Tree of Savior Forum

Why players aren't coming back

I can say that in this case:

Dandel have 80 Def
https://tos.neet.tv/npcs/401401

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But because the log-ratio is capped at 100%, so you are dealing 100% exactly of you patk which is 1676.

*We will see if other experts have better opinion, but we are trying to dig up the root causes why this game doesn’t sustain and peoples are leaving.
In my perspective, the damage progression and the way it progress are not interesting and not beginner friendly, most players feel they lack of time to progress and mostly useless in any content.

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And now?

For the discussion, i think damage is fine outside of pvp, nothing needs an incredible investment as now to be cleared.

I’m on stage 3 (no gems weap) on this one and i have no problem clearing all the game’s field content and challenge mode lvl5.

(i’m unbuffed in all the gifs)

Tama Def 241
https://tos.neet.tv/npcs/41448

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As i tried few formula, it seems LOG10((YourAtk/(TargetDef+1))^0.9+1) but capped at 1 is the case.

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Perfectly fits on tama even when i buff myself, 1888.

Edit: Nothing against you btw, this was actually the only good highlight of a trollish post.

I’ve actually noticed i do a little more damage than i should on archer (around 10%? i have no xbow equipped).
Btw, the test works on swordy at sau9 too, so this completely invalidates speculations made in other threads saying that the defense on tos.neet is wrong.

Also, if you consider that field monsters have lower defense than 2000 and the damage you get from blessing, the damage reduction is way stronger on single hit skills than auto’s/multis.

I’ve edited the latest finding in previous post.
My main point is still that, we need get rid of saalus/transcendance and chop that progression into different contents, avoid peoples into Saalus Trap and getting the game unsustainable. Make more peoples involve in content that need party together

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I don’t know exactly the number but archer has a passive that reduce enemy’s defense base on how many arrows hit on the target ( Max at 5 arrows). This passive is improved if you’re hackapel ( Max at 10 or 20 arrows i think). That why you feel your archer deal more damage than normal.

Edit: I think after new combat system, IMC did remove this passive.

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I don’t think this is the case?
I’ve tested with no one handed mastery: defense ignore attri, and with C gun attacks too.

My point in the thread ,whilst being flawed with the oversimplification i did and keep doing, remains that outside of incredibly high def content (that we basically don’t have), with R9, we can easily get to a point where “buying” more attack to clear things is actually trivial unless you want to achieve something strange and pointless like doing challenge mode 5 completely alone.

  • The game runs like a potato on old computers that should perfectly run the game.
  • We only have artificial difficulty given by HP/Defense/Attack.
  • Dungeons are trivial and have no interesting mechanics.
  • Lack of clarity in designs, the game tricks you into bad choices by omitting informations.
  • Lack of clarity in new user experience. Lack of a proper guidance for new players, they are alienated and set on a path that makes the game look completely linear, empty and quest based. They are placed in a world where other players want to be alone and partying only detracts from your loots and gains.
  • Other schizophrenic designs created by the mixture of surpassed underlying systems (band-aiding).
  • Pvp suckz.
  • Not enough “life” content as housing/weaponskins/communitygames.

Just give it time, they are fixing thing slowly, that’s why there’s no reason for IMC to advertise their game until they have the game in a better state. We can cry again when the pop get’s low enough.

For the gap thing, R9 gave us easy ways to get our base damage up by an easy 500-700, even with trashy equips you can get at least 150 bonus str/int.
Squire’s maint is another 200-300 bonus damage.
3 hats are 300ish damage. You can even move hats with your storage if you are poor and have more alts.
Every character has a base Atk and Matk of around 200.
Off-hand gems can give you raw attack damage to both hands.
Blessing.

There are lots of things equalizing the gap between low trans and high trans for most of the “content” available.

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A gap that shouldn’t exist in the first place.

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df69b19d590ca7a9aec416cd5ff8041a

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Imo the right class for you is the one you - A: Have the most fun with - and - B: Have planned and feel it’ll be useful.
How can I have fun, when pretty much 80% of the archer tree is broken? You know what the most popular builds are? Archer 2 > Quarrel Shooter 3 > Rogue 1 / Appraiser > Schwartzer Reiter 3 / Falconer 3 > Bullet Marker / Mergen 1 (Mergen mostly for being wallet friendly).

And that’s because the rest of the tree got IMC’ed. Ranger should have no down time to Steady Aim (5 minutes buff), Sapper = 3 ranks for only 1 good AOE skill (Broom Trap), Wugushi got nerfed, Fletcher got nerfed, Scout got nerfed (its signature attack: Split Arrow), Cannoneer and Musketeer are niches (one for AOE and one for bossing) - and Musketeer could have huge potential if he could keep some skills from lower ranks, like Ranger and QS attacks. Currently the most synergy comes from Wugushi and Sapper because of melee. The most popular Musk build is Archer 2 > QS 3 > Rogue / Scout > Musk. I would rethink of becoming a Scout again, if only I could use Flare Shot with a Musket (melee). The last Archer class, which has huge potential, is Hunter, which is crippled by bad pet AI. Premium pets like leaf penguin does sometimes solve the issue when you ride them, but you probably have no idea how annoying it gets to let my controller down, Alt + Up Arrow, get my controller back, so annoying that I let my pet where it is and just hunt without it.

Wizard tree, which was the most functional, got a boost and some nerf (because IMC), like breaking cryo > chrono builds (Frost Pillar gone, Chrono now require lots of SPR to do the same thing they currently do now). But my point is that Wizards, who were already the most OP in the game (I got a Cryo > Kino and I kill almost all bosses in 5 seconds if they don’t hit me, which is easy when I’m in party, but I got big cooldown of ice wall) got boosted, swordies and clerics also got some balancing, while archers will always be 2nd class citizens in TOS, except for the aforementioned QS, Falc, SR and BM. The whole tree needs a rebalance / boost.

I remember when Ranger 3 > Fletcher 3 > Mergen 1 used to be the meta and relatively cheap build to do, until after the first huge rebalance patch. Shortly after, Wugushi and Scouts gained track and were better than fletchers, but also got nerfed meanwhile while I quit the game. Split Arrow was a huge deal, the ricochet arrows were doing more than 1000% of the base damage and poisons were pretty monstrous. My poisons now are pretty bad, since I’m still a Wugushi 3 > Mergen 2.

Another huge problem with TOS, just as somebody else mentioned is that when most classes are broke and you already invested a lot of time in leveling them, you don’t have an easy way to “repair” them, like rank reset (I already bought a rank reset for my Sap3 > Falc 1 > Musk and made it Sap3 > Rougue 1 > Musk and I still regret it, should have taken something like Wugu or Hunter). There is no way to “test” classes and skills to make sure they are what you are looking for, there is no way you can reset your class and most important, it could have been avoided by having 10 or 20 character slots. And I already bought 1 character slot, because I had no idea that a hawk is considered a character - what a stupid engine. In other games, a pet would be an item that could be moved via team storage. I’ve been playing for 2 years (with half an year break) and I bought 9 months worth of Token, 1 character slot and 1 rank reset voucher, which brings my in-game spending to ~88 euros (which is a lot when living by yourself, being a college student and not getting money from nobody in a 2nd world ****hole in Easter Europe). I never spent more than 50 euros on any game. But I’d gladly spend more, if this game would be more enjoyable.

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Agreed. It’s really hard to enjoy the game when the only viable Archer builds required you to use a gun or play a bird. Wizard tree got a huge rebalance that buffed strong wizard classes to make them even stronger and helped underused ones, but IMC can’t even bother to look at more than 3 classes for their “huge intense” rework for archers. The game is no fun when all your favorite classes have no future.

I’m frankly never coming back to the game. The main reason is that despite good changes to class balances the game still has a big pay to win store attached to it with the Leticia cubes and Transcendance being the only thing that even matters.

This icon is everything. How many of these you have is how good your 1 character is.

The fact that it has 10 stages and takes literal years of real life grind is enough to put me off for life. I don’t have that kind of dedication to run a single instance over and over again.

There is nothing to do in the game but to grind for the next thing, but most of the time that grind is limited to X amount of runs per day. There’s no real solo activity that can lead to the same goal.

There’s only 1 path to take in TOS, and if miss the train (early rush, grind, guild, friends, server etc.) you’ll never catch up.

Then there’s the awful fact that AFK farming is a thing and if you can’t beat them you must join them. The joy in this game is very limited and anvilling that one weapon you like is just depressing, because you don’t know what is going to happen and if you get lucky it’s just a sign of relief, not a “OMG”.

Still, I’ve made TOS into a fun activity for myself. I quit it. Now I can come back and read patch notes with excitement. I’ll even open up the planner and make a few builds based around the new patch notes. Just as if I was still playing.

See, making character builds and leveling them up was one of the most fun activities for me. I didn’t mind leveling, questing and all that. It’s such a shame though that I can’t even get more character slots in this game without whipping out a wallet.

But luckily that’s all gone now. I can just look at all the videos and content people put out. I still haven’t seen any changes made to the transcendence system, so I have no real reason to come back and play this game. I would just be 8000 shards behind my peers and leveling up wouldn’t do anything. I can imagine what my first day of relogging would be:

  1. Eat a token
  2. Sort inventory
  3. Start leveling / questing
  4. Try to hurry for dungeon queues while people are online
  5. Repeat this for 10 characters
  6. Realize most of my characters builds don’t work anymore
  7. Have no ways of resetting them since I missed reset events
  8. Only option is 1 reset on the Steam DLC store
  9. Continue playing anyway only to realize I’m doing the same thing I did when I quit this game, grind saalus and HG until my mind breaks.
  10. Quit again after 2 months of “catching up”.
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same … :disappointed_relieved:

and ye your text is 100% true

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It’s funny cause when I log into ToS I have this feeling of depression taking over my body instantly. Cause I ■■■■■■■ love this game in a way I wish I didn’t.

I’ve been game hopping for a while these past few months. It’s been a hard time for us MMO lovers. But I gotta say. Some games I’ve played back in the day are so good now and ToS is still the same.

For instance. I’ve been playing WildStar again and it’s so much fun. SO MUCH to do even at level cap. I have so many meaningful and fun quests and dungeons and housing and my mount collection.

And I can even buy stuff from the cash shop without spending real money by just playing the game. Literally. They have this thing called OmniBits that you get through doing anything in the game. You can then use those to purchase stuff from the cash shop. Obviously it takes a bit of time but the stuff you buy is permanent and none of them are pay to win. It’s all cosmetics and mounts and pets and yadda yadda.

Then I play some Warframe. Another ■■■■■■■ amazing game. Different style but also lots to do. A bit grindy though but still fun as all hell.

I can’t log back into ToS and the only thing I can do is either brain damage myself doing ET a couple times with each character or the god damn 300 Dungeon or doing the ONLY thing that is actually fun right now which are the Challenge Modes. Then I go to the 340HG and that’s it. No progression was made. I probably just killed a ■■■■ ton of the same monsters and got some money and that’s it.

Can’t do this anymore. It ■■■■■■■ destroys me to see this game as it is.
As it was mentioned by @Billyboy the only thing that makes me want to see what’s going on in this game are the Balance Devblog updates that will hit the production environment in 2020. lol

I CAN’T DO THIS IMC! PLEASE HELP.

Meanwhile in WildStar… The game might not be as popular as it should due to some marketing mistakes and the first impression problems.
Community is as united as this one is.

Game was fixed and all the problems they had are now gone.
I’m having fun! At level cap completing 100% of the game’s story quests and side-quests is taking me forever but I enjoy every second! o-o

This is my third level cap character~
Sorry guys I know my post makes no sense. I just had to share my feels.

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I feel you bro. I’m just waiting for a good ToS clone to finally be free from Mr. Kim’s hands. I hope other companies see the wasted potential in ToS and how much people that still play ToS and those who left as potential costumers.

I just need a new MMORPG with cute graphics that gives me a Diablo feel and has deep build customization like ToS or PoE.

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SEA player that talks that way? Is he Filipino?

Most charas wont reach 5k + dmg this new content seems to be balanced around transcend 5 +11 or weapon +16 (350 primus or masinos) transcend 3

Just yesterday I broke trough 4 primus weapons trying to get at elast one +11 I am not even looking at extra stats on them anymore as they refine is so rng shitfest

edit unless you are in party with maxed out thaumaturge
but even 5k is on lower end in highest HG

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my characters:

  • QS3: deleted my falcon pet to make room for a cleric, need to reset anyways, waiting for archer buffs
  • Sorc: bored, don’t feel like playing, waiting for wiz changes
  • Catagoon: weak and long cd, used for farming, waiting for cata buffs
  • Cleric: newest of my characters, need to reset to try other builds

I guess it’s time to quit until revamps hit.

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We duoed sau10 challenge mode floor 5 today, trans 3 +11 plague doctor and untransed +8 315 weapon inquichaplain

Players like me and my friends aren’t coming back for the same reasons we left. Everything was about money. Everything was taken away from the players and hidden behind paywalls under the guise of “its for your own good”, “it’ll protect you from the bots and rmt”, “it’ll stop the rmt”. The tokens limit the economy by forcing players to pay up or be unable to make profits from other players. We weren’t allowed to trade with each other. Even long after they left, I lurked in the shadows for the removal of all these things, but instead they got worse: Pay to win greed boxes, still requiring tokens for what is normally free in any other MMO, limiting dungeon runs, market slots, shared stash… its ridiculous.

I was excited for the mechanics changes last year because one of my issues with the game was how poor Defensive stats were and how strong “additional damage” was in the game since the game was mostly flat damage yet still used multiplicative scaling (or for any single skill, multi hit skills were always stronger). I checked the stuff I had issues with and there were still there: Market, Storage, Tokens, Pay to Win. I reset many of my characters and left them in that state, and left the game again.

To my knowledge, not much has changed in a year and a half since my friends and I played and put effort into this game. It doesn’t look like it’ll ever change. Even if it did, I doubt I could convince my friends to return, as they don’t want to touch anything IMC has touched as far as hosting a server goes. Maybe is another company ends up hosting a server while IMC just designs the game in the background where the host maybe isn’t so money hungry that they’d let us have shared storage, friend trading, many character slots (especially since pets count as characters), an adequate number of market slots, and actually giving us personal markets back (which I don’t know if they returned that to us or not, but I highly doubt it). One of the few things I remember in the beta tests being that players could sell their own items or buy materials from other players directly from their character’s personal shop, but that was stripped to to force players to use a market and then subsequently buy tokens to use the market effectively.

Players aren’t coming back because IMC through bad practices gave TOS a bad name and no one wants to come back to something like this. For those of you who have endured as long as you have going through the muck, god bless. All the complaints back then were ignored, and here we are today as I expected back then.

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