Well that’s the only kind of counter argument I can make without a proper definition from the opposing side. I can keep trying to enforce my own definitions but that’s only for the opening statements in a debate. What follows is to refute the opposing statements and that requires a clearly defined opposing idea (hence I keep asking for the theme). The point still stands that shields can NOT be the basis for the defense tag because it is regularly used as a WEAPON and everybody can equip a shield.
ask yourself what the primary purpose of a shield is, its certainly not to beat something into submission…
when a person equips a shield they use it to “shield” themselves from harm, aka to “defend” themselves, why is a shield a symbol of defense?, how could they not be the basis of the currently undefined defense tag???, what other symbol/object gives as much or equal connotation to defense? you can litteraly google defense and the 1st picture that shows up is a shield…
lots of things can be used as weapons…
Yes that is the real world ideology to a shield. I’m not refuting that. I can not define this game by the rules of the real world because despite it being inspired by it, ToS is not the real world.
I’m talking about THIS game where shields are CLEARLY used as weapons and the only active use of a shield to defend is the “c guard” that is only available to 4 (pelt rod murm pala, do correct me if there are others) out of 66 classes.
I’m also talking about ToS’s defense and not the real world defense. ToS’s defense isn’t even clearly defined by its creators.
My statement was
The word defense is in context to the defense tag used in IMC’s official page (which I clearely referred to with my hyperlinks) and not the real world definition of defense. I believe here is where I point out the straw man fallacy where you refute the straw man argument that
- “Shields are commonly used as blunt weapons so that can’t be the basis for real world definition of defense”
which I did not make, instead of refuting
- “Shields are commonly used as blunt weapons so that can’t be the basis for defense tag on IMC’s official website”
Lucky for me ToS has a clearly defined list of what can be used as weapons, which happens to be a common use of shields.
IDK, With the introduction of bazooka some time ago, we got a slow but strong AA option. If archers can get running shot as it is I’m not opposed to getting a slow but strong xbow stance for QS. I would certainly like for it to have interaction with pavise (like clerics have with barrier: devotion).
If you think about it, what class still really uses xbows to AA. BM have a stance that “ignores” the xbow. Falconers don’t specifically look for xbows for any of their skills. The only other AA builds use rifles or cannons.
yes they are used as weapons, but your forgetting that shields in this game give armor, and a whole slew of other defensive stats, just because they are used for attacking by certain classes, does not mean that they serve a purpose in bolstering ones defense, i dont know why your looking at them as weapons when clearly, their primary purpose in this game is the same IRL, to provide defense, possibly to shield ones self from all that harm coming from all that damage, and hey maybe even some specialized classes can make use of these shields as more than defensive tools and use them as weapons.
literally have no idea what your saying here lol? do you think ToS wasn’t created by humans using human concepts…
And the latest iteration for shield use takes that armor and adds it to atk for final damage calculations.
They give offensive stats too.
Again, this is simple real world ideology that inspires the shield in ToS but is not the rule that defines them. You simply want it to be. If you want to discuss that ideology I could say I am defending myself and others by killing (therefore attacking) every single enemy that comes my way. That would be hugely OT for this thread though.
Because in THIS game they are. Would you like a list of skills that use them as weapons?
Because though they are created by humans inspired by human concepts, the word defense as used in the official class page is not defined and as such can not be used to make claims of what should and shouldn’t be in the game ToS.
used by classes which specialize in using shields as weapons.
but they always give defensive stats.
uhh were talking about shields and thier relation to defense, why would the creators of this game think that shields are mainly used for attacking? this isnt a simple real world ideology… its just a fact… the fact that shields are mainly used to defend, therefore they symbolize defense, so your saying the creators of ToS ignored this fact when creating “the entity” known as “shields” in their game
but its implied in the descriptions…
Doesn’t invalidate the point that shields in this game are weapons.
Doesn’t invalidate the point that shield give offensive stats alluding to the point that shields in this game are weapons.
Because every active skill attached to using (requiring) a shield is attached to dealing damage. This isn’t assumption either.
So show me the list of skills in this game that use (require) the shield (exclusively, meaning only shields do it) defensively that outnumber their use offensively. There is only 1 skill I know of that is exclusively available to the shield that is defensive only and that is “c guard” (I count it as a skill even though it is an attribute because c guarding is still an action). Everything else that is shield exclusive is attached to damage. You could argue high guard because it penalizes atk but that is being change to remove the offensive penalty further cementing the “shield is a weapon narrative”. With that I get to boost umbo blow and rim blow damage without reducing my base atk 1st.
All I need are 2 skills skills that use the shield for offense to refute the claim “shields are mainly used to defend”. The word “mainly” alludes to majority which means more than 50%. Pelt already has 7 but I’ll name just 2: umbo blow and rim blow.
Now to bring this back to the quarrel shooter where it all started, how do QS skills use the shield again? They don’t? What about attributes? Oh there’s 1 shield mastery: missile defense increase your atk … by 50% shield def… when you block …
Apparently they did because the game itself provides evidence that they did (see above).
Ahah!! And here lies the key that supports my argument. What is implied is not stated making any implied definition you present derived completely by an outside party (unless you are in fact an employee of IMC with their development team in which case makes my entire argument completely wrong).
In short, this view you share with some others is simply what you want ToS to be but isn’t (as shown by numerous examples refuting quite a lot of the claims).
Just in case, ARE you an employee of IMC in their dev team?
never said they were not, so what if they are used as weapons, doesnt detract from the fact that they are mainly used for defense
Doesn’t invalidate the point that shields give defensive stats alluding to the point that shields in this game are symbols of defense
why are you so fixated on skills? like i said the actual shield items in this game exist to be used for defense, why do thier usage for skills apply here? does wearing plate armor mean that having no skill that uses them invalidates them from being primarily used for defense
like i said why so tunneled on skills? shields are categorized as “armor” for a reason…
yea they dont, which is why people in this thread suggested that they ought to more, so their kit fits with their theme…
uhh just read the actual descriptions m8, im not pulling it out of my ass, most if not all the “defense classes” allude to being defensive heres one for ya
Cryomancers use powerful ice magic to freeze enemies, or protect their allies from enemies by using ice walls.
Finally, common ground. So you don;t actually refute my claim that shields in this game are weapons. My point of contention is “mainly used for defense” which you attempt to refute with “why fixate on skills”. See below.
Skills are the bread and butter of choosing classes. You chose c1/2/3 of a class for skills only available at c1/2/3 of the class. Otherwise you only have AA’s and stats in which case the only shield related stat is block.
And yet they don’t behave the same way as armor when you get hit. See, armor loses durability when you get hit. Shields don’t. Guess when they do lose durability
Or … maybe … the actual theme the dev team is using is correct and the theme you want it to be is actually what’s wrong.
Finally read the page. And did it say what “defense classes” actually means or did you infer that? That’s my whole argument in fact. IMC never really defined their terms making anything inferred can’t officially define something as vague or abstract as “class theme”.
I’m glad you took the cryo flavor text as your example. 1, ice walls don’t actually protect anyone (infact ice wall is deployed so other players can combo with it to deal even more damage, else ice walls are actually a detriment to the party)… Ice wall doesn’t reduce or prevent damage. All ice wall does is change pathing. 2 (which is actually more important), cryomancers are tagged “attack” (which ice wall actually supports). Take note they could have been tagged “attack, defense” like murmillo but they aren’t.
so are items though, most skills have equip restrictions, an example of a shield using tree which doesn’t utilize shield skills is hop3>dragoon3 this path can easily go for 2 handed spears but the huge block bonus from finnestra is too good to pass up, pvp builds favor shields, because block is strong.
same distinction can be applied to the armor themselves, eg. if you stack 4 plate, you get physical damage reduction
no assumptions allowed here.
apply occams razor, i have to make less assumptions about the capabilities of the class if i use the color coding, maybe, as your saying, they abandoned the boundaries for the color coding thing, but its easy to see what they were going for here.
i used it because it the least defensive class in the whole category they have, cryo3 used to be a far better defensive class until they nerfed ice tree, and made it more about damage, so yea they did change this one to be more damage heavy, doesn’t mean it cant be used defensively with all its CC
But I’m not disputing items, I’m disputing how shields are actually weapons and not “mainly” used for defense.
Then you agree that skills can’t be discounted and are a valid reason to support the claim that shields in this game are weapons.
A flaw in your example is that the block that is too good to pass up doesn’t actually work if you don’t have a shield. There are special cases that allow for blocking without a shield but that is the “exemption and not the rule” (that’s an expression with a specific meaning to it).
If you want to look at finestra per say, it is not a shield skill as you can use it without a shield. Rather it is a spear skill as you can’t use it without a spear.
I’m glad you raise this point. The armor masteries only apply to armor, correct? Cloth mastery for cloth, leather mastery for leather, and plate mastery for plate. If you equip 3 of the same kind you get a bonus. If you equip 4 of the same kind you get an additional bonus. If you use 2 cloth/leather/plate + a shield you do not get the 3 pcs armor bonus. If you use 3 cloth/leather/plate + a shield you do not get the 4 pcs bonus.
So again, more proof that shields don’t even behave the same as armor. On the other hand there is plenty of proof saying shields are weapons.
And yet you assume the skill set is wrong because your theme is right.
Intent and reality are not the same thing. It’s pretty clear here since even you admit your intent is not the reality they created.
Then since you agree that shields are indeed weapons, skills are a valid point for defining shields as weapons, that you can’t assume that IMC’s design is wrong, and these colors and terms are outdated conventions that IMC doesn’t even follow anymore, I rest my case.
by a very few and select amount of classes…
mainly in the warrior tree…
what about all the other classes in this game which use shields? eg. support classes that use it to be more survivable. pvp builds that use it capitalize from all the block from stacking con,
shields as weapons are exceptions to the rule.
because they are not plate/cloth/leather? they are shields catagorized as armor along with plate/cloth/leather, shields having block is the same as plate/cloth/leather being able to be stacked for bonuses, its just a feature inherent to that armor type.
you need more chill lol.
what is the reality they created then? i could literally say the same thing to you, youd have to make more assumptions than i (are shields really weapons in this game?, does using a shield as the symbol for defense not follow with IMC’s supposed design decision to create shields as weapons? etc.)
they are weapons for a select few, and even for those select few they still function the same way they would for other classes… what do they exist as for the other classes then? nothing more than unusable “weapons” or the defensive tools that they really are.
dang you changed my facial look now.
can’t stop laughing.
Another thing I’d like to see changed is the fact that some skills doesnt hit flying mobs…man, thats annoying…I dont remember any any other class having this issue.
Uh, you haven’t played with wizard or cleric classes then. There’s a reason Kino has a skill to bring mobs down to the ground and Taoist has a skill to lift magic circles.
Pavise : Mostly used for CC and blocking missiles.
Caltrops : Mostly used for the CC. It deals a lot of damages to bosses in PvP it can also be the targets of spells instead of you.
Stone Shot : For the CC.
Rapid Fire : Sucks and is bugged. People are using it to deal damages to oponents in PvP in a defensive way, at the beggining of the match.
Teardown : Used to destroy obstacles, clearly not for DPS.
Damages for all these skills are below 400% at lvl 15 . You sure gonna rush on a monster (in end content), or a player and use your pavise to deal damages lel. Remember these skills have a high couldown, or in the case of Stone Shot, need stones (a DPS class doesn’t have the time to collect stones on the ground).
No, it’s skills that have great utility and add minor DPS. You seem to forget these skills are used in a defensive way most of the time, it’s why you can’t call that “DPS skills”. Do you think QS1 is taken as a filler because it’s a DPS class, or because they have one attribute that helps you to block missiles easier and give you PAtk in addition ?
I cannot find anything about IMC on this topic, but they changed class icons few times, so there’s certainly a clear meaning for IMC.
So, if IMC won’t tell us, we have to make our own definitions to understand class goals. And it’s something we did a long time ago :
Green = Support
Red = Offesive
Yellow = Craft
Blue = Defensive
Recent colors :
Purple : Summon
Blank : Guild
IMC is giving these icons depending on the main gameplay of each class.
NB : They didn’t change QS icon color in the last recent patch that turned some yellow classes into green classes.
While I agree it is kind of strange sometimes (Fletcher is kind of hard to characterize), I really don’t get why you don’t understand that a class which has mostly skills used in a defensive way, is a defense themed class. Every class can be a DPS class because : Skill combat patch + Pardoner buff eternal meta + Gears + Lot of BS. Still, QS gameplay is all around defense.
PS : I remember a very old Trailer where you could see a QS using Kneeling Shot (dunno if it was a skill from QS or Archer at this time of development), and they didn’t showcase Running Shot.
Bugged how? What are you doing to identify that it’s bugged?
Seemed to work as recently as a few days ago.
Sometimes it fires nothing, and sometimes it doesn’t fire every shot. And I’m not talking about bugs related to all skills you need to cast x’). I’m sure IMC said they solved bugs related to Rapid Fire in a patch, but I saw no big difference.
So I google the word fletcher and I get “a person who makes and sells arrows”. The salesperson part of the class never really worked even from the start due to the fact that unlike scribes, only archers can use the products of fletchers. Not only that only fletchers can use these products as well. The only reason to not make your own arrows is that bug where crafting just stops.
- If this were changed to allow “any archer” to use said arrows (like how any class can use scrolls) then the feature would make sense. That would open up some combos like rogues gaining an on demand bleed for backstab: massive bleeding
There is also the “lag” problem with skills using reagents because of how the UI re-draws EVERYTHING in the inventory when ever something (anything) is changed (like consuming an arrow). The only bandaid I can think off is 1OH low cd skills (like magic arrow). Is this even still a thing though?
On the other side of things, what is a fletcher that doesn’t sell arrows and simply makes them? A bow/xbow buffer? These buff could be “Stances” like DGS, ram muay that cancel each other out (so you don’t OD on buffs). Maybe something with arrow tips and fletchings
Arrow tip examples
- penetraiting tips could make your AA’s behave like pre nerf pistols that hit everything in a straight line
- exploding tips could make your AA’s AoE like a cannoneer in bazooka
Fletching examples
- straight fletchings can increase damage
- helical fletchings can increase block pen
So you would only have 1 arrow tip and 1 fletching buff at a time.