Now Diano is also the only way to prevent buff erasing (unless you have 30+ nonexistant buff in one party), so there is nerf.
But why haven’t they fixed the buff erasing “issue” back then? Because lots of Krivis players won’t suffer from “fixing” it.
And yet, you didn’t respond on my suggestion about buff preventing stance. This is much adequate way to solve buff erasing issue, on my opinion. Because why you even should be able to choose buffs you will have? Then as I suggested, lets choose 5 skills that will have no CD, because
I don’t my having only 5 no CD skills as my Fencer, let me have control on WHICH 5 skills will have no CD. It’s just too strong on my opinion if applied for buffs.
Actually it was not my statements, but statement of guy who opposed me in this discussion. And if you think that such change won’t nerf Krivis, then you have no right to call me close minded.
Yeah, I’m trying to reject solution about locking buffs, because opinion on this solution is too onesided and people simply don’t see consequences it will bring up.
Also I suggested much better(IMHO) solution to this issue, then locking buffs. It is about the 0 cd “stance” preventing further buffs from party members. If it will harm some classes please tell me and I will try to find a better solution.
If it wasn’t me then you would definitely lose a fight to this world boss. But luckily I know that you should use Diano scroll when fighting world boss.
Yes, it does. If you give me an example when you have Diano level 15 and got your buff erased, then I will agree you are right and support your suggestion about buff locking. But you won’t give me such an example. Unless…
“Priest resurrect doesn’t grant you damage immunity. You have a dagger that goes through it (you already imagined that dagger, right? Because IMC will make such a dagger for sure). So fix a description, it’s lying.”
You forgot to say that Stone Skin doesn’t prevent you recieving physical damage, because if your enemy has 5000 block pen it will hit you no matter what.
Just stop that nonsense already and give me one good reason why do you think that buff locking is better for a game (not for you personally) then temporal external buff prevention. I already stated and explained in detail that first solution will indirectly nerf Krivis and non buff reliant classes, because they don’t need it. If you still doubt it’s true then
This guy looks very intelligent, his advice will help for sure.
I wonder why those people even start harassing me without trying to think what I’m talking about.
Also OP in his post stated about ways to solve this issue and one of them was
So as you can see this post is about Krivis changes as well. So my statements about how to improve Krivis to partially solve this issue are totaly legit.
Also I kind of like the suggestion about increasing buff cap by 1 at ranks 4, 8 and 10 for example(if there will be a lot of buffs at ranks 8-10). And Additionally increase buff cap for Thaumas to reach priest and Swordie buff cap (or at least by 1).
For THIS discussion, the only reason krivis is relevant is [daino]. I didn’t say that [daino] is the only thing krivis contributes to the game.
He is listing options
A little convenient to omit certain parts of his post to make it look like OP just wants to remove the buff cap and change [daino] to something else.
A party of 2 clerics and 2 wizards can already go above 24 (buff cap for archer and wizard with lv 15 [daino] + [divine might]) with party buffs. Add an archer (not even counting what ever buffs he can bring) and that’s a standard earth tower comp.
You don’t even need lv 15 [daino] to prove that it doesn’t prevent buffs erasing buffs. Take a chaplain and self buff up with everything + lv 1 daino (no token so 8 buff cap). The chaplain buffs will take 8 slots (1 slot left because [daino] doesn’t take a primary buff slot). Stand in [safety zone] and add [fade] and that puts you at 10. Your buff cap is 9 due to [daino] 1 and you will notice [fade] will erase 1 of the previous buffs.
Do that and you disprove the claim that “[daino] prevents buffs erasing buffs”.
Buff limit would only make sense to begin with if the buffs in this game actually needed any kind of timing, i can count on one hand the buffs that actually fits that criteria.
The only thing you really need to think about as a thauma for example is if your other party members that can buff already used theirs so you can overwrite them with yours, that’s a really deep and interesting gameplay mechanic if you ask me.
It’s pretty much an useless annoyance at this point, the fact they changed some buffs being a primary buff or not (or the fact such a divide exists to begin with), added more buff slot randomly to two of the four archetype, added an attribute to increase the amount of buff slots after a random rank just shows it’s pretty much a terrible system nobody likes or enjoy. I’d even say Daino scroll still being a thing while they kinda acknowledged once said scroll is killing krivis purpose and they kept destroying pardoner left and right with no remorse beforehand shows the system is terrible.
Yeah, it seems Erokhi already suggested it. I think those too options are enough. And “switch” would be like another skill that applies infinite duration rank 2 buff. It’s easy to implement, easy to understand and easy to use. And most importantly not too strong to affect the balance in a bad way.
I really do think that having control on buff priority is too strong for players to have (also partially provided with Diano) and will kill a lot of fun with buff managing.
I think that since Krivis are unpopular then there won’t be too much Diano Scrolls out there. And if they become popular for some reason (Krivis buffs etc.), then having lots of Diano scrolls won’t be a big issue. Right now you just need krivis for buffs just like you need priest for revive. Both are very important but neither is a must. Though other Krivis skills are lacking (especially 14 hit max zaibas, at least they should make it real AoE, not “get 14 hits faster on diffetent mobs”).
Right now money farming jobs are mostly useful as fillers for fighter classes, to get some idle money and utility, bc silver is not account wide. And pardoner is mosly taken for PD incinerate duration.
This is a suggestion I like. I wonder why you even opposed me so much if you think like this. I was dissatisfied only with locking option. I should’ve really read all those posts but not only the last 20.
But making it toggleable is even better.
You will still need a good communication so you will know when you need to toogle it on/off to ignore harmful buffs/recieve necessary buffs. So buffer will just write/say shortcut of a buff and you will decide if you need it or not. Maybe some ingame signals through ctrl+buff button would be great. It will bring even more communication and fun.
This one also sounds pretty good for me. We can combine it with turn on/off external buffs option. Maybe add 1 line for self buffs with total amount of buffs on 1+2 = buff cap. And then self buffs will rewrite only self buffs, external buffs can rewrite only external, and recieving external buffs can be turned off. Of course you will still be able to erase buffs with rightclick. This way you will get partial control on your buffs but not too much. Technically you will be able to “lock” your buffs, but if you turn off nobuff stance, capella will still erase up to 5 of your buffs, so you will need to use it carefully.
The other possible solution is totally rework buff system by doubling the buff cap and making more powerful buffs cost 2(or even 3) slots. And make it that way so 2 slot buffs won’t be overwritten with 1 slot buffs. As well as 3 slot buffs won’t be erased by 2 slot. But it will really need a lot of work, so I doubt they will implement it.
Krivis is a second Peltasta, but peltasta can’t be replaced with Daino scroll) And still, Highlander do rely on other Peltastas. But I got your point.[quote=“zhouyu47, post:106, topic:136969”]
and for the Chaplain you end up having to take Krivis at rank 6, literally only for Daino
[/quote]
Only if you are relying on capella too much. You can cancel unnecesary skills otherwise (like why the heck do you need monstrance and aspersio on mage). Still I think they did it on purpose, it’s the only thing stopping me from going straight forward Cleric C2 Chaplain PD(though I will go it anyway because of Daino Scrolls). It would be just too good if Chaplain had a way to avoid external buff erasion bc of capella. If you go cleric C2 priest C2 you can perform quite great w/o Krivis just because most of your buffs are class specific, so classes who don’t need some of them will cancel them. There are only 2 buffs you need on everyone: Revive and Divine Might (Blessing is optional). DEX builders will also need monstrance, and tank might like aspersion. Sacrament is an option for bonus damage just like blessing. You can get it or cancel depending on your team. You will get 5 more slots for buffs in the end. And when you fight bosses just use Daino scroll and keep all the buffs.
It’s pretty easy to manage comfort play with just those 7 buff slots. You just have to be clever when deciding what buffs you really need. And getting Krivis just to be able to have blessing on is not the best idea on my opinion. Though Krivis is essential for mage heavy parties and especially Spiritual chain builds, otherwise you will have to spend too much gold on Daino scrolls. My suggestion was buffing Krivis so you won’t feel like you get it only for free Daino scrolls, but to make thos free Daino scrolls just another quality of life bonus. Suggestions on how to do it I’ve listed above.
If you guys are interested, I can made another thread for this.
The problem is, your buff limit will basically become flooded with most important buffs only, and getting Krivis will help you to get only additional unimportant buffs. It’s hard to find 7 really important buffs for each class. The rare exception is Thaum who occupies 2 (3 for mages/4 for self) buff slots with super important buffs. So I suggested increasing his buff limit to the level of priests/swordsmen.
Yet my point about Daino
is still true. You don’t want to have that monstrance on your mage, but you want that mostrance to not overwrite your Revive. By having longer line of buffs you make it easier to choose the best one for you. And I believe it’s true meaning of Daino. Without Daino, you will have more “buff pressure” per slot and it will be psychologically harder to maintain all useful buffs by erasing unnecesary ones.
That’s why I don’t like the idea of solving this “issue” from the start. For most classes it’s already pretty easy to maintain only usefull buffs, but you should understand well what buffs you need and why.
Very few particular classes actually have real problems with buff limit. I personally remember only Thaum, Linker (but Linker NEEDS Krivis in party to shine and they are main Krivis “users”, so it’s ok) and Chaplain.
Half of Thaum problems would be solved with adding buff limit class specific attribute, and it will be perfectly fine with Krivis in party.
The same goes to Chaplain, it can manage his buffs pretty well if not abusing capella too much.
To succeed you can just place capella slightly out of battle and player will decide if he wants to get capella buffs and rewrite his own by going to it, or it’s better to avoid it.
I’m saying this to point out that the issue is not THAT bad as people say and it’s always possible to avoid buff rewriting with proper communication.
But the broblem of braindead buffers remains.
That’s why I think that perfect and only one needed solution on this problem will be
adding stance/status that literally protects you from your party members buffs
AND
add “signals” for ctrl(alt/shift/anybutton) + skillbutton that show/write in chat remaining cd on skill to party members. It can be used to tell your party that this buff will be next to cast so they will be able to turn on/off their “shields” if they don’t want it. So you will be able to filter all unnecesary buffs and get onlt important ones.
This way everyone but people who want every single buff w/o Daino will be happy, because it solves all the problems listed.
The only problem left is that Krivis is taken just for Diano. That’s why I will repeat my suggestions here for people who missed them.
Zalciai buff is useful for physical damage dealers, but not as useful as universal revive. Also it’s useless for mages while Priest gas Blessing. And circle 2 Krivis is downright worse then circle 2 Priest.
So I suggested those changes:
Zalciai magic amplification attribute should have 10 levels instead of 4.
Zaibas should have true AoE on attribute, not just spend 3 hits per shot on 3 mobs. This will make it very solid damage option comparable to Druids carnivory if you have high enough AoE attack ratio and stacked mobs.
Those 2 changes alone will make this class much more viable alternative to Priest.
And together with the first change(buff protection) and small tweaks for a few specific classes the situation will look like this:
-Daino is not necesary for every build, because you can relatively easy keep all your important buffs if you manage your buffs right.
-Only specific buff heavy builds will require Daino to shine.
-You will get Krivis not as Daino caster, but as an utility class who can cast Daino for free as a “bonus”. This way you will be able to keep all those useless buffs like aspersion and won’t need to care about buff limit.
-So Priest would be mostly support class with a bit of offensive buffs and revive. Higher skill cap for buff management, but higher potential due to revive.
-Krivis would be mostly offensive support class with good damage/offensive buffs and some utility buffs(Daino and Aukuras). Low skill cap, but more offense.
-You can take lots of various builds this way: Priest C2 paired with Diev/Krivis/Cleric/Pardoner/Paladin/C3+Chaplain/Bokor/Monk for more defensive builds, or Krivis C2 paired with different combinations for more offensive builds. Or sacrifice some utility and get both.
This way they Cleric tree will look just Perfect for me with Sadhu being the only weak point. So with this changes we will have all the problems with buff limit solved and Cleric tree will become the most balanced and diverse.
I would like you guys to suggest how to improve it further regarding buff limit part and I will make separate topic with listed suggestion to address to admins. But I won’t do it before most of the people here agree with those suggestions, so there will be close to no players unhappy with the changes if they ever become implemented.
Would be glad to hear your feedback. Hopefully there will be no unnecesary offense this time.
I think a very simple way to resolve this problem is to have 3 self-buffs slots and 2 universal slots? Daino could increase the number of universal slots.
This way self-buffs could overflow into the universal slot but can be overwritten by party buffs, while self-buff slots cannot be overwritten by party buffs.
I dont know, this setup feels better where krivis can still maintain his role and everyone still has to manage their own buffs. Yet the problem of overwriting important buffs is resolved. For more important party buffs, its up to the party management rather than blaming on the game system.
I think I’ve already answered this question before. I haven’t played CBT, so I’m not sure what server I will choose at OBT. If there will be european server, then it will be my choice. Otherwise I would go random one.
If they needed any kind of timing buff limit would be unnecesary.
It is here for you to think what buffs do you need and make a choice what to keep and what to drop. It IS a very interesting and unique mechanic and lots of people enjoy it a lot.
As for pardoner, C1 is perfect class for PD, while C2 and C3 are truly bad, I should admit. I would like for C1 to remain as it is and for C2/C3 to get some impactful changes.
I’ve already suggested a way how to make Krivis much more viable w/o a need to rely on Daino too much.
I will just ignore those false accusations from now on, they are much more irrelevant to the topic then my posts. My point was to shown that Krivis changes were on list of suggestions. So if we do change Krivis we should look at him as a whole, not just Diano part.
So do I. Listing suggestions/opinions on buff limit and topics relevant to it.
I have to admit it’s true. You really can have 26 debuffs from 2 clerics if you grab various classes with max buffs per rank. But I have no information how much of them are rank 2 debuffs. Mage tree has much less buffs. You can get 16 at most (including 3 buffs from rune caster 2 of which are useless, all other classes have 1 debuff per rank). Yeah, together it’s 42 buffs, ~10 of them is utterly useless and ~10 you can drop without any regrets. So you get around 22 buffs per character with 4 support classes. Take into account that such a team will be totally useless, and it will still be able to maintain important buffs w/o overwriting, because when you have 23-25 buff slots you will most likely have at least 5-6 spare slots (with at least semi-adequate build) so even if your chaplain casts capella near you, your buffs won’t be overwritten. Even if situations when Diano won’t prevent your buffs from erasing are possible, it still prevents them from erasing quite effectively if you are not dumb. And if you are, then sorry for you.
I start to have a feeling like I’m talking with a monkey who was given a car. It stuffed bananas all over the car and complains that the car doesn’t work.
By prevention I mean exactly what I said: prevention. Though I do include common sense and logic by default when talking about prevention. And when you say it doesn’t prevent buffs erasing each other, it seems you don’t include common sense and logic at all. In real game situations it will always prevent your important buffs unless you have the whole party of mindless bots including yourself.
Also, I would really like to see how you will struggle with such a team (2 suppoty cleric 2 support mages and archer) in earth tower if you levelled to 280 without learning how to cancel buffs. If your main problem would be buff erasing each other then you are really a happy person.
But honestly, I’m tired of your pointless arguments, I doubt you yourself think they prove anything. So please, just stop.
Or maybe, I’ve really overestimated you as a debater and you are just typical net troll. Then it’s a bit sad I’ve wasted so much time answering your arguments.
I think Transpose in itself shouldn’t take a party buff slot. I’m sure there are other character abilities like it that should follow suite. It offers nothing for the party, is only for myself, and having it overwritten by someone else is silly. The same could be said for any other self-buff that doesn’t affect the party. Just because the team has 0/5 buffs active doesn’t mean I do, and with Transpose, I’d be at 1/5. Asking the party to sacrifice that buff slot by not casting more than 4 total party buffs between everyone is also silly since they wouldn’t be allowed to have 5 either (else my transpose gets erased).
Daino as a remedy, sure, it works. Sure, talking “works” if your party is willing to give up a buff slot for it or if they are lucky to have a self-only buff as well in their build they could use to make up the difference. But Daino wouldn’t be less effective if we were able to lock a (I’ll concede a little here) limited number of buffs.
Or just re-evaluate which buffs are tier1 and tier2 because Transpose taking up a party slot is… yeah. They’ve had better ideas than making a self-cast only buff take up a slot that can, and often does, get overwritten. Hell even Quick Cast and Sure Spell take up my slots, and Quick Cast lasts just a handful of seconds.
But back to Daino being useless if we could protect our buff slots.
Let’s say the party is myself as a Thaum and whoever else, you can make up any number of other members in your head, they’ll all work. Let’s say we decide on party buffs and communicate flawlessly. I will buff fap left, fap right, ego head. That’s 3 slots immediately taken and nobody would contest their effectiveness as “reasonably important” buffs. Because this is what Thaum does. I can’t recall specifics but the last I played at least, as a wiz, I was allowed a maximum of 5 slots. Afaik that may have been changed slightly for other classes, maybe even wiz, not too sure. But for the example let’s stick with 5.
We decide then next that we’ll use sacrament and enchant fire. Boom. That’s 5. Ignore everyone elses buffs because this is what the party decided. Okay.
But wait, we’ll scratch out fap right because I can’t cast that AND have Transpose, the moment I cast it again Transpose will reset and I’ll have to scramble to heal all over again. And we aren’t dropping sac or fire so it has to be one of my buffs. Well @$@%, guess the party agrees to run 4/5 buffs so I can Transpose instead of fap right. Just hope that some other class doesn’t have more innate slots to fill since they can’t go over your max of 4 free slots anyway and they’d be losing out on even more party buff slots just to appease you.
And I better not even think about casting Quick Cast (eats a tier1 slot) or Sure Spell (also eats a tier1 slot) because, well, then I’d be shafting myself.
If I could lock the slot then I could Transpose and still cast all 3 Thaum buffs, forfeiting on myself only one buff that the party would have but I would not. I don’t gain anything except my Transpose (or whatever buff you want for your character) is there and I still lose a different buff that would be effective. I could sacrifice another to cast Quick Cast if I need to. But I would be protecting my important buff via locking.
There is still a trade-off there and I still have to forfeit a buff when giving it to the party. I don’t automatically not need Daino just because I protected an important spell from being overwritten. I still lose something else even if I lock that one.
Again, wouldn’t be necessary if they moved Transpose and other self-cast buffs, especially if it only affects you and nobody else.
Likewise if we have Daino, I could still lock Transpose depending on the Daino level, but we could be much much stronger as well, as I’d shoot up from bouncing around my 4 buff slots to play with up to ridiculous levels. I’d be able to Sure Spell, Quick Cast, Transpose, fap buffs all around with every single party member also casting their buffs.
And at max? I don’t feel that +16 is anything to scoff at and Daino would certainly be useful even if I can protect the one buff I need. Instead of having only 4 actual buffs + Transpose I’d have 20+ total buff slots that can all be potentially filled. The potential there to be overstacked with all kinds of goodies isn’t anything trivial even if a couple of the slots are just for Reflect Shield etc. Saying that Daino wouldn’t be useful is just like saying that no other buffs the party has to offer, except those we agreed on, would be useful at all. In that example each of those important buffs listed could be from just 2 people (pyro thaum, priest). If Daino wouldn’t have any use because I could lock the buffs I need then it’s basically the same as saying the 4 other people in the party can’t offer a single buff worth having lol
I digress. Locking wouldn’t be needed at all if they re-thought which buffs can be overwritten in the first place. Transpose, and a few others (and likely many more that I’m unaware of) should definitely not take up an active buff slot that the party will resent you for. They may have to give up their own slot just to make sure your self-only buff is safe.
@Derael Thank you for your posts in the thread. Whether we agree or disagree I think that your posts have been well-constructed. The more voices the better at any rate. Ultimately these are all just opinions of players and it will be up to development if they even choose to listen or are adamant in their ways (rip lol)
Except, you haven’t actually experienced any of that. I have. You don’t even know which buffs go to primary and which don’t. You don’t even know some buffs can’t just be canceled. You just assumed all buffs could be canceled the same way via right click.
Also, 2 clerics + 2 wizards isn’t just support. But you wouldn’t know that because you haven’t played. You just assume they are support because they have a lot of buffs.
Regarding debates. I’ve been following the format of a proper debate. Someone starts by raising a point. Then the other party addresses the said point and proceeds to disprove it by raising counter points. Repeat until all members of each party have said their piece. That is a debate.
I’ve addressed only point you’ve made and focused only on what you’ve said. These arguments you call pointless can be verified and act as counter arguments to address specific points you’ve made.
You on the other hand have continually ignored proven and verifiable information if the information is detrimental to your point. You also go off topic a lot. But then that is to be expected from someone who hasn’t played.
@Shadeborn
IMC’s actually started doing this (hopefully they do more) with cat buffs going 2ndary slots. I really do wish self buffs go 2ndary too because the really constant offenders are party buffs anyway. Something like [transpose] can’t erase buffs on someone else.
Sadly buffs aren’t so black and white. [safety zone] for example can be really frustrating. If you get knocked into it “poof” there goes 1 slot (and what ever buff was in it). They can’t transfer too much though.
Oh, nevermind. I’m tried of this pointless trashtalk. You sure are a top player that knows everything and I’m just a noob who hasn’t even counquered Earth Tower with 2 priests 2 wizards party. Sure I do know nothing about this game comparing to the great and powerful you.So my opinion isn’t worth mentioning.
But you know, instead of writing all those statements about irrelevance of my posts you could’ve posted at least some useful information to actually push the discussion forward.
If you know buffs that can’t be removed show us the list.
If you know rank 2 buffs why not to name them.
If you are making an example of build that will overfill lvl 16 Diano limit and is able to conquer Earth Tower w/o a tank, then name at least classes it has.
Otherwise it’s nothing but overly exaggerated statements with imaginary builds. They don’t bring any useful information to this thread.
And how the hell going off topic is connected with someone playing a game or not, it’s another bunch of this strange logic.
I wonder how you even dare to call my posts irrelevant if most of your posts is trash talking.
Sure my replies to you trash talk are also irrelevant here, but at least I suggested several solutions to actual problem that won’t hurt Krivis and totally solve it.
I would really like to see the list of “verified” arguments that you’ve provided and the list of “specific points” they counter. And if something is verified then just give me a good example. Things like “non support party of clerics/mages with 25 buffs, maybe even removable” doesn’t count as verified. At least list their circle choices required.
I also wonder what build are you personally using in kToS? Do you have any achievements besides launching the game to behave so arrogantly?
Yeah, in one of my rants in a different thread (I think my review of icbt2 post, mainly dealing in my disappointment in Necromancer lol) I also mentioned the annoyance that is Safety Zone lol I feel you there.
Being a Thaum I’d have to get in the fray a lot when grinding dp2 for instance since Swell/Shrink have an incredibly short range. Which, in turn, meant I would be Transposed in that role so I could debuff the enemies and not die immediately since I was forced into melee range nearly the entire time. Of course though I’d draw the attention of whichever vigilant Cleric type was in our party and would find a safety zone suddenly under my feet.
Thank you kindly, nearly every Cleric type I ever partied with, for never dropping heal tiles when I needed them and instead trying your hardest to cast every other spell you can once you see my health go “red” from casting Transpose, forcing it farther and farther to the left of my buff list so that it can drop even sooner.
This was especially the case nearly every boss fight whether communicated or not. Safety Zone eating a buff slot was very common because in some encounters the boss and their telegraphs would force the party into one of few safe spots, usually resulting in a mass of people standing on top of each other. I can’t be too bothered because the other party members benefited… but me? Huehue… sad day.
Yeah, I also think Transpose should be rank 2. But talking about other buffs, you would really want Krivis C1/C2 in party with Thaum to feel comfortable. Mage with qc/ss and thaum buffs is 5 out of 7 already, so 2 spare buff slots, but it’ll be hard to maintain all you need (though still possible if they add buff block function). Typical Cleric has 2 to 5 buffs you would like to use but I’d prioritize divine might for better swell brain/arms and longer transpose though after casting you can cancel it and utilise revive/bloodletting/whatever.
As I said, I’m note sure what Rank 2 statuses clerics/mages have(like diev cdr) so you might have even more usefull buffs on yourself even w/o Krivis.
I also think Spiritual chain should be rank 2 but it will make C3 linkers too OP, so it’s not the best idea.
