Now: if you have Diano your important buffs are safe and you can even apply tons of semi useless buffs.
If locking umplemented: your important buffs are safe always. So Diano only grants the ability to have more semiuseless buffs. Taking class for this? Nah.
If you name me >9 buffs you need no matter what then I will agree you are right. Otherwise Diano will be almost useless because 9 the most important are already taken.
Sure this change will help most of you but it will harm Krivis. Is Krivis OP so we need to nerf it indirectly? No. Can you cancel buffs you don’t need? Yes. Problem solved. You want 9 active buffs w/o a risk to lose oldest occasionally? Get Krivis.
As I said we can make infinite SP for everyone and it will “help most of us”. But classes that focus on increasing SP will suffer. The same is with buff system.
If you use 3-5 buffs, you don’t need lock system. If you use more you need a Diano. Otherwise classes with strong buffs get too much advantages.
And yes, Thaum is different case, it needs some help. Because it can’t perform w/o Krivis in party. Cleric classes don’t need buffs, as they have higher buff cap. Other mage classes have very few rank 1 buffs, so no buff needed as well.
You have a problem. There are several ways to solve it using existing mechanics. The best way is including Krivis in your party.
You suggest removing problem from the game. It will make those ways to solve it useless => indirectly nerf Krivis who specializes in solving this particular problem.
Most classes don’t suffer from this problem too much. Clerics and Fighters have very high buff limit, mages have very few important buffs. The only class that really suffers is Thaumaturge. His own buffs eat 4 slots out of 7. So you can solve it by adding attribute specifically for Thaum(or other mages with 4+ buffs) that will increase buff cup by 1 or 2 to match clerics and fighters.
Other classes can easily live with the fact that they have to cleverly use their buffs. If they don’t want to bother with buff cancelling they can buy Diano scrolls. Level 4 should be enough to solve 95% of problems.
I can see your concern about having unlimited buffs but for implementing a lock to keep certain ones shouldn’t be an issue.
People shouldn’t feel like they need to take a tier in a class without a choice or have one in the party no matter what. Krivis is still good because it adds more buffs and if you’re worried about the scroll taking the place of Krivis, there was rumors about how imc is probably going to rework Pardoner’s Simony so there’s a possibility that Daino scrolls may not exist in the future. If they were to remove the buff limit they’d probably rework Krivis’s Daino.
But either way, preventing conveniences and securing heartaches for everyone is super selfish just for the sake of securing your own class’s usefulness when they are still useful in different ways regardless.
It’s only a rumours and I don’t think those scrolls should be removed. For the same reason why HP/SP pots exist. Scrolls are optional but expensive.
I see no reason why Krivis should NOT be desired class in every party. We already have a “must” tanks and healers. So why buff manager shouldn’t be must?
Now you have to chose between more heal/revive/stone skin/chaplain and proper buff management. If you will be able to easily keep all important buffs then why would you pick Krivis over Priest? Right now Krivis is very important Quality of life class that solves ALL possible buff problems you can have. And still, it’s hard to decide between him and priest.
If the biggest buff problem (yeah, it’s not the buff cap but buff overwriting) will be solved by default, then Krivis will become totally useless(in comparsion with priest).
And I’m not playing the game yet and I will personally get Priest over Krivis in my build while spamming Diano scrolls.
So I don’t protect “my” class. I’m rather protecting the class viability.
It was a hard choice back then but if they add locking it will become obvious choice and I don’t like it. I would rather prefer some buffs so I could pick it over priest. Right now priest is still much stronger and will become even stronger if you remove buff overwriting (just imagine how OP capella will become with this option).
If they ever remove Diano scrolls then this issue might need another solution. Right now it’s the “law” of the game, and players have to adapt to it just like to SP consumption.
And if you are buying SP pots to solve SP problems why not buy Diano scrolls to solve buff problems?
Sure it will be much less heartchaes because someone ran out of SP if we would be able to “lock” a few skills that won’t cost SP. So it is totally altruistic to grant such ability to everyone.
The thing is you can create several different kinds of healers and tanks but there’s only one class that’s Krivis.
I agree with wanting more class diversity but the issue is that IMC made too much emphasis on the Priest class and I really think they need to fix that. Chaplain and Pardoner have reliance on these both compared to every other class in the cleric tree do have synergies but not direct reliance.
With that same logic, [daino] scrolls make [daino] (the actual skill from the krivis) IRRELEVANT. IMC already has a stand on this. They WANT krivis to be relevant as THE buff slot buffer. The scrolls made krivis irrelevant. That’s why there were talks about removing [daino] from [simony] and/or reworking [simony] itself.
Locking buffs does not diminish [daino]s ability to allow for more buffs. More buffs is STILL more buffs and that is better than less buff. That is the point of [daino], not this “protect important buffs”. That is a side effect people observe from using the skill’s intended purpose. Again, [daino] is not there to protect your buffs. It is there to increase the buff cap.
To emphasize this point, imagine 30 important buffs created by IMC as we reach rank 10. With a krivis’s help you can get up to 9 + 16 (+1 with [divine might]) for 26 buffs. [daino] does NOTHING to protect the other 4 important buffs. All it did was raise the buff cap by 17, nothing more. The FACT is buffs CAN still be erased while [daino] is active. So ENOUGH of this nonsense argument that locking buffs takes away from [daino]s ability to protect buffs because it DOESN’T DO THAT.
No it does not harm the krivis. Wanting more buffs still warrants needing the krivis. Having daino scrolls is what harms krivis because it takes the krivis OUT of the party.
There is 1. [daino] scrolls.
Why waste a party slot on someone with 3 “useless ranks” (I say useless because those 3 ranks only get you [daino] - which is already covered by scrolls - and [zaibas]) instead of anything else? Look at the choices:
Ranks in cleric are more and more relevant because of tile scaling for heal AND now we find out that fade protects against magic circles.
Priests with scrolls are better than actually having the krivis. Even better if that priest goes chaplain.
This is just from ranks 2-4. Back tracking to krivis when you are already above rank 4 is a whole other thing.
It is amazing that you keep mentioning scrolls yet fail to see that these things hurt the krivis THE MOST.
Thank god you,Raven and others understand what Daino actually does unlike someone…
Perfect example where buff lock system would be important is in the PVP arena where you CANNOT use Daino scrolls or any type of scrolls.That lock system would help a lot because at the start of every round people would like to buff themselves and the party.
Imagining is not a right way.
Imagine IMC will make armor that grants immortality so we won’t need priests.
When they do it, then we should think how to solve it. Diano scrolls are quite expensive, so I personally would like to have Krivis in my party. But it’s others skills are not good enough, that’s a problem. Krivis/Pardoner is decent fighting class with good money making potential and needs no big changes on my opinion. But Krivis needs some love for it’s secondary abilities (for example make zaibas as the most useless Krivis skill AoE and it will do).
There are quite few important buffs right now (around 15-20 in total) and you can’t have all of them in one party. And why do you think that increasing buff cap is the main reason for Diano(maybe you can read developers thoughs?). I see buff cap increase and preventing buff erasion as 2 equally important reasons. So removing 1 will halve Diano power.
Diano scrolls are expensive(and they should be), so using 1-2 slots out of 35(per party) to solve this broblem seems legit for me if we will also have other profits from it.
Right now Krivis benefits only physical damage parties and Zaibas damage is meaningless.
Cleric C2 is a must in every party, I think, because it’s too good to not take. Divine might grants tons of free “levels” and more heal tiles is great. So we have to compare priest vs krivis.
C2 Priest grants more heal and 2 revives while C2 Krivis grants more buff slots in future for free, some free stats and 1 ability with insignifficant damage. Diano scrolls make Krivis not that essential class for a price. So the solution should be not removing diano scrolls but makin diano not the most important Krivis skill by buffing others.
I can see great uses of melstis with higher ranks(when there will be 20+ important buffs) but now it’s much less viable then stone skin/chaplain buffs.
My final thoughs are, that Krivis needs some buffs for Zaibas(make it AoE without eating several hits per strike) and maybe Aukuras. Also having some more magic damage amplification for Zalciai would be great(48 is so meh, at least 120 needed(60 average damage), just make 10 lvls max). With such changes it will be perfectly fine and I would definitely pick Krivis C2/C3 in some builds over chaplain/priest C2. Divine stigma is fine, I think. It’s much weaker buff then Thaum Swell brain but amplifies both physical and magic damage. Melstis has great potential as well.
For sure I’m comparing Krivis only to priest since other Ranks is a diffrent story.
Yeah, lets make chaplains even more op in PvP so they won’t have to care about capella rewriting other buffs.
Also when they launch new classes/ranks IMC can once again increase max buff cap. They did it 2 times already.
The idea here is to make you choose what buffs you want to use and have at least 1 or 2 spare buf slots to immediately cancel unnecesary debuffs as soon as they appear. This way your buffs won’t ever be erased but you can’t use more then 6 buffs at the same time (8 as priest/sw).
Right, because immortality armor is way more likely to happen than 30 buffs.
Expensive is “irrelevant” because silver is laughably easy to make at the levels where a 15 [daino] scroll becomes needed (150 up). I had a [spell shop] pardoner and I made more money in the field hunting gear than I would afk selling buffs.
Irrelevant to the discussion as we are discussing the buff cap and possible solutions to the problem of erasing buffs.
“Important” is relative. Chaplains consume 9 buff slots already. Hell, raids are coming and we don’t even know how that would work buff-cap-wise.
Because that is what it DOES.
No where there does it say “Protects your buffs” or “Prevents your buffs from being erased” or anything to that effect.
Buffs while under the effect of [daino] CAN STILL BE ERASED.
I don’t need to read the developers mind (I wouldn’t mind having that power though).
This is all subjective chatter that ignores the issue presented. 3 ranks spent on a c3 krivis is COVERED by a scroll. The krivis is nothing without [daino] and that is what [daino] scrolls do, reduce a krivis to nothing.
Irrelevant to the discussion as all this does is state what you want the krivis to be and contributes nothing to the topic of “buff limit”.
Subjective opinion. Stick to the facts.
The buff cap was increase LOOOOOOOOONG after new classes were introduced. They introduced the chaplain (a class requiring c3 priest therefore capable of exceeding the buff cap of 5 by himself) and yet did not increase the buff cap. They introduced rank 7 but that patch did not increase the buff cap.
Also, by your logic, IMC can’t increase the buff cap again because it takes too much away from [daino].
Again, this is only opinion. Now where has IMC stated that “this” is how we must play. Stick to the facts.
Sure you do. Afk selling is only to make some profits when you afking. If it could bring you more money why whould you ever need to grind? As I understand IMC politics, “farming” classes are more like fighter classes with some ability to make idle money. Only alchemist is an exception, because it has literally no battle ability (explosion is super bad).
It’s relevant, because it indirectly affects the problem. If Krivis would be buffed, so people will pick it more often, then no need to remove Diano scrolls => no need to “fix”(I mean break) buff erasing system, as with more Krivis players you will less likely face this problem and if you do from time to time, you can use Diano scrolls. So no problem anymore.
Ideally number of Krivis players (at least C1) should be more then 50% of all Clerics at least. So you will have to use Diano scrolls in less then half dungeon runs.
It is not. If you are mage then you don’t really need most of Chaplains buff except maybe blessing. And tanks who need most of them have 2 extra buff slots.
Show me the damaging skill where it’s said in the description that it kills the enemy. Still, the main purpose of damaging skills is killing the enemy.
The description describes the effect. What is the MEANING of that effect you should understand by yourself.
Enemies you damage can still survive LOL. That sort of arguments is like saying: “you still have 1% chance to hit this stone skinned enemy with your snipe, why complain”.
This is downright wrong statement. Krivis grants useful buffs (crit chance and crit damage, STR/INT, HP recovery) and has the ability to prolong ANY buff by 30 seconds, even those that usually last 2-3 seconds. I hope you can imagine how powerful it can be. The only weak skills in Krivis tree is Zaibas, and somewhat Aukuras(but it’s pure utility skill so I won’t complain too much and just ignore it). You don’t really need more then 8-9 ranks in Diano, so if you want Krivis for just Diano you can get Krivis C2(Or Krivis C1 pre rank 8) and be happy. As I’ve already said lvl 5 Diano is enough now in 95% cases.
Facts are there are 25 clerics in top 50 PvP. I doubt they are mostly Krivis players. And another fact is that according to the formula (if it’s correct), Stone Skin grants 220%(!) additional block chance with Heavy SPR build. So it’s literally immunity to physical damage. But I agree, it’s offtopic.
They increased buff cap to 7 for clerics. And they increased buff cap by 1 at the beginning of kOBT.
Where IMC stated that you should use SP potions to avoid running out of SP? I assume such things are obvious taking into account how mechanics works and don’t need to be specifically “stated” by developers. Devs don’t usually go to the forums just to say: “deal damage to kill the enemy”.
How does locking your own buffs has to do anything with chaplain being “OP”… LMAO pls man just stop.
(FYI I know what Capella does)
And it’s spelled Daino NOT Diano
Like dude read what your typing because you make no sense.Who the hell would want their buffs override.And tossing other things that has nothing to with the buff limit nor the lock system.
Daino does not effect the lock system if they implement it the way many discussed in this thread.
You have a plaster for every sore…LOL @c2gaming I give up LOL ,this guy acts this way in every thread…
The only downside of chaplain is that capella actually occupies 5 of your buff slots. If you will be able to prevent it there will be no downsides.
Maybe it has no sense for you, but it doesn’t mean it’s wrong.
Nobody wants their buffs override so they should do something to avoid it. It’s part of the game. Lets remove gem dropping.
Who the hell want their gems drop. Let’s remove gem dropping on 2 and 3 star maps. Those arguments really piss me off.
About other things I’m “tossing”, they are connected with consequences of removing buff overwriting issue by adding lock system.
This locking system is indirect buff to every class that has lots of buffs(like chaplain). Because now chaplain should be very careful to not reset ally buffs or has to get Krivis at least c1.
If IMC implement lock system such classes will be able to simply spam their buffs without much care, and party members will choose most useful for them. When you can choose most important buffs for your build you don’t need buff cap increase that much. That’s indirect nerf to Diano I’m talking about. If you don’t understand what I mean, just think a bit more. If you do understand but don’t, then explain me why I’m wrong.
Until now I’ve only heard statements that people don’t like buffs overwriting one another. But you didn’t give any good reason why they should not. If it was issue impossible to overcome, then I agree it should be fixed. But I’ve listed you at least 4 ways to overcome it w/o locking system and you provided no counter arguments why these ways are not enough.
Give me an example where issue with overwritting buffs ruins balance of the game and I will tell you why it does not and how to overcome it.
Like I care)
Not in every sore, only if I think that I understand what’s going on well enough. I ask more often then answer actually.
Not exactly, but I think it’s better then buff locking system in current environment. Because I don’t see any problem concerning buff overwriting, while I DO see some problems with buff locking system.
Not the place to discuss this. Stick to the topic.
It is irrelevant because all you are saying is “I think this is how to improve the krivis tool kit”. Improving the krivis does not solve the issue of buffs erasing buffs. People didn’t really mind having only 5 buffs much. They mind that buffs can erase buffs.
And yet they are forced on you just because you are part of the party. It does not matter if buffs are “important” to you or not when you have no choice but to accept them.
See it’s funny you mention this because damage skills are just that, “skills that do damage”. Skills are very specific about how much damage they do. They can’t kill when targets have more HP than the damage the skill does. The main purpose of a damage skill is to do damage unless stated otherwise. Should a target happen to die is because they reach 0 hp, NOT because a skill was used on them (unless stated otherwise - like in the case with decatose).
The point was to say that it is WRONG to say “[daino] protects buffs” because [daino] does not prevent buffs from being erased. Incidentally, this is the kind of argument to counter your previous point …
This is the “discussion buff limit” thread. The only reason krivis is mentioned is because of [daino]. A scroll COVERS what ever reason the krivis is even mentioned in this discussion. That is why a krivis is NOTHING in this discussion, because the reason it is even mentioned is COVERED by a scroll.
If you want to discuss what it would take to make an efficient [daino] krivis, go to the cleric section and post there.
And I say again, irrelevant to the discussion of the topic of “buff limit”
And the patch increasing the buff cap did not come WITH the introduction of the new classes. It came well after that. kOBT started in Dec last year, the buff cap was increased around Feb this year. 2 - 3 months is a long time.
YOU stated people should keep 1 - 2 buff slots open to prevent buffs from erasing buffs (via canceling trash buff).
See that, this is you.
And yeah, this all just “you” making assumptions and then saying this is “truth”
And the point about saying this
is because IMC is not dictating such specific rules in how to play their game. We have a couple of tips and hints from the ingame help. In FACT, part of the tutorial SAYS to use SP pots so you don’t run out. There was 1 for HP pots, and another for SP pots. So there, IMC DID say to use pots to not run out of SP.
Btw there are game mechanics for things like that. Also killing monsters is pretty intuitive because of HP bars AND the fact the IMC used tried and tested mechanics use in other games. The iCBT2 buff cap (7 for swordie and 5 for the rest) was pretty specific to ToS at the time (therefor not intuitive and DOES warrant explaining).
@Loztchild meh, I have writer’s block atm. I have no idea how to motivate a character for a story to “go save the goddess”. This is a good distraction.
There is no “issue”. There is a mechanic of buff overwriting. And if you don’t like it, it doesn’t mean IMC should change it. And what I stated will help to deal with this mechanic pretty well.
And other people don’t mind that buffs can erase buffs. Because they know how to deal with it. And they want Krivis for less micro required and more possible buffs applied.
While people who mind that buffs have to rely on Krivis and maybe they hate it, because maybe they don’t know that you can cancel buffs.
That’s why I mentioned damage. It’s just like diano doesn’t guarantee enemies death. But just as with diano enemies will most likely die, unless you have not enough damage (too low diano level). I’m pretty sure that max lvl Diano will be enough to keep if not all the possible buffs in the game, then all the buffs you may ever require on that character.
Krivis is the class that is solely about buff limit as you say. Then everything affecting buff limit affects Krivis as well. Making buff limit any less important will make Krivis weaker. That’s why I’m here to protect this class from making it even weaker then now. If you suggest things that will indirectly nerf it, I’m explaining why it shouldn’t be implemented.
That’s because it’s kOBT. They tested it and came to a conclusion that buff limit is needed.
And YOU stated buffs shouldn’t be erased. So what?
And I stated it, because it’s obvioud for me.
Actually I offered you a way to avoid this issue, so tell me please why it’s not enough?
My point is, that adding locking option is the same as cheating. If we assume that classes with lots of buffs are as powerful as classes with few buffs, then making such change will make former much more powerful, because they will be able to alway keep their main buffs. And for me it feels like classes with lots of buffs are STRONGER then classes with few buffs. So I don’t see any logical reason in buffing them this way.
Actually I have an alternative suggestion that won’t be so cheat-like.
Just make a “stance” with 0 cd that prevents you from getting new buffs from party members. This way you will be able to protect your buffs and it won’t be too OP. I wonder what counter arguments you will provide against that suggestion.
But Krivis needs buff anyway to make it viable though not must have class even with Daino scrolls present. So free Daino will become a nice bonus but not the only reason to pick the class. And forcing people to get Krivis in your party just for increased buff cap by removing Daino scrolls is wrong direction I think. I’m not even sure where did you get the information about possible removal of Daino scrolls, because it’s first time I hear about it.
And pls don’t tell me it’s irrelevant. We are free to discuss not only buff limit, but how it will affect the game in general and certain classes in particular. And Krivis is the one that will be affected the most. So I’m trying to make a suggestions about Krivis that indirectly will help solving the issue.
And that is the whole point of this thread. OP made this thread to discuss alternatives to “buffs erasing buffs” because OP and other like-minded users don’t like the current iteration of the mechanic.
Personally, this whole thing is RNG for me. I don’t mind having only 5 buffs. Let me have control of WHICH 5 buffs I can have. That’s just me though.
If IMC puts their foot down and says “this stays” then it’s something I got to live with or not play. However IMC increased the buff cap. So they at least acknowledge that people are having issue with it.
People know how to avoid it, either by not going over the buff cap or by extending the buff cap. People can’t protect their buffs though and that is what they (we) don’t like.
It would be an even smaller issue if buffs had 0 cd. Lost a buff? Just recast it. No biggie. But no.
It would be a slightly smaller issue if buffs didn’t have 100% uptime (in fact maybe really low uptime) so buffs only spike your offense and defense. But no. Take for example [quick cast] was changed to have 100% uptime.
And here’s the problem with canceling buffs. You have to GET the buff to cancel it. The buff you have to cancel has to erase a buff for you to cancel it. If the erased buff happens to be something the player wants then all it did was make the player feel helpless.
Wu … huh?
There are at LEAST 3 more ranks and we don’t know how many more buffs each new class adds to the table.
Except the nerfs you speak of don’t exist in the suggestion. Protecting buffs via lock does not provide an increase to the buff cap therefore that role still belongs to [daino] and [daino] ALONE. Since [daino] is still the only way to increase the buff cap, then there is no nerf to it.
And that is IMC’s response to the people saying “We have an issue with the buff cap”. The people said the buff cap was too low and it caused issues (for example buffs erasing buffs, people not having control over their own buffs) and IMC acknowledge it, hence the buff cap was raised.
And IMC’s conclusion was the buff cap was too low (it kinda supports OP and like-minded suggestions).
Kindly quote me on that.
That is purely YOUR opinion. You assume it is cheating because of personal reasons.
Damn, you are so annoying…
I’d love to party with you during a wboss fight and erase two of your buffs with “Reflect Shield” and “Enchant Fire”…
Anyway, if you’d really cared about what has been said in this thread, you would know that plenty of solutions have already been suggested… (=not only the one, I don’t care which one it is, that you’re so persistently trying to reject with your too many posts)
Read that sentence 3,4,5,10 times, maybe you’ll finally understand what this thread is about… (it’s not about nerfing krivis, damn how close-minded you should be to think that krivis, a damn r2 class, is only about daino and preventing buffs from being overwritten…)
