Tbh, that’s not a fair comparison at all. You compared a skull swing at 280 world boss with hard def to you hitting a random mob that probably has way way less defense than the 280 boss. What if you did cleave + seism on that world boss without armor break?
Your crits will be much lower and modifiers and attribute enhancements will get crippled as well. Not saying which one is better though.
He asked for pvp, so highlander 3.
In pvp you will not try to kill some one with a rank 2 skill unless you are in a crazy moment.
Seism does what, 4 attacks?
So you neglected something important here:
Using your data:
Seism: 10k=2.5k4
Seism buffed by Cleave: 15k=2.5k1.5*4
Seism with Skull Swing at a 800 DEF Monster: 13.2k=(2.5k+800)*4
So, it seems to favor Multi-hit skills (you’re treating skills as a whole, lumping the modifiers together).
Okay, it still gives less damage, but it also buffs the whole party.
Well, in the end it’s a matter of taste, and I still think that with Cleave, you can do more damage.
But I still prefer Skull Swing for utility.
yes you are right, and this was one of the points of why i have not understand you criticism , since in my posts and his we have have talked for multiples scenarios where i have said that highlander2 barb1 would be better for PVE damage wise and highlander3 for PVP and this is why i have not understand your criticism about it, since we HAD AGREE that highlander3 is better for pvp, the talk of highlander2 barb i have wrote it about it would be better at PVE only.
dude , i gonna be serious with you, i’m not gonna search for the mobs to do the test, this is something that already have been done multiples times you can search about it and any player who is at 280 knows, % scaling gives a lot more damage than FLAT reduction and the reason is simple, right now the amount of stats from mobs is not high, and because of that reductions like the one from skull swing, loses to the ones with scaling effects like cleave.
i hope that in the future IMC will add raid bosses with like HUGE DEFS or HUGE MDEF, this would be a nice thing to see since it would allow skills like skull swing shine a lot more than today, but again it is not bad, not even close.
if you are aiming for a bosskiller with the fencer once you see the big picture skull swing could do a better job in some scenarios , since would offer bonus from all the PT that uses pieces-strikes and so on and cleave is “SLASH” only, but on the other side of the coin if you have a PT with full slash damage, cleave will perform a lot better than skull swing.
you are wrong, seism does not do 4 atks, not even 3 like the image show, it is a FAKE MULTI HIT SKILL, that have a coefficient of 70% and this make the skill even more bad example for cleave, since flat reduction like the ones from SKULL swing is better with multi hit skills, but the main problem here is not the skill, it is the stats, RIGHT now, the mobs simple have far lower defense and this allow for the 50% cleave buff to have a greater effect than the skull swing , simple as that, and by the way the game is evolving, this result will just keep going as well, of course in the future this can change, but who knows the future?
now, on this we can agree, after all i have never said which one is better, i only have said that one may do more damage than other, simple as that.
effective defense of the enemy gets subtracted at the beginning to your skill damage and base damage so your crits/non crits will be much lower and thus modifiers multiplying them will be multiplied to much smaller number. I don’t know what else to tell you.
(((((Skill Attack + Effective Attack) + (random(0% … 100%) * Magic Amplification)) * (100% + T0)) - ((Effective Defense * (100% + Level Penalty)) + Elemental Resistance)) * (100% + (0 or 50% if crit)) + (0 or Critical Attack) + Extra Elemental Attack + Enemy Specific Damage) * (100% + T1) * (100% + T2) * (100% + T3) * (100% + Enhance) + Bonus Damage
Monsters def keeping growing, so your dmg will fall off.
Skull swing will grant your damage never fall off.
There is no point get less than 500dmg to stay weak in next updates.
I’m almost sure you’re thinking:
If I do 10k dmg, with slash debuff I will do 15k.
All I can say you’re heavly wrong.
i never have denied this fact, but the reality is not that, because simple as i have wrote in my last post, the problem is the defense of the mob, right now the defense is not high enough to surpass cleave, and even more we can say that 800 reduction of defense (best case scenario in the entire game) would be more or less the same as add 800 ATK on your character, where players like the doppel in the TOP DPS build, have for example 2,8 PA ATK, so 800 atk is far less than the 50% damage from cleave would give, so i the one who do not know what else tell you besides, go up a character to the end game, and see it by your self.
no, i’m not thinking that because i have a 255 fencer sword and 265 dragoon that have spear lunge and works similar as the cleave and like i have wrote in my previous topic with my seism the damage only goes up to 30-40% in true values and the dragoon i won’t log in now to give you a exact value of damage that spear lunge would add to my atks , but if you can not see the reality, please go up the character and test your self.
i’m done this talk, you all are coming with theories and so on, and it is EVERYTHING RIGHT in theory but once you go in the game and play the reality will show the difference simple because of the “REAL” value of defense from mobs right now, it is too low to make it better than the ones from cleave for example so there is not point to keep debating this, just check many of the multiples damage test that we have on the forum, like the ones with the DOPPEL and so on , or like i said my experience with my fencer that have the cleave debuff or like i have said, up a character to 250+ put equip on him and do the test to find otherwise, because no one have so far.
If your final damage is 10k, with Slash debuff won’t it become 15k? Or is it something else?
it won’t because we have multiples values in the damage formula of the game and they interact with each other in different ways .
but will come really close to 50%.
I know that. But just assume your final damage (after def, element, armor type, etc) to whatever mob is 10k, with Slash debuff your damage will increase up to 15k. Isn’t this the right one?
again no, because of how the damage is done.
We have 3 main coefficient in the damage formula and so on and the order of the math make it not be a real 50%, but like i said, it is really close.
So it’s just number variation. Somewhere approximately 50% is more than enough to me. I thought it was weird or something might be wrong without me noticing since the Slash debuff is multiplied as one of Tier 1,2 or 3 multiplier. Everything is fine now
But it is not just flat 800 damage increase though which is my entire point and I never said which debuff is better. Keep in mind this is just on a 292 def mob. Imagine the difference on a 800 armor mob/boss.
Composse
Coquille + composse
Spear lunge + composse
Coquille + spear lunge + composse
i also never said that was flat 800 increase,nor which is better as well , i said that it works as a 800 in your atk in the F1 window, if you analyze the formula you will see that the interaction of defense x atk would work like that once you remove defense and so on but then next we would have all the rest of the formula that will use theses 800 atk, it can go up far more than that, because we have attributes- weakness and so on.
and again i will write this again, the problem is not the debuff is the DEFENSE from the mob, right now we do not have mobs with enough defense to cause it to surpass cleave.
and the SS you have post already have more than enough proof that cleave is better, because it would increase the damage far more than those 2k once you reach that high of numbers, that is EXACTLY what i have been talking about and let’s not forget that you are also using spear lunge to boost pierce atk as well.
I have no else to tell you fam. Composse = 8551 ; composse + armor break (coquille) = 9766. 9766-8551 = 1215 damage difference each hit on a 292 defense mob. Your argument was towards 800 armor def mob so all I’m saying is the damage difference is huge.
if you read my posts in entirety you will see when i’m talking is not damage on the mob is ATK = damage = as the one who show on F1 window, go read everything again. and mainly the msg i just wrote, that i will copy here.
there is no point in taking just one little sentence of the entire argument and interpret like you want to interpret to proof anything, read my previous msg and try to understand how the formula works and what i was writing in my post since at that sentence i was calling damage = tooltip damage= damage on the f1 window, that is use to calculate the final damage on the skills, together with all the attributes weakness and so on.
and again go do those tests without spear lunge and you will see that the damage given by the skull swing is a lot lower than the one you are trying to show.
But you clearly stated 800 armor break equals 800 increase damage with that quote which was my entire point about it being wrong. Your statement was so direct that’s all.
The first and second screenshot were without spear lunge lol.
i never said it, you simple misunderstand the context of the sentence, and the post by its entirety. it is direct, is just that you have not understand what i have been calling as “damage” in that sentence so read my previous reply as well(the post above yours), the DAMAGE i’m talking about in that sentence, is the one that show on the f1 window, if you read more careful you will see that everything is there, there is not even a need for me to edit it, the information is there, is just that you could not associate since i was calling what normally the people would call “ATK” but i have use the word DAMAGE INSTEAD, but again the context is there and you can understand it, once you read . i’m sure if it is confuse to you sorry to say, but it is there and once you read everything you will see it.
the first and 2 SS we have a increase of only 1,2k, without spear lunge, and this is far lower than cleave would give.
and since you have spear lunge, just do the test yourself, one with coquile only and the other with spear lunge only, since the test would be similar as the one with skull swing and cleave.
I have char above 250(280 and another 260+) but unfortunately none has barb in their build.
Anyway for me there is only one path where hl2 is welcome: sw3>hl2
gladly to know, that there is more swordsman up there, i’m sure that you have some friends that have barb, you just need to test it, with your highlander skills to see.
after all i never have started the discussion of what build would be better, or what build would have more utility i was only saying damage wise.
