Tree of Savior Forum

Class resets, leveling up and potential problems with the game design

General Discussion
#81

My point is the apparent double standard you’re sporting. Later classes have overall concepts of their own, sometimes completely different from base classes. So why is the base class concept worth preserving while the later ones aren’t?

You talk about how a cleric in DN is still a defensive support no matter what line it goes down, well that’s not the case here. A thaumaturge is strictly a support role while wizard is offensive. A monk is a melee damage dealer while cleric is magic based support. If you want to talk about overall concepts then it makes even more sense to ignore the base classes as things like squire has a more similar overall concept to pardoner or alchemist than anything in the sword tree.

#82

Leaf bug has 26 health.
At 280 you have mobs with 130k
There’s a
532961%
increase in mob health, excusing earth tower which has even higher, and it’s not linear. Mob health spikes at different areas. That gap is going to get wider far faster than the gap between weapons, hell you gain 1 phys/int per level.
1 phys/int at level 1 vs 280 at level 280…
27900% Increase. A bit of an exaggeration because the flat reality is you gained 1 damage per level.

Old Gladius has an average damage of 4.5 (level 1 weapon)
Lolopanther 2h Sword has an average damage of 500.5
11022% increase and I’m doing this in favor of weapons by comparing a 1h to a 2h for maximum benefit.

Yet some of you want flipping Bash to be damage relevent at R7 and beyond. Multi-shots already beginning to wane at 1600%. While not crapping all over the balance of non-linear mob health, while gaining more powerful skills in your arsenal from that R1-R7 and beyond journey.
Because “Scaling!” is the answer.
Flipping delusional. The game’s set-up isn’t made to have all these skills remain potent indefinitely.

#83

Hmm, thats true.

In that case, for the afk classes, I believe the real problem with them is that IMC decided to make them classes instead of professions, but thats a different topic, so I have nothing to say there.

The only real argument I can give you for the thaum/wiz relation is that thaum is offensive support which wiz has extremely little characteristics of, but wiz still has it.

Well, as well as my overall view that class advancements are more of an extension to the base.

Monk is well need some thought

The best comparison I can give to Monk is Assasin in DN (why DN? Because the other games i mentioned with this reset ability doesnt have something like monk)

Anyways. Monk is a physcial dps in here and is also sub support.

Assassin is a physical damage dealer in DN. One of the branches it has is Light Bringer. That is a support/healer.

#84

It’s not that I want Bash to compare to a R7 ability. I want Bash Lv5 to compare to other R1 abilities and I want Bash Lv15 to compare to other R3 abilities at Lv5.

How many archers are there that are not taking Musketeer C1 or Cannoneer C1? Both of those classes are incredibly powerful and the other existing Archer jobs do not match their damage potential.

What I want to see is either damage scaling or an exponential growth on existing abilities. Without me looking up the real existing numbers, let’s just use Bash as an example:

Circle 1
Lv1 50 damage
Lv2 70 damage
Lv3 90 damage
Lv4 110 damage
Lv5 130 damage

Circle 2
Lv6 160 damage
Lv7 190 damage
Lv8 220 damage
Lv9 250 damage
Lv10 280 damage

Circle 3
Lv11 320 damage
Lv12 360 damage
Lv13 400 damage
Lv14 440 damage
Lv15 480 damage

It’s rather linear once you hit each circle (+20/Lv, +30/Lv and +40/Lv respectively), but this should give you an idea of what I think is reasonable growth as we expect power to increase with each rank.

All I am implying is that a Swordman C3 should be at least as strong as another Rank 3 Circle 1 class.

Truthfully, Swordsman C3 abilities at Lv15 should be slightly stronger than the abilities at Lv5 from a R3 C1 class because this character now has less abilities in his arsenal. That character that went Swordsman C2 has a Lv10 Bash to help him level, plus new abilities from that R3 C1.

Further, if they were to implement damage scaling, the ratio of scaling on lower rank abilities should be lower. Something like Bash 100 + (1.2 * Physical Attack) where Serpentine should be something like 300 + (1.8 * Physical Attack). Higher scaling on higher Rank abilities.

I absolutely approve of having lower rank abilities losing effectiveness as this prevents ability bloat. I really don’t want to have more than a dozen abilities on my hot bar.

#85

Hmm I think you got me wrong. I didn’t say the current % scaling is optimal, obviously a lot of % are too low compared to others. But % scaling still does relatively well vs a flat damage scaling when higher levels are released.

Eg. Smite @ level 15 gets at +1771 flat in addition to atk power.

The +1771 is going to follow the character all the way to 280+ levels. It doesn’t change at all even when class 8,9,10 are released. When monsters hp increased till 200k+ per monsters, the 1771 becomes negligible.

The solution is to convert it to its equivalent in % format. If IMC wants the skill to have a total attack power of 2200 at 175 level (class 6 for paladin3) and with normal weapons at 200 damage and str around 200. It will make it around 500% weapon damage at lvl15. This scales with weapon and stats as weapon quality will improve with levels.

% scales much better with levels… with % scaling, smite with a 100/100 atk power/str weapon will deal 1000 damage, with a 400 atk power/400str weapon it will increased to 4000 damage… instead of 1771+200 or 1771+800.

#86

Well that’s kind of an awkward connection to make, but okay.

Personally I think that that particular line of thinking, which I’m assuming a lot of pro-reset people share is a bit reductionist. The game’s main advertising focus has always been having >80 classes. The official survey had over half the responses say the diverse class system was their favourite thing in the game. But all the reset talk mentions classes as if they’re just skill trees, which diminishes their significance. I think it’s the wrong way to look at it. It’s taking away the most unique thing about the game and it’s main hook.

Basically what I’m saying is I like any class in the game to have permanence for the same reason you like the base classes to have it.

1 Like
#87

I’m not really a pro-reset person. I can understand where both sides are coming from. I personally would prefer a system similar to PSO2, but I suppose it does fall under pro-reset.

The no reset is fine for the game currently, but since people are complaining it does mean that this diverse class system isn’t working as intended. Of course, that means there is still a lot of balancing and synergy they need to correct.

A lot if people usually want the best if the best for what they are going for, and this game is still fairly new. There is a lot to go through in the game currently and not much is known yet about class synergy and effectiveness. I believe the real problem is that there is too much content to work with (in terms of class and stuff not gameplay) which is why people want to reset. I sure do not want to spend a week+ (For each try) just to get back to where I was just to try out a class combo that may not work especially since I have other things to do in life.

The way I see it is that, if there were less classes, then there would be less backlash.

It just means IMC needs to rethink about how they are going with planning their classes.

I won’t argue that the pro people make it look like simply skill trees, but that really is the core of these classes. For me, it’s hard to see these as their own seperate classes because they look like an improvement to the base. It would have been better if they gave all the classes to choose at the start.

Almost all of the forum that consist of class talk usually pertains to MAX DEEPEESS, or what the heck does this class even do. Or build my class!! Which, sadly, is saying that people are lazy.

Though, tbh, I don’t really like this game.

#88

The problem is that people are trying to have a build that can do all. Well, you can’t have that. Find people, make connections, and learn to build synergy. There are some classes that flat out don’t well together, but that is how diversity works.

#89

in another words run meta baby… good thinking.

#90

Not sure what you’re smoking, but an obvious attempt to twist the post the wrong way.

#91

The problem here is that their reasoning for not having a class reset from the get-go is already a flawed core design trait.

Saying that any decision is being deliberated or discussed because Tree of Savior is based on it’s unique class system and not wanting to compromise it is kind of ridiculous because it’s really not unique, compared to any other MMO that would allow such resets.

Every MMO has a diverse range of classes, some more or less than others. The only difference is the totem pole approach IMC took with TOS, it’s like the equivelant of leveling a class in another game to 20, then swapping classes to level to player level 40 (that new class is class level 1) and learning the skills you learn from 1-20 from the new class in the 20-40 range.

This doesn’t present any kind of daringly unique game design mechanic that should immune to change, because right now for very many good reasons argued already by people intelligent enough to have the foresight to see past their nose, any form of logic that protects the current class system is flawed, because the class system itself just doesn’t work for long term players.

It isn’t built around long term retention and the numbers already show that this game is lacking elements necessary for that retention. Long term retention design would entail that we do have a way to switch roles at the very least occasionally or through the item shop.

Saying that there won’t be class resets “cuz special class system” is essentially defending an already deeply flawed fundamental design trait, which is the class system itself, hence it isn’t worth defending.

The only circumstance in which this class system is 100% fair to everyone in all situations and would require no second thought is if every single possible circle combination were balanced and effective, but this is IMPOSSIBLE. There’s no such thing as perfect balance. Other games have been doing this dance in WAY more concentrated balancing environments, like LOL and WOW, and have never succeeded in being perfectly balanced.

#92

The issue with Tree of Savior is the advancement based class system. We can say ranks and circles all we want but when it comes down to it the character advances through classes several times throughout the game.

Games like Maplestory, Wonderking, La Tale, etc are all examples of this.

When using a system like this it’s no wonder early choices get knocked out later in the game. It’s progression. If all classes and all circles were balanced at end game you’d have over 30 keybindings and would never be able to rotate through all your skills. It’s that simple.

It happens in every game with a class system like this. It happened in Ragnarok with the rebirth system. In happened in Maplestory. It happened, always.

It’s clear from the beginning that pyromancer was not meant to be a class that would be great at endgame. It’s scaling is just not there.

The problem is the utility some classes bring. Utility is always there and never gets outscored by content. A cryomancer will always be able to freeze things unless new content shows mobs with status resistance. A chronomancer will always provide +15 movement speed.

DPS based classes do not have this. But you guys are rewarded with better classes with even better DPS as you get deeper into the game.

To say that Tree of Savior needs all classes to be scaled and balanced is impossible. To say that the system is bad is saying that the system is flawed. But this is the basis of which Tree of Savior’s class system is built on.

We are at the mercy of which classes developers feel should be at the later ranks. But this is the same with all games which has these type of class system. If you don’t like it, it may be that ToS is not the game for you.

Games like WoW, Aion, GW, etc which are more modern based MMOs do not have advancement based class system. You character is one classes and learns a set number of skills so they control the amount of actions you can learn.

ToS is not that. The only way they can control your gameplay to make it balanced is by controlling the skills they want you to use at different stages of the game.

#93

Umm… so it’s linear under the disguise of ‘having choices’? lol this makes no sense to me. If the company wants you to use the skills they want me to use, then why include all these choices in the first place? May as well keep it linear like other MMOs at this point right?

These choices could add lots of flavor and variety to the game but they are just there to force you to discover the right choices based on what the company wants you to build? Am I’m reading you correctly?

#This is actually how I feel about that lol:

http://puu.sh/pg3IJ/07fa1e32e8.jpg

1 Like
#94

How is this any different from Ragnarok, Maplestory, La Tale, World of Warcraft, Aion, Guild Wars 2, etc?

Developers have always controlled your gameplay experience. With some games it’s not as obvious because the choices are more limited. Games with limitless options are different and developers obviously don’t want you to have 30+ skills keybound.

#95

We need a reset. Not everyone has the time to reroll a class, besides you need to taste your class at three stages of the game: early, mid and late. Then you can say “I like this path or I don’t like this path” . To be fair with everyone a class reset need a decent amount of delay after each use (at least a week or two).

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#96

Why we need class reset? Because the game is still too bugged, unbalanced and without enough information. A LOT of skills need more information, rebalance or even rework. Now lets take someone who have to work and pay the bills. How much time per day he/she can play? Maybe at most 2 hours? Now how much time (months) to get to R7. Then he/she make a build based in the today skills, take his/her time goes all way to R6~R7, skip some C2/C3 ranks because they are really bad or worthless ATM. Then one beatifull day they rework the classes to become better. Now what he/she does?
A) Pay to reset (a lot of others games give this option for free in major changes)
B) Start over again.
C) Given no reset option, just rage quit.

I’m not even talking about adding more classes (R7 or lesser) or the future rank 8, 9 and so on. So each new rank = delet char and start over again?

1 Like
#97

some people will say “just play a unplayable character” or “just start over its no time ,i can do it 24/7 as i don’t have work or life” but really when they do rework of some classes and don’t give a reset people will leave.

#98

but at this time this is how it is.buy choice or mistake.
like if you didn’t take peltasta as swordsman you doing it wrong.

#99

It’s extremely hard to balance games, not a single mmo has a good decent balance. WoW tried to balance its classes in wotlk and that ended up just giving everybody the same skill with a different name / animation. Which became a bore fest for many.

This game allows you to advance the way you want, but some people in my groups have just randomly selected all these different classes and end up doing absolute crap dmg later on, because they didn’t figure out before they started if that would actually work.

What if you for example pick all those rank 1 different class choices, sure your dmg will suck badly at the end. Because you do not have any 3rd level skills, fun at the start when you one hit everythign with all your skills, but when content gets harder its game over.

There is zero way to balance a game like this.

Ro also didn’t gave you much of a choice when it came to builds, you either moved this prebuild solution or this prebuild solution. If you didn’t your dmg output would be bad.

No matter if it gave you the idea that you had lots of choices you really didn’t have much at all.

And in RO there was zero to no balance to be found. The game was absolute terrible when it came to that.

If you don’t got the time or don’t want to spend the time on rerolling and figuring stuff out, then you should have picked a premade build from other people online. That’s what i did. Then after your first char is max level, you will know what is good and what is not. Never go in blind in a game it will backfire.

#100

I don’t really see a problem with 30 binds, that’s a pretty reasonable number for an endgame character in an MMO intent on having actual combat depth in a PvE setting.