Tree of Savior Forum

Dear Wizards, this is "Truly the Darkest Age"

Class and Rank
#43

Even that, I dare say Ele is the only viable mid-rank right now for DPS wiz really. Thau and Chrono are support and have no offensive ability. Sorc and Necro. let’s say I am unimpressed by what they can offer. Alchemist is a $$ class.
Ok, Pyro is good but you can only go so far with it. C3 are not great at all.
Cyro c1 and c2 are mediocre at best. C3 is not much better. Ice Tree does no damage, long cd. Snowball has really long CD and cast time…
I am trying to be creative with Wiz build but honestly it is pretty difficult. The main problem is you need too many circle of 1 class to truly make it work. :\ If snowball is in C2 Cyro for example, Wiz Cyro 2 Pyro 2 Linker can be a thing.

Hopefully Rune Caster can add some dynamic to build…Oh wait I forget Psycho, you know coz pyscho…

#44

@xechidna
I mean look at sorc, except Summoning all of their other skills are just sad: Summon Familiar, Salamion, Evocation and Desmodus . They have worst C3 skill set in the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YliK3dxhk5s
Same with Necro. Raise Dead is the only good skill (C2), Flesh Cannon has good dmg but small radius and require charging like meteor (1s 1lv)
Double summoner was a thing in icbt2 but its not possible anymore

@Lanceis
Yeah, that’s a problem too, many classes require full C3 (wiz, cryo, ele) or a lot of investment (thaum) to be good.

#45

Except that if they wanted this to happen, then they wouldn’t restrict class choices with weapons (looking at swordsman, archers). Maybe its imc’s way to tell wizards to be also limited to their choice by something else then weapon, since all wizards use the same. Sometimes i wonder why they didnt make some of wizard rank up classes spells require different magical weapon, such as orbs or books.

I belive what they wanted to achieve is to make people play different classes at different level range, and thats all. But with the weapon changing (and the need to upgrade them) its really not convenient. People would prefer to build their own class mix the way they feel about the spells effects. I can tell you i was playing other game where 1 class could play as several different classes and changing at will based on what was needed, however there was no need to change any equipement while doing so. The old game named nostale. In that game as archer you were always equiped with bow and dagger and could use SP cards to transforms into ranger (upgraded version of the archer using bow, kinda like fletcher here in tos or a mix of fletcher and ranger of tos), assasin (dagger weapon skills based of dagger dmg, its a class like scout and rogue mixed togather with chain hook skill to pull and some dashing skills that cut enemy with dagger in process), wild keeper (skills use boomerangs but the power comes from bow) and destroyer (skills are like setting up traps, including heat seeking mini robots that explode once they reach enemy, shootgun or sending nuclear bomb on enemy (cannoneer?) but the power of all of those spells also comes from bow). I belive there are like 7 SP cards by now for each base class (mage, archer, swordsman) and they are planning to add more.

Perhaps imc could learn something from this game if they really want to achieve this and disable the weapon restrictions to spells just make animation different. Otherwise we can only complain that some class builds are the only way to go. Imc limit us too much, as if limit with rank up wasnt enough.

#46

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#47

Now the glass canon meta is probably going to be Wizard C3 -> Elementalis C3 -> Runecaster becaue lol 300% more damage to your ice property skills thanks to Isa (assuming they don’t change it at release), because Hail and Ice Cloud didn’t do enough damage alone and with Quick Cast as is.

But yeah Wizard is crazy flexible, you could even make it smacking on the physical way via a certain staff, it’s not going to be amazing but you can and still do fairly well overall if built right.

#48

I always respected the wiz 3 route and gave a like to all I cross paths with…

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#49

Is it really +300% ice damage or is it +300% damage as ice? I know 0 korean.

#50

Well, I played various wiz/cleric build to rank 5 and as you say in paper it might look good but:
Cyro: even with the recent buff, damage is abysmal, C3 skills have very long cd and one of them doesn’t even do damage.
Pyro: even if the dps fall off, but it still scales better than many high rank class. But C3 skill is not that great so at most you take 2 rank of it.
Linker: good in party, in solo and field boss, it is alright. Still the most wanted class for group thou.
Thau: take crazy money to get to that 749 number that people talk about, like a lot a lot,…And taking 3 rank without offensive ability, you are missing around 3-6 attack skills.
Sorc: other than Temple shooter, most summon are its skill are mediocre. I wouldn’t call their other summon good utility either. Even temple shooter get carried by linker, else it is alright.
Necro: I haven’t played much of them but their skills does not impress me much in term of scaling, especially their Raise Dead is now in C2.
Ele: good scaling but skills relied on stationary target. Long CD in general so if you miss either Hail or Frost Cloud because boss are moving then your dps tanks super hard. In grind, they are good.
Wiz: going c3 also sacrifice 2 rank of offensive ability and you also have to pass on Linker. You basically take 3 ranks for 2 abilities: Quick Cast and Magic Missle. You can go Wiz 3 Linker but then you have to push Ele C3 back, also Wiz 3 Linker is horrendous on boss fight.
Chrono: Insanely long CD on most ability. Have to sacrifice 3 rank with no offensive ability for Pass. If you go Chrono 3 for pass, you will be useful in party but in solo you are pretty mediocre. You can use your big CD twice, then what? They go back to CD and you have nothing else to grind because of small offensive ability pool.
Feather foot: sustain dps is not great actually. Their drain costs crazy amount of SP, and recently got nerfed to only drain from certain type of mobs. Other ability has low scaling and decently long CD, One might take it for the healing capability.

Overall, wiz combination is interesting but not as well rounded as people mention. In my opinion, Cleric beats it by far in term of combination capability. But well, Cleric beats every thing so…

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#51

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#52

It is 2 faces of the problem. You were presenting all the pros so it is fair for me to present all the cons in the argument. I didn’t say you were only represent the good side to make the class look OP, did I?

And my main point thru out is many Wiz’s combination while interesting requires heavy investment into 1 class, resulting on having glaring weakness and less well rounded. Certain path like Wiz 3 Ele 3 will have definite advantage making it the go-to choice. Also to present my belief that Cleric, not wiz, hold the tittle for most versatile and possible build.

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#53

Last I check no Priest goes only C1…

Actually, outside of Paladin C1->Monk I don’t remember any build where Cleric take multiple C1 classes.

Also, having weakness is not a bad thing. If a class can do everything then why would other class need to exist?

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#54

Only thing bugging me right now is Wiz C2 and Psykino -_-.
There’s no point to switching off at Wiz C2, which contrasts every other class which has Swordsman C2 builds, Archer C2 builds and Cleric C2 builds.

Psykino is donkey nuts right now.

#55

Does surespell currently retain the psychic pressure channeling stance when receiving damage?

#56

Yes, but

  1. Psychic pressure for some reason sometimes doesn’t break on some attacks even WITHOUT surespell

  2. Many attacks in this game have minor knockback/flinch properties. Surespell does nothing against these, so if there is even a minor amount of kickback the attack ends. Many enemies are able to break through regardless because of this. Hell there is a 96 quest boss whose actual level is 102 or 103 IIRC, where every hit he does is CC and he attacks without pause. Regardless of surespell a Psykino can only get in about 2-3 Psychic pressure hits before they have to run around. Meaning 3 hits every 30s on a boss lol, with just Earthquake and Energy bolt to assist you (Lethargy attribute is broken). Have fun!.

Even still would you Wiz 2 - Linker? You don’t really gain anything from it. Wiz C2 lacks a “Restrain”,Swiftstep 25% crit rate, 10 heal squares + More safety zone + Cure has amazing scaling, level of “take me”. So you either go to C3 or you ignore it completely. This is contrary to say Pyro C1, C2 and C3 which are all valid areas to break off to another class. Thauma as well. Even Ele while not being particularly strong, Breaking off at C2 is still valid for those going Necro or Alch.

Energy bolt scales poorly which leads most to just using it to tap out level 1’s.
Earthquake also scales poorly. Both spells want you to combo with Sleep/Lethargy (flying immune). Early Wiz is just weak. Cure + Heal goes through C1 like butter for clerics, Oblique shot and multi-shot cause higher dps early game as well, Swordsman has 3k hp. All of Wiz’s shortcomings are basically being resolved in Wiz C3, Pyro C1 and Cyro C2. Wiz C1 and C2 aren’t good and never have been good. The real benefit of Wiz C1 being Sleep as a CC skill, everything else about the class is frankly mediocre.

Going to Psykino C2, Magnetic Force does less damage then a lvl 5 Lethargy’d earthquake for reasons unknown given its a rank 4 ability, presuming it works because it can be resisted and sometimes pulls without doing damage anyways (wtf?). It has a smaller aoe ratio as well and exactly 2.2x the cooldown, cooldowns even worse if you attribute it for a 25% stun chance (46s). Something is very wrong there. Granted Psykino is Attack + Support, too bad its support functions are weak.
Cyro C2 is a tad better now, and you can still justify it when you jump off at Ele for the freezing-electricity damage attribute.

The Wiz class in general isn’t bad at all, actually quite strong in many aspects. Good support options, good damage options, just two stinkers, and I don’t mean its all perfectly balanced but everything outside of those two, contributes at least a respectable portion.

#57

As a matter of fact Swordsman is the worst base class on it’s own, Restrain is terrible as so is Pommel Beat and Double Slash compared to other skills on those ranks meaning that you don’t get anything besides longer buffs out of C2 or C3 at the end of the deal when you get down to it.

Honestly going from Rank1 to 2 and from 2 to 3 is so fast that complaining about WizardC2 is a bit pointless if you ask me.
WizardC3 gets you Quick Cast, by far one of the best skills in the game after it’s duration buff and if you save 10 skill points for when you enter WizardC3 (which is easy due to how easy and fast you get to Rank3) you can get Magic Missile Lv5 (Which also got a pretty good buff compared to ICBT) and Quick Cast Lv5 right off the bat, proper silver management will probably be able to net you some if not all the levels of Quick Cast’s atribute with ease too.

Honestly the only class that needs bug fixes is Psychokino, a good number of the R7 classes could also use some healp really, namely Warlock although it could be as simple as making Mastema a multi-hit (2-3 instead of one) considering it’s short range, giving Evil Sacrifice an atribute to make it’s cast shorter and have Pole fo Agony tick faster because it’s not great.

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#58

I look at each circle as its own thing

C1- Wiz has a lot of Sustained DPS at that time via the lethargy attribute (broken) but otherwise without a long lasting enemy for that (bosses) wiz just has a lot of down-time on relevant damage, and its not the best at bossing either since the other classes will burn down their bosses at those ranks with their SP pool. Sleep is powerful and sleep will be valuable for all wizard ranks down the line (pyro, Cryo). Obviously you’ll break from it just fine because its the base lol.

C2 - Its the exact same wiz but with Surespell, sure spell does nothing against knockbacks so it only really assists Energy bolt (lol) and Psychic Pressure, until knockback attacks become frequent (which is about right in the 60 lvl range). The important of this rank is whether or not it is worthwhile to take this rank at all. Not about how easy it is to move past it just because its that early in the game. Will you go Wiz C2 - Psykino or Wiz C2 - Linker? After testing surespell theres no reason to take it with Psykino, because spells still get frequenly interrupted as a result of any form of CC, which some mobs frequently put out as level increases. There’s not justification to take this rank other then it being forced for Wiz C3, which is the qualm. The reality that if you are not explicitly in Wiz C2, this is a filler rank of no value to any other class and it’s not even close to good for the time that it’s relevent before Wiz C3.

C3- Used to be kind of crappy on its own but was good for its synergy with other Classes. Now its good on its own and has good synergy with other classes.

Swordsman
Rank 1- Easy rank, can basically face tank all the bosses and just smash through with Thrust or AA’s. Pain barrier isn’t bad at all either, doesn’t have down-time unlike Wizard or INT clerics, but it lacks an INT clerics burst. Obviously you’ll break from it for other classes just fine…its the base lol.

Rank 2- Starting to fall off, but restrain can serve as minor damage control outside of bosses. The skill is at least relevent through various ranks, and because of this you may justify circle 2 to go for it. Some go Swordsman C2- Barb just fine.

Rank 3 - Alright it’s weaker then Cleric C3, Archer C3 and Wizard C3. Something is off here and I won’t dispute it either.

Wizard’s first 2 ranks are weaker, C3 Swordsman is weaker then C3 Wizard.
The main problem isn’t their strength to each other (although its worth noting) but the value of each Rank to the next rank. Will you take X before moving onto Y and then Z?

Will Swordsman C2 builds be taken as starting points to others? Yeah? Is it efficient? Possible not but how great is the loss of efficiency? Not enough to cry about.
Will Wizard C2 builds be taken? Nope? Is it efficient? Not at all. How great is the loss of efficiency? Thousands of damage from Pyro, Hundreds of damage lost from not taking Cyro + additional CC, all so energy-bolt wont get interrupted lol. How does it link to other jobs? Its actually almost irrelevant for Psychokino, and Linker doesn’t need sure spell either. So it’s basically the “forgotten” rank, there isn’t value within it. If it wasn’t required for Wizard C3, nobody would ever knowingly touch it. You could just as well move Surespell then as a result to C3 for all the relevancy C2 wizard has, which is understandably a problem. Swordsman has the other issue where C2 is stlll desired but C3 isn’t. Even still Swordsman C3 still plays better with other classes (and its own rank) than Wizard 2 does. 40% stun rate, Pain Barrier. There are still things in this rank that will carry on to your other ranks. In Wiz C2 all you really have is sleep ATM because surespell isn’t that reliable in the games current trend of throwing pushback/flinches every 3s at you. All you need is Wiz C1 for sleep so what does Wiz C2 add with any impact? Nothing.

PYro will fall off too but Pyro falls off much slower and it kicks ass while it is relevant.

#59

Those are very true points, but a Swordsman picking SwordsmanC2 intead of Highlander or Peltasta is objectively worse, Highlander gets you at worst the ‘‘Two-handed sword mastery: critical attack’’ which will always be good as far as you use two handed swords, much like say, Barbarians.
Peltasta also offers a taunt and an absurd boost to utility and durability via Swash Buckling and it’s block atributes.
Restrain’s 40% chance of getting a stun out of auto attack is easily ignored when you can get skills with higuer chances of stuning and more skills to just push back your enemies. Restrain is simply not good enough to even be considered a CC option adn Pain Barrier is a thing since C1 and you use it very rarely to begin with.

Yes, Wizard C2 really doesn’t offer anything to the R3 classes, which may be considered a problem to a degree but at the same time it open the posibility for WizardC3 which is pretty good as we know so I honestly don’t know what to say, I feel like it balances out at the end of things.

#60

Swordsman taking c2 is a huge mistake. It offers very little and taking peltasta for any non-two hander class, and highlander for any two-hander class is just … the only choice. There’s no reason to not to. ( I’ve made swordsman c2 and swordsman c3 builds, they’re a huge mistake ). Taunt is incredibly useful and if you’re not already limited by using a two hander - not having it basically makes you lose a defining role as a swordsman in a party.

Any other class can go c2 or c3 and there are good reasons to. Archer c2/c3 for kneeling shot / multishot+( with casting speed attribute) / swift step attribute, wiz c3 for quick cast / sure spell / sleep+, cleric c2/c3 for 11/16 heal tiles / safety zone+ / cure+ / divine might. These are good class decisions to make and people do them and do well. A swordsman c2/c3 is the path of regret.

On swordsman it’s just a huge mistake to go c2 or c3. You’re missing out on too much and gaining little in return. Restrain doesn’t actually stun at a high rate in practice. I don’t know why, but it’s not as good as it should be. Pommel beat is an awful skill, and not worth using. Double Slash is only decent, but when you consider you could’ve gone highlander 2 at that point and had access to cross cut/skyliner, it’s not worthwhile at all. More points in bash/thrust don’t really matter. The biggest gain is gung ho (+15 atk per rank) and concentrate (+8/7 hits per rank), which are definitely not worth taking the ranks for.

Skipping peltasta in your swordsman build to take swordsman c2 is probably the worst decision you could make.

#61

While I don’t want to get entirely caught up on Swordsman in exchange for my Wizard C2 rants.

Peltasta’s value diminishes if you have someone else capable of outputting higher Swashbuckling or mob quantities that can be handled by only one application of rank 5 Swash bucking.

In the case of a 5 man party for example
2 Swordsman, A cleric, An archer, a Wizard.
Peltastas main draw is swashbuckling, it can become redundant when another Peltasta is handling it (which is an issue I have run into in ICBT2).
The main draw for Swashbuckling depends on how many Swordsman you have in your party. This is an issue many support abilities have where multiple people taking the same skill does not provide significantly greater results.

Specifically for these situations Swordsman C2 and Highlander make better picks.
If you are the one pulling mobs then by all means Peltasta contributes greatly both for solo play in later classes and in a party. However once you have multiple people with Peltasta paths, the significance starts to drop.

Likewise if a Linker Shares your restrain, another Swordsman with Restrain starts to have redundancies.

With possible party compositions Swordsman C2 and Highlander C1 are still notable choices, for their higher DPS and no need of Swashbuckling if its already being provided.
Restrain also benefits parties when it can be shared by a Linker since you now have 5 people with a 40% stun rate,

These sort of benefits can’t be made however for Wizard C2. It doesn’t have a niche. Surespell is irrelevant given you need a cast bar before it really matters. many wizard skills themselves do not have cast bars. Finally Surespell doesn’t stop what ends up as the primary interruption from level 60 onwards enemies knocking you back, enemies knocking you down, launching you in the air, sleeping you, stunning you. Knockback effects are especially prominent as while they don’t do any lasting disable if implemented during a skills animation that skill can end up going on cooldown for nothing. Surespell doesn’t stop this. It’s a very niche buff that has very practical relevance to Psykino or Linker.

Psykino C2 runs into a similar issue of “Wtf am I doing at this rank?” Unlike say Ele C2, or Pyro 2, or even Cyro 2, you’re not really setting yourself up with additional power in potent skills or utility in cyros case.
While Psychic pressure is undoubtably strong, There isn’t an offensive skill in that line with less then 30s of cooldown, that’s not a big deal except Psychic Pressure is so easily interruptible its often justified with
a) Surespell (which runs into the CC issue above, incredibly frequently, more so then my Pyro 2, Ele ever did)
b) Sleep (level 4/5 is sufficient)
c) The stun attribute, which puts it to 39s, meaning its dps potential is being curbed for dps reliability as the only sufficient mobbing attack this makes psykino basically a 1 trick pony that kills basically every 40s, relying on its previous classes for relevancy, which can only be Cyro, Pyro and Wizard 2. This reliance will begin at Rank 3 and last to rank 5 if you go to C3.

This obviously makes you go “wait a second” when you look at Psychokino. At rank 4, you’re dependent on Rank 2 abilities (level 10 Energy bolt, lvl 0-10 Earthquake, lvl 5 Fireball, lvl 5 Flameground, lvl 5 Ice pike, level 5 Energy bolt, level 5 Ice wall).
Then again into C3.
If you pick Linker you are in the same boat.
Basically Wizard C2 isn’t good for anybody and its the base flipping class.
Linkers don’t like it either. Tl;dr. Wiz C2 sucks, Psykino C2-3 sucks (C1 isn’t that great either especially with the icewall nerf, but Rank 3 isn’t hard enough that you notice).

Swordsman C2-C3 are niche, but both ranks still do something for a particular situation (I’ve got another swashbuckler or hell a swash buckler and a QS) while bringing a little utility that won’t fade out, when their damage eventually does (Restrain). That they do this can justify their investment for a small number of players for either rank. You can’t really justify wiz C2, because it doesn’t add anything, it doesn’t do anything unless you’re aiming for a rank 10 sleep, because the way Energy bolt is handled, Past level 5 is mostly a waste of skill points. Runic Shield falls fast, Lethargy shouldn’t go past 1. Earthquake scales poorly and at C2 its going to disappear from relevancy even faster. Sure Swordsman C3 can use more oomph, but double swordsman comps don’t really require multiple sources of swashbuckling and damage is always desirable leaving C2 Swordsman and Higher C1 if you’re not going that route. If you’re going to go Barbarian then or Hoplite, for your C3 then, might as well pick up restrain because Carter Stroke and Wagon wheel are going to fall off either way at the end of the day. The only “lasting” abilities you’re going to pick up in Rank 1 -Rank 2 are basically Guardian, Swashbuckling, Restrain, Gung Ho, Cross guard (2h only) and Pain barrier (niche). C3 swordsman is harder to justify because what will you go for, Rodelro? That is a lot of CC but C3 Swordsman into Rodelro will probably bore you to quitting the game. C3 Swordsman doesn’t flow with cataphract. So yeah an adjustment has to be made there as well, but as far as wizards go. C2 wizard blows.

#62
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