(I’m going off topic here)
Wouldn’t it be cool if shinobi could clone the bulls? AHAHAHAAHAHAH!
I need to calm down.
I’ve been playing a shield matador with no fencer. Sword3-Pelt2-Doppel1-Shinobi-Matador3: http://tos-th.com/skill-simulator.html#1111339djjj.3f5f6a85.153a4a65.152555.55254411.11213f4f576175
The main reason I went for this build is because I wanted to play a matador that doesn’t need Dex for attack speed, since I have high ping.
Sword3 gives me:
-Filler damage with double slash that can also be used for clones
-Pain barrier with great uptime
-When I dont need guardian’s defense, I use gung ho (with full STR, my Gung ho is about +570patk)
Pelt2:
-2x defense with Guardian
-50% uptime on a block buff
-Umbo blow can be used with clones
-A taunt that is much better than Capote
Doppel1:
-Cyclone is AoE filler damage for when my Mata skills are on cd
-Deeds is +13% damage (compensates for the lack of the fencer pierce damage attribute, but unlike the fencer attribute, it still lets me use shield. The 9% extra damage taken is rather irrelevant thanks to Guardian)
-Mordschlag for damage with clones (5 overheat!)
Shinobi: Sort of compensates for the low damage against bosses that matador has. Since the build has 6 skills that can be copied and most have multiple overheat, it has enough skills for the entire duration of the clones. Biggest problem is that the clones aren’t very reliable against bosses that move around a lot or that have invincibility.
Matador3 is the “core” of the build.
In my opinion, having a good taunt is the key to making a good matador, you need to group up mobs to make good use of Corrida Finale and Faena. I have played Highlander3-Corsair3-Matador2 before, and I can say it sucks when compared to any other Matador that has at least Pelt1.
If you really want a Swordsman for farming in regular maps or HGs, I’d say Retiarius is far better than Matador.
blame reti for taking all the fame.
Well, with the Tree of Savior Evangelion Re:build whatever you all were building as Matador will change completely.
There are two possibilities here of what our future will be:
We will have Matador and Fencer without dagger classes (fifth base class thief case).
Fifth base class will have only Matador (fifth base class tank case).
First case would not change that much, we just won’t be able to use corsair and retiarius (to those who built fencer+reti).
Second case would be weird as most people here play Matador offensively (in a full DPS sense, not offtank).
I think it is more probable that Fencer and Matador stay together and Fencer 6 will be a reality.
However, there will be a universal rebalancing of the classes. But I have no idea what they are thinking for Rapier users. Ok, now we will do the same damage as everyone, but will the means change?
Will Rapier actually transfer to the tank base class, assuming the tank fifth tree is true?
Lemme hear what you have to say
WHINE FOR ME ZASSHU
I doubt both classes will be separated.
And Matador is not a defensive class, nothing on his kit goes this way. Yes, the class can provoke, but it is far away of a tanker class.
Both Fencer and Matador are more offensive, Fencer being a class with a lot of rapier skills and Matador being a class that provides critical through provocation (and attributes).
I’m waiting for more details, but it will be very exciting if we could finally have both classes together, at their best.
I believe both Fencer and Matador to be offtank, it is just that Fencer failed to tank so they decided to give tons of damage on circle3.
Matador on the other hand do it effectively. You could make now a full tank Matador ignoring most damage skills and it would work.
The thing you’re not paying attention is the magical fact that Magic will be blocked and dodged..
What that means? It means that there will be new mechanics around defensive classes that dodge and block. Shield classes kinda do that now, while Rapier classes don’t, they just time-defense and make big evasion steroids, and specifically to physical damage.
But, if the classes are to be remade and you do create a new rule for how magic damage work, then you could have an utility on what Fencer and Matador has to offer in terms of Tank, even if it is just to support another main Tank class you happen to choose.
And don’t forget that both classes can change a lot, with Fencer being the most probable candidate for an overhaul.
All I hear about this update is…
Summary
Fencer6
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Fencer has an attribute that increases damage in 15% if not using a shield. And even Epee Guard itself.
Matador, besides damage skills, has Ole (crit buff), Capote (aggro + crit resist reduction) and Backslide for evasion/positioning, better used to reduce Paso Doble cooldown than a reliable way of evasion. Capote + Ole + Muleta are amazing access to high crit ratio. 2 attributes that increase Rapier damage against monsters that you have the aggro. Can’t see those tanking capabilities. It has provocation only.
Yes, you can add Peltasta and ignore Fencer’s attribute + Epee Guard, and you will have a tanker with Rapier and Shield (and that would be nice, I’m willing to try). But what would make you a tanker will be Peltasta, because of defensive buffs and attributes, not Fencer and Matador.
Edit: even Evasion is a bad argument, cause both classes have nothing besides Back Slide. You will be better looking for evasion through equipment.
We have to wait and see, but I doubt that Fencer and Matador will drastically change to an offtank persona, it simply doesn’t look to be what they were designed for. Fencer always looked as as single-target damage dealer, while Matador looks like a provocateur, using that to “enrage” enemies, get their attention and put out a show. It is simply an amazing class to reach good crit rate.
I hope this update also give fencers the much needed Epee Garde duration buff
Very much agreed. Fencer’s epee garde is based on ToS2016 & is sorely outdated on the duration to the buff’s content itself.
Aside from that, I feel matador can’t stand on it’s own without fencer & they would have to be in the same tree after the change as matador is the lead up to the rapier-class.
Unless of course they toss us a bone & give us ANOTHER rapier class that’s equally an upgrade to fencer & an offensive tank class should there be a “tank” tree to which i highly doubt, hence I’m inclined to believe the upcoming class would be a thief tree.
Dual Rapier. Calling it now.
I agree that they don’t seem to be designed as offtank, but not because they lack tank aspects. It is because they don’t work effectively, specifically to the side of Fencer.
It is wrong to say that Fencer is the Pierce-Doppel as it is to say that Matador is the Evasion-Murmillo. Fencer and Matador have elements not present in shield classes as it have elements that are not present in 2h classes.
Also, they are not evasion tanks, nor block tanks, they are timed-block-dodge with after-defense damage. That is what make their base design as offtank. And such aspects can be used to change how things work.
Fencer is not as a doppel, cause doppel is more of a wide AoE class than Fencer, devs capitalized on Cyclone. Fencer got an AoE upgrade, but it is still far away of a true AoE class.
I never said that Matador is an “evasion-murmillo”, cause murmillo is a DPS class essentially, it happens to work better as a tanker because it has direct sinergy with Peltasta, besides his own attributes. Also, Matador has only one evasion skill, and no attributes, so far, related with evasion.
What I said is that Matador has his characteristic on giving you Critical Rate, even by directly increasing it (Ole), through counterattack (Muleta), and reducing enemies crit resist through provocation (Capote). All these together with Faena Crit rate attribute and class attributes that increase damage against provoked enemies.
Matador can work as a tanker if paired with Peltasta. In fact, when facing a mob, Swash Buckling would be great for increasing Ole effect, as Capote itself grab only 8 enemies. But the character will tank because of Peltasta, not because of Matador.
The sad part is that, if you add Fencer alongside Matador and Peltasta, you loose your defenses… Hope they change Fencer’s attributes, and Epee Guarde. This might not happen because it looks like a “take a risk” class: increase your damage output by sacrificing your defenses.
I did not attribute the sentence “Matador is an evasion murmillo” to you, what I did was to compare your view that the Rapier kit is DPS only to a hypothetical argument that they would be tank only. Both follows the same logical error.
First, the comparison I made with Doppel was with DPS role, not how the class do it. Of course the classes are different at how they do their damage and even at which part of the DPS role they play.
But again, saying that Fencer is at the same position as Doppel concerning the DPS factor alone is WRONG. Doppel has 0 buffs to defense stats (be it block, evasion or whatever reduce the damage) and Fencer and Matador HAVE skills that do this.
And you for some reason is using a very convenient definition for the skills for both classes.
Flanconnnade, Lunge, Esquive Toucher, Preparation, Muleta and Capote are NOT DPS skills. Are they tank skills? Or do they make the whole kit tank? NO. They make the kit offtank. Why? Because Doppel doesn’t have it, Dragoon doesn’t have it, Mounted classes doesn’t have it. And, adding to that, the fact that those skills + other DPS focused ones exist also make them distinct from whatever shield based you can think of.
And to be more detailed here concerning Matador, there are 3 pure direct DPS skills. While you have 3 that boost in some way defensive stats FIRST. You could say that Ole is pure DPS, and alone it is a fact. But you don’t use Ole alone, right? You need a provoke first. Is there any provoke skill that taunts without giving defensive stats? Maybe the passive from Swordsman.
But the real point is: this buff works similar to how buffing works with, as an example, Barbarian and Doppel works? No, right? Wasn’t it Doppel that reduced your defense a lot with both DoV and DPE?
And again, am I calling both Rapier classes tank? No. But I will not call them DPS either. The fact that you can make good damage out of whatever does not dictate the nature of its kit.
And more important, the fact that those defensive skills are ■■■■ also does not make those same defensive aspects desappear.
You can say that Fencer and Matador are ■■■■ tanks or ■■■■ Offtanks, but the truth is they ARE offtanks by design and such truth is evidence of the devs wanting to make a offtank class and this is proof that they could be better offtanks in the Re:Build, as it is also true that they could abandon completely this design and make them 100% DPS.
But abandoning such skills also proves my point as you can’t abandon something that doesn’t exist.
Don’t think we are playing the same game.
Besides all of this, we still need more information on what will happen with this new update. We will be better waiting a few days for more info.
Well, if your definition of a DPS skill is one that gives evasion and block besides damage, then we really have nothing more to discuss.
We can only agree that we disagree.
And yeah, I also agree that such discussion is pointless as the Devs will decide whatever the classes will be.
Its abit late but welll…
In my Opinion Fencer is obviously thief cls if thief cls exist later.
Its Fast its all about crit and has some dodge skill.
Its dual wielding and Pistol + Rapier just have alot of Style 
Btw theres Crossguard in the “Doppel” tree its a “Tank” skill too.
I Play Fencer3/Corsair3 and THIS is a DPS class!!
Let me tell you a secret. There will be no Thief class and there will be no corsair for fencers. But Matador will get a lot of str at least.
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lol
Well time to quit Fencer now ^^
I´d like Fencer But i dont like Matador ´maybe i can build something with Corsair later .__.
Well, I’m going to use this post to organize relevant information that is already confirmed. I might have interpreted something wrong, so feel free to correct me.
STR will increase 2 patk per point + 10% of total STR
CON will increase 0.3% HP per point and 1% stamina per 10 points
DEX will increase attack speed by (DEX/1000) ^0.5 and Critical damage by 2 + 5% per 10 DEX.
SPR does not give SP anymore, so forget it.
Cloth armor will now reduce magic damage by color, from 5% to 15% damage reduction.
Leather armor will increase critical chance by 10% regadless of Color + a separate increase from 4% to 20% based on color.
Plate armor will decrease physical damage by color, from 5% to 15% damage reduction.
Block does not reduce 100% of the damage, but rather 50%. No info concerning if Flanconnade will follow this rule yet.
This skills will be either deleted or realocated. (will update when confirmed)
Swordsman
Restrain
Double Slash
Concentrate
Pommel Beat
Peltasta
Butterfly
Umbo Thrust
Langot
Highlander
Skull Swing
Vertical Slash
Hoplite
Long Stride
Barbarian
Helm Chopper
Giant Swing
Rodelero
Shooting Star
Fencer
Lunge
Attaque Coquille
Doppelsoeldner
Mordschlag
There is a possibility that we receive skills either new or from other trees.