_Yuri

The problem with the “improved top down DKP” is that it doesn’t work the way you guys apparently think. If a DKP value is 500 the first item is 1/500, next is 1/499, 1/498 etc… the problem with changing the denominator(bottom value) is that you are making a drop initially 0.2% chance to drop, and at 1/250 it’s 0.4% chance to drop. So you won’t see a meaningful drop chance until you get within 10 kills of the DKP value 1/10 for example.

Now, when you increased DKP numbers you only make it where people still have to kill until DKP is within 100 of the max. If the DKP is 10,000 you start at 0.01% chance, 5,000 kills only double your chance to 0.02% chance and so on until you get within 100 of the DKP value.

This is further compounded if it is indeed shared in a map, as you have no idea if the item dropped on another channel, and since it is DKP, you are literally wasting your time if you cannot dedicate the time to kill up to that number WITHOUT INTERRUPTION OR COMPETITION.

For example, if DKP is 10000 and 20 mobs are killed every 30 second, that means an item will drop around the 4 hour mark. Now, that is per map, without considering unknowns about when values reset. What if you get disconnected, channel crashes, maintenance, have to step away for 30 minutes, etc…

I hate the DKP system, it encourages unhealthy behavior for the player and the community. It literally means that someone can (intentionally or accidentally)steal your effort. This encourages bullying of players and incentivized “DKP stealing”.

If you just have percent chances it doesn’t matter how long you can stay on without break, when the server reset, calculating when a drop is likely to occur, etc… you just play the game.

Adding random cubes with random items with random quality on an absurdly high “DKP” value is a desthblow to the game. I personally love the gameplay, but the socialist system of waiting in line for 20k kills to get a chance at items conflicts heavily with the idea of a free market and deincentivies effort from players to obtain these rewards. People don’t “wait in line” and in fact this encourages “line cutting” as people will notice a party farming, note kill rate, and simplify log in and try to mass kill at the appropriate time to attempt to make it easier. Even if they only succeed one time in four attempts, it’s still more efficient than the 4-8 hours it would take to get the item eventually.

Simple math: lets say 1k players want to work on hunting ground gear, and let’s say they just want 2 specific items, one armor and one weapon, and they could be guaranteed max quality, sockets, and what item they get. You are looking at 8000 hours of farming,

This would take 333 days to achieve. One year essentially at the absolute best case. Now, realistically, you have something along a 1:20 chance or so to get the item you want, an unknown chance to upgrade sockets to max, and no possible way to actually play for that long continuously. So why would you ware your time in low level hunting grounds, why make these items harder to farm than practonium recipe items?

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#2

A further note. You literally are saying that players need to continuously farm to feed at most one rare armor, one rare weapon, one uncommon weapon, and one uncommon armor every 8 hours. That means that if items are continuously farmed 24/7 only 3 of each of these will enter the market a day at most.

What’s the point in farming? it would literally take one person monopolizing an entire map for a week to even have a chance at getting what they were actually farming for.

This literally makes no sense. I mean, if these were top tier godly items it may, but most aren’t. The entire point was to bridge the gap to ET and this just created a giant rift while you spit on those trying to find a way across.

1 Like
#3

While I understand that the weaponry is locked behind a higher killrate per drop, I surely don’t for the armor cubes. There is no decent post-220 armor that’s “easily” available and decent enough to replace the level 220 & below Hunting Ground gears that ± most players already have.

There’s also the problem that the cube drops a random item. Even if we get lots of cubes, we still will with most certainty not get the items we want, and if we get them, we’d still like them to have 2 slots for decent defence gain.
While this surely benefits the market, the majority of players will rather make use of the current event & level/test/reset their characters while they play, which will result in less players frequenting the Hunting Grounds.

Less players frequenting them will mean less cubes dropped, thus less gear in the market.

There’s the additional problem of increased transcendence costs until transcendence level 5, which means farming Saalus is more important than before.
Most people thus will most likely just farm more dungeons and Saalus within their time at their hands, leaving the market pretty much empty and overpriced for any new players that could even hope to get their hands on those gears.

It is not beneficial if this system requires an army of solmiki-geared players to frequent the dungeons for hours just to feed the market with rare-tier gear. Neither the Solmiki-geared players nor the normal/casual players will find this feasible enough to be considered a good system, as it will bleed players who try to close the gap between level 220 and 315/330;

They just got another “farm for hours&days just for decent gear”- barricade dropped before them, behind it the transcendence/Practonium/ET-fragment-walls standing to reach a decent feeling of gameplay (even inside the Hunting Grounds themselves)…

#4

There is no competition, because the item drop per channel. Only the DPK counter is shared hence cooperation to lessen the burden of high DPK. It was stated clearly that both players have the same chance of acquiring them.

EG: If DPK is 1.5k for 315 mats, if 2 players are farming in 2 channels, assuming they have the same kill-speed then it would drop somewhere 800kills.

#5

The problem, especially now with the stat changes is key gear that is rank specific and needed for those classes to perform is gated. I must of missed the point of hunting grounds, because I originally assumed it was to help bridge that gap and help new players. This is the opposite.

To be honest, this change is my breaking point. I hated the original DKP system, but really enjoyed other aspects to gameplay and the rank revamp. I cannot stand them making DKP 2.0 be the worst of RNG and doubling the DKP value to get items to drop.

I repeat this every post I make on this topic: DKP PROMOTES UNHEALTHY GAMEPLAY.

  • It promotes an unhealthy lifestyle (you have to play 4 hours+ continuously or you literally farmed for someone else)

  • It creates a hostile environment (someone “steals your DKP”, which is effectively 4+ hours of your time wasted)

  • It heavily incentivizes botting (people don’t bot fun mechanics, they bot when something is too tedious)

  • It is also tied to long spawn times and low numbers of spawns, further compounding all the above issues

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#6

Lets see. The DKP counter is shared. The item drops, the counter resets.

So tell me how can the item drop in multiple channels? It would require different counters,which means it is not shared.

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#7


I’ve showed a chart here to illustrate the situation, we know the intention is good but it doesn’t address the issue. The farming is still tedious with meaningless hours sink, not to mention the recent HG315 10k and 20k DPK, I better stick back to practonium by creating new characters which is more meaningful.

To suggestion,

  1. a minimum drop rate need to be applied together top-down dpk, eg 0.002%
  2. dual system normal drop % + top down dpk, so there is 2 ways of obtain item.
#8

Within 30 kills i believe. The loots will be shared during that time frame, then after all channels got the share it will reset.

#9

I love your chart, and replied in the other thread. I specifically am about finished with B.S. computer science degree and am also considering finishing a double major in economics. So this is a very specific issue that I strongly care about and don’t understand why its so hard to impress that this issue is very very bad for a games economy.

I strongly agree that DKP should be a safety net that is combined with low percent drop items. If the drop-rate is 0.01%, I can see why you may wanna guarantee an item drop after 10k kills for no other reason than to increase market supply.

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#10

Even with the players that are there/have come back, TOS simply doesn’t have the playerbase to support multiple channel-farming and feed the market with “excessive drops”(people will most likely just trade in person for Blessed Shards instead of feeding the market if they get a cube because it’s just too rare)…

#11

So, this means that you are incentivized to monopolize all channels, and coordinate to maximize drops. How is this better? Now, people will get a drop, channel hop or have people waiting in other channels near the mark, and attempt to get dkp multiplied…

This literally makes the problem of DKP stealing worse.

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#12

I think thats what MMORPG is for, helping and sharing? I dont think you can guess when it will drop because the system is combination of Random and a DPK. Youll actually wasting your time if you just sit there and waiting. Thats why HG purple 315 weapon drops within 2 hours as long as all channels are occupied. It is also the reason why tons of items dropped when HG was patched here, because lots of people are helping and killing the mobs.

#13

Lets say you are farming a DKP item. Before it was channel specific, so you had to stay on that channel to get the item to drop. Now, you can afford to spread out and share that effort on multiple channels to effectively multiply spawn rate. What this will lead to is small groups of people being able to effectively control drops and create more hostility between players because of this.

All this causes is a complicated mess and you end up arriving back at RNG, since this is now a RNG DKP system, instead of a RNG + DKP safteynet. The former just combines the worst of the two and gives no improvement.

Also, people choose to play this game either solo, as a group, or as a guild. If EVERYONE agrees to the terms they play, its okay. However, the average player doesn’t care what some random player gets, unless it impacts them. DKP means that if someone gets X you cannot get it. Period. Worse yet, it takes effort from player A and gives it to player B who gets said item. Is player B going to stick around and help player A? In most cases the answer is no.

Sure, if its a friend you may, but would you do so for an opposing guild? Someone you literally just met? The whole point of RNG means that if you may get lucky, but if you put in more effort, you have a greater chance to receive something. DKP means that everyone has to put in effort, and if someone puts in more effort than you, you can still benefit from minimal effort.

lets say the DKP is 1000. You wont see a meaningful drop chance until 900 mobs are killed, putting the drop rate at 1/100 or 1%. So, if you know that a party is killing 15 mobs every 30 seconds, you could hop in once every 30 minutes and have a greater chance at receiving the item, than if you wasted the time continuously farming.

This means the path of least effort is to play the game you want, and every 30minutes or so you hop over and attempt to get the item you want, and go back to what you were doing. While another player works for you for no benefit.

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#14

I dont think you could control that lol. As long as there is RNG there, it wont happen. If control, it was possible before the full implementation of Top-Down, I abused that to my heart content, but it is no longer possible, because the loots are shared.

Lets say 2 groups of guilds competing for that 20k DPK. The map is so huge for you to control it. Youll need 10 groups to fully occupy just 1 channel. I actually prefer if more groups are farming, because it lessen my burden.

#15

The whole point is DKP means that only one item can drop after a specific time, and its a free for all. Anyone can essentially loot that item, even if you did 99% of the work to make it appear, another player can loot it. Essentially invalidating your work. DKP forces you to share drops, but doesn’t require you to pay back that effort someone else spent.

If its a percent chance, and player A kills 90 times as many mobs as player B, both still have a chance to receive the item. Player A is more likely to see the item drop, which is rewarding his increased effort. Player B is also getting a chance, but his likely hood of seeing the item drop is less than player A.

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#16

Like i said it is percentage. It could drop in your first kill of the map.

#17

I used to farm with someone else on the original DPK. We occupied 2 different channels and he’d come to my channel to swell for me which usually took 10 mins or so. Since it was taking me 12-15mins faster than him, it usually worked out.

#18

Essentially it is a crappy version of normal RNG. The problem with your logic, is that that chance is absurdly small now, its variable, and it deprives someone else of that drop.

My point is that its absurdly complicated, rewards bad behavior, and opens up more avenues to exploit it than a simple Percent Based Drop System

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#19

What you say is simply not true and copycats some theorycrafter’s idea posted in another thread.

If the loot was shared the way you think, I would have dropped 3 wizards bracelets during my tests:

given their dpk of 950-1050 (https://tos.neet.tv/items/602109).

I was alone on ch2, people were in ch1.

4 Likes
#20

I dont think IMC will just give high end equips for free. If you want pure RNG you already have practonium cube. You kill 1 cube per day for chance to get end-game weapon. We all hate Practonium cube because it is random without DPK.

End-game equips are usually locked in months for a MMORPG type of game.

In your orignal post, you didnt specify there are people on different channels. Having people on different channel doesnt mean theyre killing shardstatue as you do. You can test this now if you have time. Thats my understanding with “the same chance for every players in different map” in the Devs talk-about of DPK.