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About EXP - Quests vs Grinding - Feedback and Ideas

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#1

About XP - Quests vs Grinding

Hello there! I am a long time MMO player, and I’ve been testing Tree of Savior since day one of iCBT2. I’ve put in 117 hours so far, and I am enjoying it!

But, if I may, I would like to discuss some points that, in my opinion, can be fine tuned for a better overall experience.

I’ve played all kinds of MMOs, and I know there are always two extremes on leveling: Grinding monsters or Grinding quests. Those are the ‘basics’ way of leveling. Some games try to value one more than other. Nowadays, the norm is to value Quests over monsters, making you travel around the world and keep you occupied.

Other games are focused completely on Grinding monsters in areas. There were several different ways to do that. Be it mobbing half of the map and killing everything with an AoE spell, or just move-kill-move-kill.

Now, I ask: What is the focus on Tree of Savior? In my opinion, right now, the focus is on Quest Grinding. Which doesn’t necessarily is a bad thing, but… is it necessary?

Now, now, let me explain why I think that. First, I will use the actual XP gain as the parameter.

When questing, you get EXP Cards of varying levels. It starts with LVL 1, and I’ve completed until LVL 5.

At the 80s, you normally get the Lvl5 Card, which gives you: 24.571 Character EXP and 18.919 Class Exp. That’s a good chunk of XP!

Let’s compare it with the Lv2 Card, which you get at the ~20s: 2.886 Character EXP and 2.068 Class Exp. That’s a good increase, right? Something like a 10x increase.

But… let’s compare it with Monster Grinding, and we will get at the first problem.

Let’s use the “Grummer” as a parameter, as it’s a monster that you can find in an area with a good amount of them, for grinding. A Grummer gives you 220 Character EXP and 202 Class EXP, it has ~446 HP. He is a level 28 monster, so low level! Comparing with the card that you can get at these maps, it would be something like ~13 of these mobs for the same XP than a Lv2 Card. That seems fair to me.

Now, let’s compare with another mob: “Vikaras”, which is a level 85 monster in Royal Mausoleum. It has 2.229 HP, and gives… 471 Character EXP and 320 Class Exp. That means that you need to kill a total of 52 mobs to get the equivalent of the Exp Card… The cards are getting better with the time, while the mobs aren’t following the same curve. Even more so if we think that the damage scaling is not that big. It increases, but in a slow pacing (that’s not a good or bad thing, just a perk of the game.), So we’re getting a few more Exp, for a monster that increased its HP 5 times.

And this gets even more noticeable with a second point: Mob density. Killing 52 mobs aren’t that difficult. But FINDING 52 mobs is. It seems like some maps are quite underused because the densities aren’t there to maintain a small group killing monsters.

For me, as someone who actually enjoys the monster grinding leveling, I found the first levels (until rank3) very enjoyable, and I really liked the pacing. It was on par with quest leveling! So I had a choice. But when I get into the ~70s, things get quite different. There are few maps that I can see myself killing monsters efficiently, be it for the difficulty vs xp gained, or the mob density.

So… Should Monster Grinding be better than Quest Grinding? No, I don’t believe. But I do believe both should be normalized and equals!

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Now that I’ve explained my point of view… What would be good solutions?

In my opinion, there are 4 things to evalue when you’re trying to find and balance a good grinding spot.

1- Number of monsters in the area
2- The size of the map/area
3- Respawn timers
4- Mob XP

Of course, those are my opinions and they are not completely tested, but I think the game has all the tools to solve it. It’s just number working.

Let me list some of my ideas!

1) Respawn Timers - There are some areas that you do have a good number of monsters, but… they just take too much to respawn. Maybe tweaking this number would be a good start! How about working with “insta respawn” after killing the normal monsters?

2) Mob density - Mob density is another important part for a good spot. You need enough mobs to kill. Of course, different classes needs different kinds of density; So, I don’t mean “Let’s mob all the maps!”, something like… creating spots with more density. In my opinion,

3) Special mob numbers - We have one of the solutions to equal the Exp Gain of questing vs Grinding: The blue mobs! But how rare are they, really? Maybe working with their respawn rates would be a good way to give the boost needed to balance the XP cards with the areas.

Maybe, even, create a “bonus chance” of respawning, the more you kill the mobs in an area?

4) Stronger monster = Bigger rewards - There are some areas that we can see that: the Royal Mausoleum Storage is a good example, with the Earth Hallowventer mobs. The monsters are stronger, but they give you better rewards. Why not create more of these areas?

Why more areas? Because we have an overpopulation in some maps, while others are quite deserted. Why not try to balance this, and use every map as different hotspots? Choices, choices choices!

That’s it!

20 Likes
High Level Grinding Issues
#2

I completely agree. I’m currently stuck at lv 126 and I’ve run into a problem…all the quests in my level range have been exhausted. I’ve eaten all the tags, and I still don’t have enough to make up to lv 127 so I can continue the quests.

I decided to try to grind it out instead. I spent nearly 4 hours today grinding (as a piddly 1st circle Wugushi-quarrel shooter with very little AOE) for a total of 45%. That was grinding mobs in my level range. No matter where I went, they gave me 0.1% per kill…maybe 0.2% for those cheshire cat looking things that require me to either use Needle Blow or go through an entire rotation of skills to kill. It just isn’t fun or viable compared to doing quests.

#3

The exp curve ot the monster are really ridiculous, lvl 8x mob gives only twice the exp of an lvl 2x mob.
The main issue of this game are it’s number, whenever math and numbers are involved, the game is bad dealing with it.

#4

I made a post about Elite Zone in the suggestion thread, i have the exact same feedback as you, what do you think about elite zone?

#5

Hey! I’ve read your post, and I like your idea, but maybe they don’t even need to change that many things, right?

I think most of these problems could be solved with some tweaking in the numbers. For example? If you change the penalty for higher level mobs, you may create these areas already, right? Work with the Exp gain numbers of the mobs, and voilá… stronger areas with greater rewards!

Or maybe they could work with more regions like the Mausoleum, as I said; Earth Hallowventer gives a lot more experience than the other monsters of the same level, but they’re harder. Maybe creating more of these spots at different level ranges would be healthy.

1 Like
#6

Blue mobs seem incredibly rare in this test. I’ve only seen one so far.

I don’t mind grinding on mobs if there is something else I get out of it. If I’m looking for specific materials, or equipment I can grind for a long time, but when I need to just grind to fill my exp bar a few times it becomes a lot more tedious.

Perhaps supplement the blue mobs with a relatively low chance for mobs to drop exp cards?

1 Like
#7

“Elite Zones” are just a mend, a real solution would be redefining better the exp rewards from monsters.

Also there are the instance dungeons (wich i belive we needed more) with very strong monsters that gives more XP and mostly likely require party.

#8

You’re welcome, such post. How can i like this a milion times?
Love those ideas, and your feedback has background and real math comparison, it’s good enough. Hope IMC see it.

1 Like
#9

Thank you very much! We all want the game to be the best it can be, so let’s try to do our part with constructive criticism.

The game has a lot of good ideas, and all the tools to solve the problems that still exists

#10

I thought about the idea of dropping EXP Cards, but this can be solved with blue mobs, I think… And well, there are the other colored special mobs too, that gives extra loot.

You need to increase the rewards, be it XP, money or other things, to make it worth your time! I am not talking about it being better than questing, but be equal.

Again: Give the players the choice between farming monsters and doing quests. Both are good, choose what you like!

1 Like
#11

I don’t think that the blue mobs or droping exp cards are a good solution. They making leveling more random and this can be bad. The better solution would be a better experience curve for the mobs.

2 Likes
#12

I think a bit of randomness is good - and fun, because everyone likes to get a surprise!

But maybe not a complete random equation: “Pseudo Random Chance” is a good idea. Maybe create a system that everytime you kill X monsters, there is a chance to spawn a blue mob. This chance increases everytime you fail this check, and it resets when it spawns.

I do agree that a better XP curve helps, but maybe just working with mob intensity and mob respawn timers it would be enough to solve the problem too. If you can kill 3 monsters in the time you normally kill one, you didn’t need to increase it, right?

#13

I think giving mobs a low chance to drop EXP Cards is actually a great idea! More randomness makes grinding less tedious imo.

I also realize that we already have blue mobs which are kind of the same as mobs dropping EXP Cards. The difference is that hunting blue mobs encourages running through maps without killing anything, whereas if mobs dropped EXP Cards it would encourage grinding.

1 Like
#14

You are my hero! I was creating exact the same post, and I got some numbers around all exp breakpoints up to the max level of the beta, to be fair. This means levels 16, 46, 86, 136 and 186.

This brings to
You are totally right. Exp needed grows a lot. Exp given by cards grows a little slower, but fine as the game needs to get hard. Exp given by monsters grows much, MUCH slower, which leads to frustration. Also, kills diversity.

My suggestion
I personally suggest making monsters a little stronger (in HP/defenses mostly), and making the exp given by them grow MUCH faster.
What would we get by this?

  • Classes wouldn’t faceroll everything. They would need to choose better where is good for their kit to grind.
  • Single target builds would be allowed to search for high level monsters and be rewarded enough. AoE builds would search for groups of weaker monsters. Parties would be able to search for monsters around 10-15 levels above and get nice exp, or even hunt those semi-bosses that have low spawn. This all means DIVERSITY.
  • This would balance grinding and quests, we would have two options of how to level. Again, this has to do with diversity.
  • We would fix the spawn rate as a side effect. Right now we have some high density areas and some desert ones. Single target builds would look for the later.
  • Killing each monster would feel more rewarding. Killing semi-bosses would feel a challenge, a rewarding one too.

TLDR : Increase how EXP given by monsters grow. This brings diversity and makes the game more enjoyable, without having to change a lot of other things.

2 Likes
#15

Take all of my :heart:s DanielS!
I think you summarized the problems with the current EXP system quite well.

#16

Keep in mind there will be more grinding on release when xp rates are normal. I would love to see grinding xp increased slightly with quest xp reduced.

The current setup causes what I call “grind shock” which is basically you killing 10 mobs per quest that gives you a large chunk of xp followed by going to grind and getting 0.04% per mob (im getting about 0.1% atm with 3x rates).

I would rather get 0.1% (0.3% current rates) and alot less from quests so that I don’t feel like running out of quests is suddenly super bad.

Im also a person who loves grinding and hates themeparks so when someone like me gets this “grind shock” it kind of says a bit about just how big the disparity between questing and grinding is.

It’s also worth noting that mob respawn timers are super messed up at the moment. When the server first comes up from maintenance I have mobs spawning faster than I can kill them at a rate of 3x what im use to. You can notice this as the server will acasionally try and catch up causing a massive dump of monsters on your party.

#17

Normal monsters dropping exp card is a great ideia; But only if the chances are very slim, like 1% for normal/elite mobs, and 10% for bosses, also the cards must be untradable.

The biggest problem isn’t the lack of exp cards, it’s the amount of need to level your lv/class. Most quests consists in you killing monster or fending them off some point. If the curve on the monster exp grown, all the leveling system will become more pleasent.

If i’m lv 50, I will not receive exp penalty for monster from lv 40 to 60, if i’m not mistaken, So, in this 20 levels, I should be able to locate many areas that are suited for my character to grind. Something like Tenet Chapel for mages that can mob and do AoE, The vines for the archers that would shoot imobille monsters from afar, and a place that there are strong monsters that give alot of exp for the swordsmans to nuke them.

The biggest concern is the amount of exp that the monster give X the amount of exp you need to lv. That is the one thing that should be fixed, so that the rest is up to players to find and discover how to lv up.

#18

Maple Story has a simple solution to the density and respawn problem: the speed of respawn is proportional with the clear speed.

Meaning the faster you kill, the faster the monsters will respawn. It forces a respawn if the monsters count drop below a certain number in the spot. This solves all ks and low density problem.

I think we can apply it here

#19

I’m 100% with you on this. this gets really noticiable when you hit the mid 60s. enemies with the same lvl as you gives only 170-300 xp at best. not even bosses are woth because the fight is a chore and some of them will give less than 15% of xp. The mobs needs to have xp scalling the same way as the cards where it makes you keep hunting enemies that have the same level as you or are 3 level above, to feel rewarding. otherwise we’ll just go to lvl 20 areas and farm over there for the 200xp points per mob that will die in a single hit .
the max lvl 600, right? if things keeps going this way it can easily make you need to grind a whole month just for one level at late game.
the game don’t need to be have too much grinding but also not to be a “cake walk YOLOSOLOMASTER420” either.

#20

I love when someone posts something that is really a feedback.

I’m not saying this because I agree with your ideas, but because is a post without rant. Congratulations for being a nice player, and thanks for posting.

Ps.: You should send a ticket with these ideas.