A discussion on nerfing Linker

[_DrRM_]

"Psychokinos needed help, and got stumped. Psychic Pressure can only be held down for 10 seconds now, even though everything took it down in 2 seconds and it cooldown sucked a lot.

Fixed

People go Psychokino for the costume.

Fixed

[zhouyu47]

Haha. I’ll give you the second one

Reflect shield ( even after the strange patch that caused certain skills to be interrupted when they didn’t previously ) still lets you hold down psychic pressure. Any mob ( dungeon instance mobs included ) should die within a 10 second psychic pressure, and it’ll still deal a ton of damage to a boss, especially if you’re using it on an icewall or fireball ( or both, and then it’ll just explode ).

[_DrRM_]

Any low hp melee mob ( dungeon instance mobs included ) should die within a 10 second psychic pressure

there, let’s be honest… any ranged mob with high hp against a psycho will kick it ass…

if you tell me something like “I farm in Crystal Cave lot 2” or “man those Wendigo Shaman are so easy to kill on Nuoridin Falls” as a pure psycho…

I will kick you of a building… a really tall building :b

[nightrain_scy]

Why linker is good? Let’s structure this way

In every ARPG, we need a mobs grouper to make the team kill faster. In diablo3 it could be monk who also a tank.

In ToS, only linker c1-3 and cryo c3 would able do that job. However, linker c1-2 is the easiest to go and much lower cooldown with additional dmg%.

1. Is linker a must?
   Many peoples said you no need >1 linker in party, true. The statement also justified it is a must itself, and who hv it will guarantee a slot in party, who don’t hv it have risk to be discriminated by random player. If u play alone, better have it for best. If you play closely with friend, is ok you don’t need it. < This is the problem linker reliance created itself.

2. Is linker a must in a build?
   Lets see higher rank class, unless you choose elementalist, which cn sync with either wiz3, cryo2, pyro2 or link1 for lightning %/reliable prominence. The rest Necromancer and Sorcerer also only better with linker. Even full support either go linker+chrono or linker+thaum only.
   Not to mention Warlock and Featherfoot single target skill works better with linker.
   At same time, psyko hv no sync with any of them because of SP issue.
   This also 2nd problem linker reliance created.
   It neither support nor dps, linker is good for most builds.

Hence, how we should solve the problem?
It is really a big topic, we can say:

1. Linker is OP
   JP, 100% damage transfer.
   HK, reduce AoE defense ratio +50% magic dmg.
   Both of obtainable at c1 with little investment, they should gradually unleash the power until c3.

2. Other mage classes is too weak
   The main issue is the game rely on normal atk which mean higher skill CD. This has impacted mage class ultimately. Mage is a skill based class n should hv more frequent cast skills. Is it not skills are all bad, but the cd has limited the dps itself, this also reason why ppl choose linker to make every skill spent effectively rather than spam more skills.
   Hence mage cd need to adjust, make spr more important for sp management. Make mage rely more on dmg rather than Con to survive for wait CD. Better to focus few skills by max skill attr% than spam more different low level skills.

[Mirarara]

Many peoples said you no need >1 linker in party, true. The statement also justified it is a must itself, and who hv it will guarantee a slot in party, who don’t hv it have risk to be discriminated by random player. If u play alone, better have it for best. If you play closely with friend, is ok you don’t need it. < This is the problem linker reliance created itself.

Not really unless you are a Linker C2 and above. Linker C1 isn’t really that special compare to another pure DPS AOE wizard.

If neither support nor dps, linker is good for most builds.

You do realize most class is either support or dps right?

+50% magic dmg

This is 50% magic damage applied on cast, not a perma +50% magic damage during the duration. Also, Linker C1 is just equal to another class that can kill 5 monsters in 20 seconds.

Other mage classes is too weak

No, not really. They are either great support, great PVP character or great DPS at rank 6. I do agree that the support may need Linker to be effective, because there isn’t much support class before rank 3, but you generally won’t want to waste a rank in Linker unless you don’t have other class to choose from.

[Kyanni]

Try C3 Cryo and you won’t need Linker at all.
Try C3 Cryo + Sorc, and Sorc won’t need Linker at all

The fact is going Linker makes things easier for everyone at the lower levels, but it doesn’t mean that it’s a must have in the higher ranks
Also, sometimes it’s a matter of team composition.

[Defect]

For some reason the nerf threads are directed at a wizard class which is in no way overpowered, instead of being focused toward the classes that make Linkers look under-powered.

People need to look up the definition of overpowered and realize that something being good does not make it overpowered. That just because the C1 function of a Linker is to maim and subdue doesn’t mean that its further up circles which empower and fortify any less good. It’s a support class with offensive applications.

If you want to help the party do DPS, go Linker 1. If you want to help with DPS, stats and defenses, go C2/C3. If you want to be a DPS, do not take linker, since it is strictly worse for DPS than it is for support.

[dmhamilt]

Name me another class, anywhere in this game, that has an ability that scales damage by a %. Quickcast is the only one I can think of, and it is in a similar ‘must take’ situation.

That is why Joint penalty is too powerful. This game is a world of linear growth, except for random instances of exponential growth. Quickcast’s attribute is a similar instance, there have been many people on these forums claiming that every Wizard should get Quickcast, as it will be a massive dps boost to the higher tier, more powerful circles.

Either everything needs to scale well, or nothing should.

[nizidr]

Name me another class, anywhere in this game, that has an ability that scales damage by a %. Quickcast is the only one I can think of, and it is in a similar ‘must take’ situation.

Scout’s Perspective Distortion, Cleric’s Guardian Saint (reduces incoming damage by %) any many attributes in other skills (Lethargy for strike damage).

[lemaitre_dulotus]

Yeah, since Sorc C1’s summon now needs babysitting from the player, I’m wondering whether I’ll choose Cryo C3 or Linker C2… The two trees seem nice V_v

[Defect]

This thread exists under the assumption that linker is OP in some way, and there should be a place to talk about what a more balanced form would look like. Please do not refute this assumption here.

I refute this assumption here.

This game is a world of linear growth, except for random instances of exponential growth

I am sorry to break it to you, but Joint Penalty is not exponential, neither is Quickcast, Cloak, Meteor or any physical skill backed by 100% crit. What they are not, is additive; they are multiplicative.

That is why Joint penalty is too powerful

You obviously haven’t seen overpowered if Joint Penalty is where you’re hung up. Joint Penalty is more convenient than overpowered.

an ability that scales damage by a %.

Firstly, Joint Penalty does not scale damage, it scales DPS. Secondly, Joint Penalty merely changes the rules of how damage is applied thereby making all single target instances of damage AOE, and all AOE instances of damage two instances of AOE damage if, and only if, multiple targets affected by Joint Penalty are in the AOE. If perhaps the attributes were not only for electrical, earth and poison damage, I’d say that Joint Penalty is broken with attributes. Lastly, there are dozens of multipliers in this game which you label as random instances of exponential growth. Here are just a few…

Scout’s Cloak +50% physical damage on next skill.
Scout’s Split Arrow +100% damage on bouncing arrows.
Elementalist’s Meteor +300% damage.
Elementalist’s Electrocute +100% magic attack on frozen targets.
Wizards + 20% to 100% strike damage against lethargy targets.
Archer’s 2hbow attribute +100% damage to flying monsters.
Archer’s 1hbow attribute -25% physical defense to all targets.
Sadhu’s Astral Body Explosion +150% damage.

Either everything needs to scale well, or nothing should.

Viability of skills will remain if what I am told is true, that +100% Attribute is a two times multiplier of damage dealt (excluding some buffs) by a skill. Also, everything scales at about the same rate excluding physical classes who gain a rather generous boon of 1.5 times damage once they reach 100% critical chance, not including their critical attack.

Yeah, since Sorc C1’s summon now needs babysitting from the player, I’m wondering whether I’ll choose Cryo C3 or Linker C2… The two trees seem nice V_v

I think Sorcerers are still good despite losing some of their pet control until C2. It may have been done to prevent the Sorcerer + Necromancer combo,or just to make Sorcerer C2 look better. If I were to play a Sorcerer now, I’d go W1P1L1P2S2.

[dmhamilt]

Linear, Exponential, Additive, Multiplicative.

Imagine a graph, where Y is total damage and X is skill uses. You could also make X skill uses/second.
An auto attack is Attack * X. It makes a line that rises off into the distance. This is linear.
A skill like Multishot is SkillLevel * Attack * X. This graph is still linear, but rises much faster. Multishot is mutiplicative by Skill level. It would be best represented in a 3d graph with an axis of Z: skill level. The graph however, is still linear.

The formula for Lethargy, Quickcast and Joint Penalty is (1+(.2~1)or(.5)or(1))(the formulas of the damage of the skills used) * X. Or to write it a different way, 2 * (Attack * A + Attack * B + Attack * C…) * X. This graph rises faster and faster as you use more skills, and can basically reach whatever limit you desire. These skills are multiplicative by the dps of other skills. I call them Exponential because the formula is basically (constant * X) * X.

To say that a skill like Meteor is on the same scale is laughable. All that is is 4 * Attack * X * AoE.
Why are you even bringing up attack skills here? They aren’t a buff that effects the damage of other sources, they just hits harder than some other skills. Meteor is ‘basically’ the same single target damage as level 4 Multishot.
The only ones you should have mentioned are Quick cast, Lethargy, Perspective Distortion, Cloak and maybe Archer’s flying damage.
Even then, those all fall short of Joint penalty, as they are all specific.
Joint penalty deals at least 100% bonus damage to the linked monsters, no matter the damage type, and will stack with everything we have listed.

One thing you don’t seem to understand is that +100% on linked targets is a worst case scenario. The best case is where only a few of the linked monsters are hit, such as when playing with a Wugashi.
In a 5 link, that Wugashi’s normally single target damage is effectively +400%. In a 10 link it is +900%
Or hell, a Rogue. Be playing with a Rogue with the full backstab suite and let them hit 5 monsters for 100k.

Also, everything scales at about the same rate

This is an incredibly naive statement. Compare Multishot and Heavy Shot and think about what you have said.

[nizidr]

The formula for Lethargy, Quickcast and Joint Penalty is (1+(.2~1)or(.5)or(1))(the formulas of the damage of the skills used) * X. Or to write it a different way, 2 * (Attack * A + Attack * B + Attack * C…) * X. This graph rises faster and faster as you use more skills, and can basically reach whatever limit you desire. These skills are multiplicative by the dps of other skills. I call them Exponential because the formula is basically (constant * X) * X.

QuickCast, JP and other multipliers are just multipliers. They dont make skill damage scale exponentially. Yes, if you stack multipliers it’ll become a rather absurd amount of damage, but graphic is still linear constant*X, where X is Attack and constant is result of all multipliers.

Also many multipliers are counted additive to each other instead of multiplicative which greatly reduces their efficiency: JP’s +50% electrical attribute and +50% from electrical attack due to monster’s weakness will become +100% instead of 1.5*1.5=225%.

Even JP is just a x(number of linked targets) multiplier for single target skills and x2 for AoE for each target that is inside that AoE zone (if 2 or more targets are inside) and acts as an extention of AoE range for those that arent.

At no point it becomes an instance of constantXX as you claim it to be.

[dmhamilt]

Offshooting the math bits over here.

Math argument offshoot of Nerfing Linker Thread

Continuing the discussion from A discussion on nerfing Linker: QuickCast, JP and other multipliers are just multipliers. They dont make skill damage scale exponentially. Yes, if you stack multipliers it'll become a rather absurd amount of damage, but graphic is still linear constant*X, where X is Attack and constant is result of all multipliers. Also many multipliers are counted additive to each other instead of multiplicative which greatly reduces their efficiency: JP's +50% electrical attr…

Joint Penalty’s main effect is not additive with any other multiplier. It will add between 100% and 900% total damage to any skill targeting the linked monsters.

[ChojaHiragawa]

This thread exists under the assumption that linker is OP in some way, and there should be a place to talk about what a more balanced form would look like. Please do not refute this assumption here.

I didn’t know you could write blank posts. ( ・ω・）

[nizidr]

Joint Penalty’s main effect is not additive with any other multiplier. It will add between 100% and 900% total damage to any skill targeting the linked monsters.

Doesnt make it anything more than just multiplier that doesnt really work during bossfights in a class that doesnt have any damaging skills himself.
I’ll reiterate: moving HK to C2 is enough to make C1 linker MUCH less appealing.

[dmhamilt]

As I’ve pointed out multiple times:
If the boss summons anything, JP is one of the best ways to clear those out with little to no effort, and it will apply extra damage to the boss for as long as those things survive.

And alright, Hangman’s Knot is now a c2 skill.

How are the skills ordered now? C1 only has 11 skillpoints in it.

C1: Unlink, Joint Penalty, Physical Link

C2: Hangman’s Knot, Spiritual Chain

C3: Lifeline

[nizidr]

How are the skills ordered now? C1 only has 11 skillpoints in it.

Thats another problem of linker - lack of skills. Compare it to other classes that get 4 skills at C1 then 2 skills at C2 then 1-2 skills at C3.

[Mirarara]

Unless the boss summon has an extremely high hp, Linker’s JP can be equivalent to a skill that deal extra damage to boss equal to the highest hp of the summon. While this may change in the future, as for current there is many other classes that can deal more damage than that.

In grinding, JP is equivalent to killing 5 monsters every cast, and it took a rank for you to actually to do that. Having Linker C1 will just help your party to kill extra 5 monsters every JP cd, which there are many other classes that can do better than that, until the monsters became so strong that it couldn’t be killed that fast.

In PVP, yes JP seems strong as you can focus down on a target instead of all your enemy. But, JP is dispellable, and it’s unlikely that a party will actually stand close enough for your JP to works everytime, so Linker C1 is probably just equal to a few tick of extra damage to your enemy team.

My conclusion is that unless the game get much harder, Linker C1 isn’t really OP. Yes, Linker C1 has great potential to become OP depending on the enemy design, but as of current the extra damage dealt by JP can be outdone by selecting many other classes.

[dmhamilt]

Hasn’t it been confirmed that the game gets much harder in KOBT? That whole ‘200+ content requires party play’ thing they have going on. We had bits of that in the OP lizard archer style of monster.