Tree of Savior Forum

Math argument offshoot of Nerfing Linker Thread

Off-Topic
#1

Continuing the discussion from A discussion on nerfing Linker:

Tell me where you disagree:

  1. Total damage caused by one use of Joint Penalty is at least the combined damage of every skill used on the linked monsters.

  2. As I explained, a normal skill deals Attack * uses/second, or constant * X.

  3. Since Joint penalty replaces it’s damage with the damage of other skills, its damage formula is (otherAttack * Uses/second) * uses/second, or (constant * A) * B, which is effectively cX^2.

  4. When you multiply a linear graph by another linear graph it becomes exponential.

How would you model the damage caused by Joint Penalty?
How would you model buff skills in general?

A discussion on nerfing Linker
#2

Joint penalty is not linear, it’s a constant modifier, as it doubles your damage. So linear x constant = linear, it will not become exponential.

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#3

Fine. What does the dps formula look like then?

#4

that is false. Proper would be (otherAttack * Uses/second) + (otherAttack * Uses/second) from link.
it doesnt multiply amount of skill usages by the amount of skill usages. Thats where your formula goes wrong. How cant you understand that (for example lvl5) JP is x5 multiplier for single target skills and x2 multiplier for AoE to up to 5 targets.
2* 10 used AoE skills = 20 used AoE skills worth of damage (assuming all targets got into AoE). If we were to use your formula that would have been 10*10 used AoE skills which is complete bullcrap.

It WAS exponential before nerf (when each target got damage from each other linked target in AoE basically making it #targets^2 multiplier), now it doesnt.

#5

Because you need to include the fact that you need to use Joint penalty itself.
If you never use JP, you will never deal that bonus damage. That is what the second X is.

At X=0 there is no bonus damage, if X=1 there is damage.

X is defined as either uses or uses/second, if you want to include cooldown and casting time.

#6

Let me try to explain

  • Total damage caused by one use of Joint Penalty is at least the combined damage of every skill used on the linked monsters = TRUE
  • As I explained, a normal skill deals Attack * uses/second, or constant * X = TRUE
  • Since Joint penalty replaces it’s damage with the damage of other
    skills, its damage formula is (otherAttack * Uses/second) * uses/second,
    or (constant * A) * B, which is effectively cX^2 = FALSE

Now why is the last item is false. It’s about isolation of variable:

  • During the same duration of time, your normal + skill attack will deal the same amount of damage, regardless of whether you casted joint penalty or not. Thus their total damage amounts to A (in reality without casting joint penalty, your total damage might be a tiny bit higher due to the cast time of joint penalty itself)
  • When you casted joint penalty, it copies the A variable above, regardless of how A is composed, and added to the final value
  • The correct formula of total DPS should be (using how you calculated A): (otherAttack * uses/seconds) + (otherAttack * uses/seconds)

And thus the damage is still linear.

You might also notice that if the formula is used as in yours, without casting joint penalty your damage is 0

#7

You clearly dont understand how JP works. Or miss something very basic.

Lets take 2 players: if one casts a skill then another casts skill of same damage then their total damage would be 2x skilldamage (skilldamage+skilldamage), not skildamage^2 (skilldamage*skilldamage) that you are implying.

#8

Again, frame it in damage per use of Joint penalty.

is
(otherAttack * otheruses/seconds) + (otherAttack * otheruses/seconds)
And has no relation to JPuses/second. That is the damage, so you multiply it by uses/sec and bam, (constant * variable) * variable.

Really, plot a graph where X is uses, and Y is total damage. That’s how we do it for every other skill, that is how we should do it for Joint penalty.

#9

Single Target damage = DPS x Number of targets

Aoe damage = DPS x Number of targets x 2

Any skill modifiers (Quick Cast etc) will modify DPS by a constant.

Constant =! Linear =! Exponential

#10

This is why I’m not budging. If you wish to prove me wrong, do it like this.

#11
  1. (otherAttack * Uses/second) + (otherAttack * Uses/second) is a final formula that assumes that you have 100% (!) JP uptime on all monsters killed and all of those monsters were killed within otherattack’s AoE zone in that timeframe. Multiplying it by JPuses/second is redundant and totaly wrong.
  2. In a nutshell you are multiplying A and B and somehow get A^2.
  3. JPs dont stack so “damage per use of joint penalty” is a fallacy

[quote=“dmhamilt, post:10, topic:125098”]
This is why I’m not budging.
[/quote]If you like to be ignorant… have a nice day.

#12
  1. Why would you assume that Jp never expires? It isn’t a toggleable ability any more than flame ground is, whatever the duration.
  2. When A and B grow at similar rates and are around the same value I feel perfectly fine claiming something like AB=AA
  3. Jps don’t stack(?), but they do expire.
    Would you say that a ‘damage per Blessing’ is a fallacy, since they don’t stack? Blessing would follow a similar formula of (constant * otheruses) *uses
#13
  1. because if uptime is not 100% then overall formula would be (assuming totalDamage = otherAttack * Uses):
    totalDamage + totalDamageuptime% where totalDamageuptime% is bonus damage that you get from JP during timeframe when totalDamage was dealt. That number us further decreased because some targets may not be in AoE range.

For single target skills JP’s bonus damage is totalDamage*(number_of_linked_targets - 1) that you ADD to total damage assuming that ALL single target skills hit targets with JP.
2. Multiplying Apples with Oranges you wont get Apples^2.
3. false. Blessing follows its own mechanic and is a flat ADDITION at the end of damage formula, not a multiplier of any sort. So damage per Blessing is a fallacy too in a sense that you are trying to put into it.
You can say “MaximumPossibleDamagePerBlessing” which is constant: 170*180=30600 per buffed player IF and only IF he manages to use it up before it expires.

#14
  1. Alright, I haven’t been playing nice with unit cancellation, but I guess if you want to we can. dps has a per second portion that doesn’t really cancel out how I wrote it earlier. If you multiplied all those (otherdamage * uses per second) by the duration of Joint Penalty? Its not like casting a second JP will automatically destroy the first one. You can just cast a new one every 15 seconds on the teeming mass of infinity infinite hp monsters we’re using.
    So the formula is more like
  2. You say that like we have a more specific idea of what A and B are than ‘they are both fruit.’ A and B are different things, but are they so different that we can easily tell them apart?
  3. Damage per blessing is easy. Blessing deals (damage * (0 to max hits)) * (0 to max players affected) per cast.
    Say we have level 1 blessing: (15 * (0 to 10)) * (0 to 2) Per cast. Or between 0 and 300 damage, call it 150 like we do when we collapse physical damage ranges.
#15

it will. At least it doesnt multiply effect of JP.

#16

Cast it on different monsters? They might overwrite each other, but it isn’t a 1/player effect

#17

that will just increase the number of targets, not JP’s intensity.

#18

…just like casting a pure damage skill a second time.
Its like I’ve been trying to parallel Joint penalty to damage skills, and you’ve adamantly not been doing so.

#19

But JP isnt damage skill. It is force multiplier and should be treated as such.

[quote=“dmhamilt, post:18, topic:125098”]
…just like casting a pure damage skill a second time.
[/quote]If you are referencing Blessing then it would just refresh its duration and number of uses removing unused charges that buffed players had. In a nutshell it is a simple flat 170 damage buff with limited charges per player.

#20

How do you come to this?? The damage of JP is
(otherAttack * Uses/second) + (otherAttack * Uses/second), or (constant * A) * 2. It’s just double the damage, no exponential related.

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