Tree of Savior Forum

Anyone Else Disappointed?

I was fortunately given the opportunity to participate in the second Closed Beta Testing for Tree of Savior, and I have to say that I was overall not very impressed. My history is about a decade-worth of Ragnarok Online, and I was hoping that ToS would be utilizing similar concepts, but branching off of them in new, innovative, fun ways. Unfortunately what I discovered instead was something that has a great deal of visual appeal and a fun beat-'em-up style hack-n-slash fighting mechanic, but is significantly lacking in the substance department.

LEVELING

Going into this after playing RO, one of the things I was hoping for most was that the grindy-ness would have been mitigated, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. The level cap has been increased when compared to RO, so the numbers rise more quickly, but this was a closed beta where last I heard the exp was significantly increased for testing purposes (someone please correct me if this is not true). If this was the case, I imagine it is going to require leveling be a full-time job to reach max level in any reasonable amount of time. Which is not terribly appealing to me. This may not be such a big deal if it wasn’t for…

CLASSES

When I was first reading about the class system, I thought, ā€œWow! This is really interesting and incredibly customizable! Think of all the ways you can design your character by utilizing different amounts of each circle! Sooo cool!ā€

This is one of my biggest disapointments: classes are incredibly restrictive and not very diverse at all. Several classes either have such specific niches that it makes the class useless in any situation outside of their niche, or the only skills the class has access to are incredibly boring: the fact there is an entire class dedicated to making different bodyparts larger for the sake of buffing different stats seems neat in theory, but after realizing how longer you have to go through that class, only learning skills that increase body parts, makes the progression sluggish, boring, and most importantly uninteresting. There is no intricacy to this class–you point and click a character, a part of their body grows, and they get stronger in some way. It is linear, there are no subtle or nuanced effects to make it any more interesting, that’s all it is. Even adding some mechanic that allows you to prolong the growth by doing something–like you have to use 4 different skills within a time limit to reset the timer or something–that would not only give you something else to think about, it would promote the use of more than one ability and give people a reason to use skills they may have otherwise been ignoring. Speaking of which…

So many skills quickly become obsolete, or even start out at obsolete when compared to other skills in the same tree. Why would I want to use a time-bomb arrow on a Ranger when I can just kill those monsters with a single Barrage? Or with several Oblique Shots? Why would I ever use Bash or Wagon Wheel on a Swordsman or Highlander when I can just auto attack or use Carter Stroke? There were so many skills that were not anywhere near SP-efficient when comparing the damage they deal and the SP they take to just normal attacks.

One of the saddest things I noticed when reading about optimal builds was that most of the time, the most stat-efficient builds for late-game situations basicaly REQUIRE you to get 2-3 circles deep into an incredibly boring class. I understand that there is a compromise a player makes when choosing to make a character that way, but a player shouldn’t have to make a choice between being viable late game or in PvP, or actually having fun leveling.

The differences between classes are almost indistinguishable in several cases, where the biggest difference is whether you can take a few hits while running into large mobs before using your strongest AoE attack, or whether you have to kite things around before casting your best AoE attack. How do you play a Ranger? Gather up mobs and use barrage. How do you play a pyromancer? Gather up mobs and use flame ground. How do you play Highlander? Gather up mobs and use Carter Stroke. Maybe you can get a slight variance in your rotation, and the effects look a bit different, but you’re doing the exact same thing with most of the classes. Worst of all, if you aren’t doing those things, you’re penalized by not being able to level as quickly since the quickest way to level is to kill the most monsters as quickly as possible. This severely hinders the ability for single-target classes to level well. What if there were zones with very powerful monsters that give significantly more exp and don’t mob heavily at all? So that you could either solo it as a strong duelist class, or take them down with a large party, etc. This would at least create some form of diversity in leveling outside of mobbing things and AoE blasting them.

WORLD MAP/EXPLORATION

One of the best things about Ragnarok Online was that the world was not only HUGE, it was incredibly diverse and fun to explore. With how beautiful the art in ToS is and the intricacy of the terrain and detail in the environment, I was really hoping it might be comparable to the world of RO…but it wasn’t at all.

Instead of being an open world with lots of nooks and crannies to explore, we’re stuck in a word of alleyways and pathways that direct your travel and hinder exploration significantly. Getting lost is part of the fun of huge, open worlds–it’s impossible to get lost and find anything fun or interesting when every section of every map has a clearly defined direction and doesn’t let you blaze your own path. I feel like I’m being babied and corralled into a specific direction and feel severely inhibited when it comes to exploring the world. It’s never been a challenge to get anywhere because there are only so many places you can look before the map shows you the pathway to get there.

CONCLUSIONS

I definitely feel like ToS has some very positive traits: the artwork is beautiful, the style is charming, the hack-n-slash fighting can be exciting and immersive. But there are some significant aspects of ToS that were very lacking in my opinion: Grinding necessity, class diversity, exploration.

I’d love to hear what other people think about these critiques, and if anyone has any counter-points to make regarding any of my points, I’m all ears!

Oh also I’m sad there’s no fast-attacking stealthy class, at least not for early levels, or anything specifically dedicated to it. :< I just wanna weild double daggers or katars or something, man! BOPBOPBOP!!

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Your main problem is that you are demanding that ToS should be an improved version of RO, and that is silly. This game feels unique in many ways, and that’s what is great about it. Of course there are thing you won’t like, as everyone else with all other games. Theres a large amount of people that are happy with the game as it is, and not because it’s similar to RO.

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Is it a bit lackluster right now?
Depends on your outlook, but I do agree it’s not ā€˜amazing’.

Am I disappointed?
Somewhat.

Do I think this gets better with time?
Isn’t that what we’re here to see?


ToS distinguishes itself badly, I do agree.
The whole 80 classes thing isn’t as amazing as say PoE’s diverse approach to skill building.
(it’s really just a big, classic skill tree)

Right now, ToS is missing many features to distinguish itself like with other outstanding MMORPGs,
but I’d like to give it the chance to do so.

If we’re unfortunate, ToS will turn out to be another casual cash milker.
If we’re not… who knows.

If you have anything better to play, then I suggest you go enjoy that.
My list of things I have hopes for is pretty long,
but the only one that is making itself readily available to me now, is ToS.

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You started completely wrong, IMC never claimed this game o be like RO neither be a hack’n slash, neither will be, just because is the same people who developed one, doesn’t mean the other will be like.

And before we go even further, i am sure you will be even more disappointed with the future of ToS, then you should stop now.

First off, we where on a CBT, and we had a limited time to play (1 month), on OBT will be different, the level cap was raised and we got another extra Rank, you are complaining about Thaumaturge being slow and only do buff/debuff, that is what a support class is supposed to be, i played it on the last 3 days as Pyro C2 Thau C1 and had fun with it, i played with the Diev class (on cleric tree) the only reason i didn’t had fun with it was that most skills where bugged and i left it alone, i played as sorc, didn’t liked the way summon handle SP, if at least the SP recovery was on during summon i would like it, i did some suggestions about that class on an old thread but it is there buried somewhere.

In resume, every class have a weakness, but when used correctly it can make a huge difference, and 1 month is not enough for us to test the way we want.

RO is there waiting for you to go back.

On relation to maps, i do agree that the maps are linear somehow, but i think it would be interesting if the maps where more filled, could have some mini-games or puzzles to get some chest with a special recipe or rare material (and 1 time only like it is already), on that aspect, i think there is space for improvement.


Don’t expect this game to become RO, if you want RO go back to RO, if you want to try something new and different, stay here, you have free choice.

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I agree that it shouldn’t be just an upgraded RO…but still… if there is a good feature in mmos they should go with that instead of going with the bad but generic one.

The linear gameplay that most game has since years is the worst thing happened in mmos ever… still everbody does it… and it is horrible.

ToS worked on it a bit since the ICBTs but I would say it is still not there…I just hope it can turn somewhat non linear with good features and more maps in one day.

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Idk, if we’re talking about RO, the most fun I’ve had was when they started releasing those crazy impossible dungeons like Nameless Island, Thor and Bio Lab. And that came a looooot later.

RO CBT only had 1st jobs or so I’m told xD.

So yeah, let’s wait and see. I do agree that the current basis for development is a bit weak and won’t really allow for ā€œgreatā€ content. But nowadays there’s very little ā€œgreatā€ in the market anyway, so I’ll settle for pretty good.

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This is actually a pretty good critique imo, though this is from the perspective of someone who hasn’t tried the game yet so I don’t exactly have an opinion of my own.

The maps thing is a definite disappointment, open worlds are always infinitely more fun than blocky, closed ones. However, (from watching videos anyways) I noticed there were hidden quests to discover on field maps which makes things interesting imo.

I would say the specific gameplay thing being detrimental to single-target classes is mitigated by linker, but it’s right that I don’t like for a bunch of classes to be dependent on a single one. Then again, I like how much the game promotes cooperative play.

I still think the classes are very interesting, especially from a support perspective. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the differences between classes will shine more in party play. I’m still super excited to see how different classes work together most efficiently HAHA I feel like it’s a game that requires teamwork and a sort of synchro with your team members and I really like that.

I agree that many skills are very niche (giant rune tf), but with some rebalancing, I’m sure that they can be made usable.

The grind thing is different for me since I like high caps and long ways to them but I can see how that would hinder trying out classes. I would be pretty irritated if I dumped weeks into a class only for it to be unsuited to my playstyle. Everyone’s sort of betting that they’ll like what they play without a chance to try it.

tl;dr: YOUR POINTS ARE VALID MAN BUT I STILL AM EXCITED FOR THE GAME

I understand why you might think that, but I actually was not demanding anything–I was simply using RO as a point of reference for my comparisons. I am happy to compare it to any other MMO–Guild Wars 2, Maplestory, World of Warcraft, Dragon Nest–but I chose to compare it to RO because 1. I have a great deal of experience with RO, and 2. it was created by the same person.

Similarly to my response to Korgan, I agree with you–ToS is not RO, and therefore they will be different. And I want them to be! RO was not without its own issues: incredibly clunky mechanics, terrible class balance, grindy leveling system.

The reason I am comparing ToS to RO is not because I expect ToS to be an improved version of RO, but rather because I would expect the creator of RO to extract the good things about a game he’s already created and had great success with, and improve upon the things that did not go so well when creating a new game. What @Avalon said perfectly sums up what I mean:

If I wanted to still play RO, I’m aware it still exists, and I would. The reason I’m posting here is because I see some potential in ToS that I really like, and I’m hoping to elicit some engaging dialogue about its shortcomings in the hopes that maybe people can advocate for improvements. :smiley:

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THIS THIS THIS!! If they make it super difficult to get to classes that are basically vastly different than anything you have been playing thusfar, and make it impossible to revert and try another class or something after deciding it’s not for you, than that’s going to be detrimental. That’s another thing I’d forgotten to mention in my large critique, so thank you for pointing it out. I think it’s a bit absurd how far you have to get into the trees to get anything of decent use, and if you end up not liking it there’s no way to revert.

Honestly, if they made it so you could reset your CLASS whenever you wanted so that you could delve into other circles to try them out, I think that would completely mitigate my concerns with it, because then I would at least be able to test things out. And also I could still have fun leveling as a Highlander, reset once I hit Pirate and go deeper into swordie tree for the buffs since that will help my later circle more. I would like that. :3

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They rushed to open that is why the game don’t look good enuf. Some system is just a half bake or placeholder (mainly guild system and class balance).

Still have high hope :pensive:

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And that is where you are going wrong, 2 completely different games, they aren’t the same, only the camera view (isometric), and even so ToS camera is fixed with only zoom levels.
Its like saying all the isometric games out there are Diablo Clone.

About grind, you can’t do much about it, it seem to be an Asian thing, in almost every MMO from Asia have a heavy grinding system.

You think ToS is grindy? Try to play an old game called Redstone Online, the max level is 1000, it is around for some time now, i think 2 or 3 years under the developer, and it is now on Steam also, and guess what? It is a game that is team dependent to level, almost every cave have a secret dungeon that need at least 3 players, but since the game is almost dead, and you only see people on level 400+, you can’t level properly, i got a Maid stuck on level 110 because there is no one to do SD for the exp, neither people to power level.

If ToS exp rate is like on kToS then we are fine.

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You misquoted me. I said, ā€œThe reason I am comparing ToS to RO is NOT because I expect ToS to be an improved version of RO…etcā€

I agree that saying a game is similar based on the camera angle is absurd. We are in agreement. :0 In fact, I thank you for bringing it up, because that’s something about RO that I miss in ToS. ;_; Stinkin’ locked camera…

Yeah, i just saw that i am sorry for the mistake.

Well, in all honesty, it is too earlier to be worrying about some stuff, i mean, we didn’t even got to play the whole 500 levels proposed initially, not to mention there are a bunch of stuff that need fix and balance, and i can see that they are testing out some stuff too.

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Just some notes here:

Leveling now is much easier than it was in icbt2. Content has been added in that fills the gap that was present before. You also can level fine without having a build that focuses solely on DPS and farming mobs quickly.

As far as classes you are using Thaumaturge as an example. The class that can flip other’s magic circles upside down and use them for themselves, turn monsters smaller/larger for different purposes, and swap their INT/CON to switch between super tanky and damage dealer. Nothing interesting about this? I don’t know what you want.

Why would you want to use time bomb arrow on a ranger? To knockdown an enemy and CC them so you can get up close and barrage for full damage.

Why use bash or wagon wheel? To knockdown and CC enemies, or to push them into an AoE damage effect.

You look at CC skills and only evaluate their damage, of course that isn’t interesting.

I don’t really agree with the rest of your assessment that playing different classes feels the same. Playing a hoplite2/3 feels completely different than playing a highlander2/3, or of all things, a pyromancer.

Also, the game has changed quite a bit since icbt2. There is a desire for high single target damage as well for boss killing, Siauliai mission raid giving the best exp atm ( which is just 4 boss fights ), or if you have a linker in the party.

However, I do agree with you on the world map exploration. It’s not very interesting, and I find myself ignoring my surroundings due to how the game is designed. You’re on a map to get to a dungeon, to get to an NPC to do quests and go from point A to point B. There’s little reason to explore and appreciate the maps. Part of this is quests, and a big part of this is that maps are split by level and monsters have a harsh level penalty. If you’re a certain level, going anywhere but a few maps will leave you either gaining no exp, or also taking ridiculous amounts of damage. This is WoW map design and I hate that it influenced this game.

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i don’t agree with this guy, is just a child crying because the game don’t fit with his taste, if you don’t like it, don’t play it

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I do admit my oversimplification of the Thaumaturge was a bit drastic, and I do think having the ability to change enemy magic circles into friendly ones is pretty neat, and increasing monsters’ sizes to improve exp/drops is cool, but I hold that those things don’t really warrant an entire class of their own, let alone being required to get into circle 2 to get that very interesting spell.

I feel like each class just doesn’t have enough going on for itself in most cases, or it takes too long to get to something that actually feels significantly useful. There are exceptions, of course, but the overwhelming majority feels underwhelming.

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@Kensote You’re more than welcome to disagree. :] But if you can’t handle a bit of critique, I would recommend not reading critique threads; it’s only going to upset you. And seeing as you couldn’t even provide any semblance of counter-argument to any of my points, I’m going to assume you don’t have any, in which case, why bother posting here at all? :0

Growth and improvement is only obtained through significant observation of critique, which leads to positive change. You can’t improve something if you aren’t willing to admit there’s something wrong. If I wanted to make a thread about ā€œwah wah this game stinks!ā€ then I’d have done just that. Instead, I’m offering critiques with explanations to seek improvement. :smiley:

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That’s really disappointing to hear that the maps are all hallways. I was really hoping for large open spaces.

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This is, as a matter of fact, part of the point of the whole system to begin with.
The idea is for you to mix and match diferent classes that work (or at least you think/expect to work) togueter for an stronger result and more efective result.
We have easy ones such as WizardC3->ElementalistC3, RangerC3->FletcherC3 and some the game itself gives you in PriestC3->Chaplain. But this is not all of them nor should they be, if you close your minds to ā€˜ā€˜optimal’’ combinations and setups of course a lot of things will seem underwhelming, because under that perspective they are.
But even then they can be mixed with others for a fun and effective mix.

The game as a matter of fact has a long way to go balance wise, but that’s no more than a matter of time as IMC has shown to be working on it week to week in patches, even if particularly notable ones are still untouched.

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Nah, even in this stage TOS is better then RO in final form. :smile:

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