Tree of Savior Forum

Avoid Necromancer

Class and Rank Wizard
#142

This post is complete rubbish.

You are counting on a patch that hasn’t happened yet to make skeletons viable. At this very moment, 4.5 months after ITOS release, necromancers are still total garbage.

Hp got increased from 2,8k each skelleton to 6,5k, will be 7,5k next patch

This did happen on korea. This has NOT yet happened on ITOS, so is not worth discussion yet until it does.

Skelletons also will teleport towards you the moment you move to far away from them or teleport, they will chase a target until it dies tho. Works perfectly fine.

This is a blatant lie. Ask myself or any other C2 necros out there. Does not happen. So many times I have had zero skeletons on screen, summon skellies and NOTHING HAPPENS because they are all over the map fighting random crap.

Dmg will get updated next patch

Another blatant lie. Skeleton damage has not been update on ktos or itos.

They are extremely good to farm dungeons with

Summon AI makes farming dungeons with a N2 an exercise in frustration.

The dmg of that pet is pretty darn good, it hits for about 2,7k dmg here a hit, it’s aoe hits for around 4,1k

More made up numbers. A full int necro with a level 5 shoggoth and level 10 card won’t be seeing any numbers above 3k.

if you walk out of his range he will teleport towards you

More pure fabrication. I honestly wish this was true. It would solve the biggest problem that people who actually play necromancer have with the class, but it is complete bullsh!t. Summons do NOT teleport to you. They get lost on the map fighting random crap and ignore you regardless of how far away you get. This is not even counting the many, many areas of broken terrain throughout that pets will not walk over. And since they don’t teleport either, congrats! You just lost all of your summons because you wanted to walk across the map.

As soggoth will pretty much never die

Shoggoth dies all the time to equal level bosses. Try running a mission with one FFS.

  1. flesh cannon + links is atm the highest damage dealer skill in the game ( yes it beats frost cloud )

No, flesh cannon does not beat frost cloud. This can be EASILY verified by counting the hit count dude. You really need to stop making things up.

Did you seriously just bring up ignition rod??? /facepalm.

So let’s review. You made up teleporting skeletons. YOu made up teleporting shoggoth. You grossly exaggerated shoggoth damage. You made up a skeleton damage boost that doesn’t exist in KTOS patch. You exaggerated skeleton damage. You lied about shoggoth rarely dying. You lied about necros being good for dungeon farming. The one thing you didn’t lie about is a patch on KToS from 2 months ago that we STILL do not have on IToS (skelly hp). You lied about flesh cannon out dpsing frost cloud.

In short, if you have to lie and exaggerate THIS much to make a class sound good, IT IS NOT GOOD.

Necromancers in a nutshell:

#143

So many of the things you say are incorrect in this rebuttal that I don’t know where to start. I’ll try to make it quick by going at the three big ones.

Necro pets do in fact teleport to you if they either kill their targets or you reach extreme leash range. They do not teleport to you at short or medium ranges while fighting a thing, and thank god for that. I don’t need another templeshooter dropping combat if I take two steps away from it.

Flesh cannon - does it beat frost cloud as an AOE? It comes close, with linker support, but not quite. A Wiz3 Necro2 will certainly stomp an elememe in single target damage with it, though. Flesh cannon is A- grade single target or aoe damage. It’s pretty great.

kToS skeletons did in fact get a damage increase via attribute. It used to be 1 per point, and it’s now 1% per point, so they’ll do double damage if you’re a bee farmer lol.

On subject of skeletons, the guy you were “rebutting” was wrong about the HP increase - it actually went up more than he thinks in the most recent kToS patch - 5000, to be specific. There were two skeleton HP buff patches, and we have one of them in iToS, so when we’re up to date past july, every skeleton gets 5000 more hp.

Skeletons will always “feel” frail because they don’t regen.

Here’s patch notes detailing the skeleton buffs:
http://pastebin.com/W15LTpjp

I love my necro! Even if there’s no grind parties I can just wander around storage myself, mowing down clusters of elites.

#144

So many of the things you say are incorrect in this rebuttal that I don’t know where to start

Alright, let’s do this.

Necro pets do in fact teleport to you if they either kill their targets or you reach extreme leash range

I provided video proof that they don’t in the post you are responding to. 0/1.

Flesh cannon - does it beat frost cloud as an AOE? It comes close, with linker support, but not quite

So… I was right. Flesh cannon does not beat frost cloud, even with a linker. Not vs single targets and not vs multiple targets. 0/2.

kToS skeletons did in fact get a damage increase via attribute

You’d have a point if we were playing KToS. Unfortunately for you (and necromancers everywhere tbh), we are not. I maintain that using a patch that has not arrived yet for a discussion of IToS is complete garbage. It took them 4.5 months to do 1 merge with KToS and even when they did, they didn’t bring all of the changes. The patch you are referring to is dated 7/28. So ok, you’ll have a point in 2017 when/if a second merge happens. Until then skeletons are still total garbage. 0/3*.

*To be updated to 1/3 when/if another KToS merge ever occurs.

#145

Man, you just love to nitpick everything instead of understanding the discussion.

I am a necromancer and what @ridleyco says is true.

#146

that video you linked was uploaded in january, isn’t that when there’s no teleport back then? do correct me if i’m wrong.

#147

It’s really not nitpicking to say that counting a patch on KToS for saying necros are good on IToS is wrong and incredibly misleading.

@Granad0 has there been a “necro pets now teleport” patch note since then? If so then I stand corrected. I did take a break for a couple months so I might have missed it. I do not recall seeing it though.

#148

No, flesh cannon does not beat frost cloud. This can be EASILY verified by counting the hit count dude. You really need to stop making things up.

Flesh Cannon does beat frost cloud in DPS assuming that the target does not die in a mere single frost cloud cast (ex. Boss fights)

Assuming 2000 matk with max skill attribute and quick cast attribute

Frost Cloud = [(643 + 2000) * 2 * 1.5] * 32 = 253,728
Flesh Cannon = [(1813 +2000) * 2 * 1.5] * 16 = 182,024

Now from these figures you may think that frost cloud has won. But with actual DPS you divide them for their CD.

Frost Cloud = 253,728 / 30 = 8456.6
Flesh Cannon = 182,024 / 20 = 9,151.2

It is quite a huge damage/s difference. Flesh Cannon will continue to out damage frost cloud when necro hits C3.

At Necro C3:

Flesh Cannon = (2530 + 2000) * 2 * 1.5 = 217,440
Flesh Cannon DPS = 217,440 / 20 = 10.872

For AoE purposes, Frost cloud is arguably the best AoE Spell but for single target bossing skill or dps department Flesh Cannon beats Frost cloud hands down.

#149

Comparing an R7 necro to an R6 ele is pretty dishonest. But I guess whatever you have to do to “win” your argument.

The actual apples to apples comparison is 7432 dps. Flesh cannon loses.

#150

plus the cast time :slight_smile:
■■■■ it im going ele 3 necro 2

#151

Why would you compare it that way? You said that flesh cannon loses to frost cloud.
But in fact flesh cannon has more potential than it. We are comparing skill to skill not rank by rank.

#152

just a heads up:

  • Flesh Cannon: Enhance Lv.1 to Lv.100 total cost = 74,289,926 silvers
  • Frost Cloud: Enhance Lv.1 to Lv.100 total cost = 74,289,926 silvers

to make things clear, computation for damage based on ToS Mechanics (without resistances, property attack, target mdef, etc.):

= ((((magic amp + matk + skill attack) * quick cast) * enhancement) * number of hits)


so, like this (assuming you have zero magic amp, 2000 matk):

Frost Cloud Lv.5 (Elementalist C3):
= (((0 + 2000 + 643) * 1.5) * 2) * 32
= 253,728

every minute you can cast two (30sec cd)
= 507,456

Flesh Cannon Lv.15 (Necromancer C3):
= (((0 + 2000 + 2530) * 1.5) * 2) * 16
= 217,440

every minute you can cast three (20sec cd)
= 652,320


cons of Flesh Cannon:

  1. you need to have Joint Penalty + Hangmans Knot
  2. corpse mechanic (15 per skill)
  3. decay does not work on bosses (and some mobs on higher level maps, same with Joint Penalty)
  4. no element, so you will not have the +50% damage bonus vs weak element
  5. has visual cue before damage hits (pvp-wise)

pros of Flesh Cannon:

  1. higher total DPS
  2. Decay Attribute (chance is same with Fireball Burn Debuff: 50%)
  3. decay doubles missile damage (according to damage tests), so synergy with Archer classes and Archer skel summons (Necro C3)
  4. no element, so you will not have the -50% damage penalty vs strong element
  5. hits flying targets

Verdict of Frost Cloud vs Flesh Cannon: it depends on your playstyle and situation

1 Like
#153

Plus Flesh Cannon can hit flying mobs. We may or may have content/s in the future that can invalidate frost cloud. But yes you can choose whatever you would like to play. I just merely posted a refutal to the claim where Frost Cloud > Flesh Cannon in DPS and provided proof why it is incorrect.

#154

Flesh Cannon doesn’t need hangmans knot.

#155

as i have said: [quote=“MangKanor_PH, post:152, topic:208726”]
depends on your playstyle and situation
[/quote]

/20taltsss…

#156

Overall ele3/warlock beats necro2 in allmost all situations. Dark Theurge + Frost Cloud its a strongest damage from wizard. With Necro you cant take Warlock, so overall dps is much lower.

1 Like
#158

DT only works while you keep bodying your enemy. Talking about pvp, unless you’re facing a meele character, you’ll have problem to keep so close with your target as ele3/warlock since you don’t have CC and mobility to help you keeping the enemy stopped or making you faster than them.

#159

Because comparing a Rank 7 10 point skill to a Rank 6 5 point skill is inherently biased?

Yeah, at rank 7 the necro gets 5 more points in its primary nuke. At rank 7 an elememe gets the entirety of the warlock class.

There is no point to this discussion. Necro cannot compete with wiz3ele3war in terms of raw nuking power.

This SHOULD be made up by the power of necro summons, but right now they are so flimsy, slow and buggy that it just is not happening.

#160

I was just comparing Flesh Cannon vs Frost Cloud. I wasn’t comparing the ranks and builds. Flesh Cannon still has a long way to go while Frost Cloud is already at its limit.

I was pointing out that your argument that frost cloud has greater dps than flesh cannon is simply false.

Hit count as the sole measure of damage. Really? :joy:

#161

I feel like we’re not making any headway here.

The only way for you to come up with a formula where flesh cannon beats frost cloud is by giving the necromancer and ENTIRE RANK above the elementalist. That is dishonest plain and simple.

At this point we’re talking about a rank 7-8 skill. OF COURSE it is going to beat a rank 6 skill. If not it would be total garbage. But what you’re missing in your strict Rank 7 vs Rank 6 dps calculation is the things that don’t really get measured.

Flesh cannon has a long cast time. Actually, this is something that can be measured, you simply failed to do so in your calculation post. Even with quick cast the spell does not do damage until you cast it. And you cannot begin casting it until the cooldown finishes. Furthermore, Flesh cannon has a long aftercast animation. Yes, it can be cancelled, but if you experience lag or delay of any sort (surely no one experiences lag or delay on IToS servers!) the ani cancel gets stuck. Flesh cannon has a reagent cost which is 500s per cast.

Meanwhile, Frost Cloud has a significantly wider AoE which makes it much easier to aim. Frost Cloud is instant cast. Frost Cloud scales better with CDR from Diev & Chrono. Frost cloud scales better with MATK. Frost cloud scales better with Blessing. Frost cloud scales better with ele atk. Enchant fire, Sacrament, Swell left arm, swell right arm, Swell brain, etc etc. Weapon enchants, awakening, squire enhancements, gear enhancement, m-amp, ele atk headgear. The list goes on. The better our gear gets the better frost cloud gets in comparison.

A certain popular end game destination cough ET cough is filled with fire ele mobs which receive yet another 50% multiplicative damage boost from frost cloud.

The only area where frost cloud loses hands down to flesh cannon is when it comes to flying mobs. So congratulations, for a minority of trash pulls you will be able to beat the elementalist at killing trash.

Frost Cloud is simply a better spell. That should have been OBVIOUS to you the instant you found yourself grabbing Rank 7 numbers for a comparison with a Rank 6 spell.

p.s. grats on catching my typo.

#162

wtf are you talking about? shoggoth has always teleported to me if i was ever too far away from him. i’m beginning to think you don’t even play the class and are just a troll lmao