Tree of Savior Forum

Class resets, leveling up and potential problems with the game design

General Discussion
#61

Show me where a STR INT Cleric is an optimal character, because it’s not. I guarantee you can make a more effective character with one or the other. You’ll be just mediocre with both.

Try to play devil’s advocate all you want, there’s no optimal character that has invested status points in more than 3 different status. You’re precisely right in that no one is making a STR CON Wizard. That’s my point. Why would anyone click that first Status point for a Wizard, it does not even need to be there. Change the Wizard’s Status window to only show INT CON SPR as leveling options and no one would see any difference (except the perception that they now have less choice, but we all know that STR and DEX wasn’t a good choice for a Wizard in the first place!)

And while I’ve personally been a huge fan of Swordmages, Dark Knights, Magus, etc. (I loved my Dark Templar in Age of Conan), TOS does not have any. That’s a moot argument.

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#62

This is what you say. Krivis Monk (STR/INT) are not medicore :/.

So what is the problem ? You think it’s better if all characters need to put points into 5 stats ?

No one ? Someone tested it with Thaumaturge and arde dagger but it doesn’t work. It could work with another dagger. The problem is not the stats system but the ratio on skills.

Because ToS is a game of theorycraft and by what you say I can say you know nothing from this game.

ToS is ToS.

#63

It’s not about putting points into 5 stats. My intention is that for every character you make, every status should be a viable option for making an effective character. It’s a waste to have a button there if you would never have a reason to press it.

Could we then say that by design, IMC did not intend for any Wizard to invest in STR? Why it is then an option for Wizards to ever put points in STR? Go ahead and say that it’s to allow theorycrafters to waste their time. I think that this could have been designed differently that it would not make a crappy character but one that is effective in a different way.

Go back to my post where I suggested replacing STR CON DEX INT SPR with Power, HP/Defense, Critical/SpellPen, SP/Resistance, Cooldown Reduction. On any class, all 5 of these options are valid choices. If you want a powerful tanky character, you can put all your points in Power, HP, Crit; but you’re going to be waiting a long time on cooldowns. If you want to be a glass cannon, you can swap out that HP for Cooldowns instead.

You’re latching on to where I describe a problem, which you acknowledge that it exists by stating that STR wizard does not work; and you’re ignoring a hypothetical suggestion for a solution, which I don’t think anyone would complain about having more choice in character advancement.

#64

ToS should have done what Pillars of Eternity did…

You can read more about it here (scroll to pg 10 for the reasoning behind PoE’s design)

Not gonna do a tldr, since most of the explanations are in point forms…

#65

Only SPR is useless for every character. Or INT on Swordman/Archer. You have to remember we don’t know what are R8-10.

I said someone tried to put STR on his Wizard, it didn’t work well because Arde Dagger was a bad choice. It can work with Thaumaturge and Linker. And theorycraft is not a waste of time if you can reset your class. Guess what is the title of this topic :wink:.

If IMC do this they will need to remake the whole game -_-"…

??? Where did I say that ? I said a guy failed his build just because he was too blind to see his arde dagger was stupid for his STR build. STR Wiz works. It’s not the best way to build a Wiz but you can do it.

A solution to make this game another game, so yes it’s better to ignore your hypothetical suggestion.

#66

I think it would be cool if there was more viable stat builds, but it doesnt mean this makes the stat system pointless.

For example there was someone asking for stat build advice yesterday and there was 4 or 5 people giving different stat builds just for that one class he asked about. You can build your character with more con if you want to do better in pvp too.

The more choice you have the better, i like this way much better than the system other games have where it is chosen for you.

Maybe in the future more items will be released to open up more stat build possibilities. Instead of trying to rework the whole stat system or abilities, items with interesting effects can make other stat builds viable.

#67

Class reset scroll is ridicilous. that’s like going into wow, got a 100 level mage, pop scroll now a 100 level rogue

no ty

#68

Where did you see this suggestion o_o ?

#69

If there’s gonna be one, I’m pretty sure you can’t change your initial class.

#70

There has never been a game where you can change your starting class. Why would you think this game would do that?

#71

“Didn’t read” people and they are allowed to vote :cry:.

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#72

You pointed out why the scaling is pointless but haven’t internalized it.

Average weapon damage has gone from basically 2/3 at level 1 weapons to 500 at level 280 2h Lolopanther weapons.

While enemy health has gone from like 50 to 80k/130k @ 280, ignoring Earth Tower.

Mob health increases outpace the increase of our weapons.
% Scaling isn’t a solution you would have to continually re-adjust old moves whenever you create new content to make them relevant later as even greater Health tiers come out. That’s not practical.

#73

Thank you for your words! I love when people understand that their opinion are their opinion. Thanks for sharing yours!

I will use this space to share mine:

I think the core of this game is the tons of class builds you can make mixed with the stats. It takes a bunch of hours to get to some higher levels (ranks). And if you mess something you will get to reroll right?

This frustate people. Some people gets more frustated and some don’t even care at all. They have their reasons, time maybe? It doesn’t matter.

What really matters is that EVERYONE needs to be happy. Those who like to reroll, they need to be able to do it! Those who doesn’t like to reroll they need to have a way to get into their objective, fixing their mistakes, in a confortable way.

We know that if we search a LOT! And learn a LOT takes time. But is rewardfull! We can do wonderfull things searching. But we need to understand that sometimes this might get wrong even doing HUGE researches.

What IMC could do: When you hit a certain class and you don’t want it anymore cus you made a mistake or something like that… and AH! this mistakes can’t be fixed by using skill reset potion… You should be able to RESET the ENTIRE character TP-FREELY maybe some silvers based on your current level. So an example:
A level 220 character have to pay around 1kk silver(Which is a reasonable money but quite easy to get) to reset to level 1!

You stay with equipments, itens, everything! And now you will get a EXP bonus. Based on your level. Like: 500% more exp from your level 1 till you hit your reset level, 220.

Ofc if you reset at lower levels, lets say at level 43, you will have to pay a little bit less… around 100k silver? Or something around it. And you wont receive 500% exp but… 100%, maybe?

I’m not sure about the numbers, but I think you got the point.

So instead of rerolling a character, you can keep your character and reroll it in a fastest way and fairly way. AND AH! Important thing. Every time you reroll… the money you paid to reroll will increase!

The level 220 paid around 1kk, so the second time will be 1,5kk and so on…

So I think with the right numbers in this idea, things would get BALANCED. And people would not get istant reset. Cus this is the core of the game. If you used your time and did something wrong, you will have to fix it! And depending on the mess you did, you will have to use a bunch of time to fix it too right?

But this can’t be a PAIN… Not a total pain at least. But need to be painfull to reroll a character.

Thats it! I just hope everyone gets happy and have fun with the game. And that its not TP involved, or at least, not too much.

2 Likes
#74

The biggest schtick to mention is that guides are grossly limited to theorycraft builds (by a margin not big enough to justify its importance when looking at what could be done in the game), made by what works for that one particular build. This gives someone an idea, but not a long term goal, as to what they personally would want from their class. So for the time being, while I truly appreciate and even envy the effort someone places into their guides, they are best used as helpful references, rather than it being “This is how you should build”.

But this is just me telling someone to fall victim to what leads many down the road of “Should I remake”, doesn’t it? I don’t think this can be helped. Lest I remind everyone that this game has only just come out. A game, new to us with its own reformulated schtick, with a 280 cap, should not be taken so lightly. I already plan to go the route of the Dopple, capping Barbarian at C3 before making a clean transition into… well… what looks to be like Barbarian on roids.

I don’t expect to be happy with myself, or my progress, by the time I reach that point where anyone else would finally realize whether or not they’ve messed up. Hell, this is even partly made with deliberate ignorance, spite of those that claim the Swordsman branches to be a tank dependent class, just to prove useful. But, I plan to be happy with the fact that I saw it through to my own consequences, and will make it work regardless.

Do I think we need the opportunity to class reset? Yes, but mostly no. No, because, well… my reason above. Yes, because of the same reason. I mean come on guys, the balance of the classes feels like crap right now, and I can’t see that being justified outside of them trying to levy enough importance into the usual roles of “Tank, Healer, DPS” that MMO’s pride themselves in keeping true to. But nothing makes sense about someone who will swing at their large two handed sword with all their might at their target, doing less damage than a hit with an arrow.

I feel like we need to look at the current state of the classes first, before we look at whether or not it’d be wise to brandish a torch to leave our past choices in the dust.

#75

Same reason anyone would think that this game would let you reset any classes. Resetting a wiz3/ele3 to chrono/linker, or priest/pardoner to krivis/sadhu is just as drastic as switching from dragoon to musketeer. It’s still a complete change in role, purpose and playstyle.

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#76

% Scaling is much better than the current scaling format which is flat damage for most skills. Class circles stop at circle 3, with skills max out at level 15. As more contents get release our skill levels still remain the same, with their flat damage. The only thing that changes is the weapons and our stats.

If skills remain as a flat damage the damage increase will definitely not match up with the monster levels and hp. Hence it will be really good to tweak the skill damage now before new content is released.

Take a look at the new ktos changes to Priest’s blessing. Previously it falls off due to having only +40 flat damage. Now it adds in % scaling off stats it has potential to remain viable even when content pushes past 280.

This is a step in the right direction which IMC took to address balancing, hope they keep it up.

#77

Different role, playstyle, and purpose yes I know.

What I meant was the overall concept.

Sure you can go from dps to support with this kind of change, but other games have the exact same things with theirs.

They may have a generic Warrior that can branch into tank or dps, yet they are still the front line person. An archer is a back line person.

For example, in dragon nest you can build a cleric to a paladin (tank) or a priest (healer). Both of which can be further seperated with a bigger focus onto dps, yet that game has a class reset.

A cleric in DN is still a defensive support.

So, your point?

#78

Priests Blessing still decreases in value :pensive:

Say you go 15 Blessing and have 200 SPR.
This is 339 from blessing.
Significant? Sure but the value of it has changed notably still
Blessing is more effective back when you’re fighting lower health tier enemies, you’re still going to see that it has less relative effect on higher tier enemies. When there is another health tier it will diminish further.

It seems you’re simply oblivious to this. Scaling doesn’t mean you don’t still end up in relative irrelevancy.

Hell, Summon Familiar scales 60% with Int on top of regular int’s contribution. Its still Going to lack in relative efficiency compared to say +10 Snipe at rank 8. Hypothetically it’ll eventually do more damage, but then there will be new skills to compete with at rank 8 that have higher base damage as well. Such is the way of how this game goes.
Cure gained +1 per int on top of regular magic attack (which int also contributes to).

Bash is 100% of your physical power.
But 100% of your physical power is no longer sufficient by itself at level 280. Other skills are 100% but they have higher bases let alone past that.
200%, as well falls into the same problem, the higher you progress the higher the health tiers raise the less effective previous scalings are.
Blessing was buffed, but it’s still losing efficiency relative to mobs at higher health tiers compared to the ones at rank 4 from the moment you max it.

If you don’t get that I don’t know how you can even talk balance.
Earthquake with Lethargy is 200% of your magical power
But 200 of your magical power is no longer sufficient by itself at higher levels.
Meteor is 400% of your magical power, but 400% by it- im like a broken record.
The long and short is that the base damage matters a lot in keeping up with higher health enemies and more powerful skills, which simply a % modifier doesn’t do. All a % modifier by itself says is That the skill retains relevancy for however long the % modifier is relevant to mobs within X health bracket because monster health outpaces physical/magical power growth. Just as the skill damage is valuable only until your mobs health outpaces the worth of the skill damage.

To change this entirely you have to well change the class system itself to force players into certain routes so you can actually plan out their final damage output. Which you can’t because R8 and R9 are not yet released, but are on their way.

#79

Actually another thing I just thought of is the reset being sold in the item mall could turn into a money sink.

Imagine you choose this build to get you from 1-100, then you pay to switch your build for something that’s better for 100-180ish, then you pay again to switch your build for something that’s 180-230, then again 230-280

and so on and so on.

It’s just an example but if this game never actually received proper scaling and balancing and simply tosses reset items in the item mall that may actually be a problem.

Again, just speculation, feel free to disagree.

#80

Well, whoever thought of class resets being free aren’t very bright.

It should have been a given that this would cost real money.

Nonetheless, its a good point to bring up.