Tree of Savior Forum

Why people do TBL?

I wouldn’t say that I have LoL syndrome, in which you blame everybody but yourself of getting demoted and losing, but after going from top 10 to top 500 or less I started to wonder why I ain’t having fun anymore.

I already know that Ausrine is way too OP and also I know that cleric class is the strongest one, you just need to check top 10 to see that out of this first 10 people, 6 are cleric related (mostly diev 3 - oracle).

But what makes me sad is watching people ragequitting (90% of cases rank 5 people), some that are AFK, or others that just play in an authist way.

Something must be done with people being AFK or related, I mean you can’t have any fun doing 1v5 like this:

You really have to specify what server you’re on and whether you’re talking about 5v5 or 2v2.

I say his because the top rankings are different on every server and the classes that do best differ from 2v2 to 5v5.

My argument would be not that Cleric is overpowered but that having a Cleric is extremely valuable for the survival of a team in 5v5, it keeps people alive in many games and thus wins more than others. If EVERY single team always had a Cleric in it then the Clerics wouldn’t be top of the leaderboards for 5v5 anymore, instead it would probably be the cryokino builds, because when a Cleric is in every single team then the next important influence on the batle is whether or not a team has good CCs or not.

The current meta for 5v5 is:

Healing/Survival - You can’t win if you can’t survive.
CCs - Stopping the enemy from doing anything makes them vulnerable.
DPS - Damage is the least valuable tool because you can have 5 weak damagers all attacking a target at the same time anyway.

In contrast to this, Clerics don’t do very well in 2v2 in my opinion. They lack the damage they need to do in order to support their team mate. If their teammate dies they become mostly useless.

The 2v2 meta is:

DPS - 1 shot kill builds are ruling. Especially Canonneer and Broadhead. In 2v2 the quicker you reduce the threat of the other team by 50% in 1 attack.
CCs - CC remains extremely strong as long as they can survive against attacks long enough to use them. If they can survive vs the enemy damage to drop their CCs successfully then they win.
Healing/Survival - This doesn’t work well in 2v2 because in order to have these skills they trade a lot of damage. They get CCd and die anyway. They do not have enough teammates to hide behind to stop themselves from getting CCd.

Additionally to the above 2 metas there’s a secondary minor meta that greatly benefits both 2v2 and 5v5 - Classes that have skills that can save teammates stuck in CCs. This includes skills like Full Draw, ground AoEs and so on.

The game needs balancing so that CCs are less frustrating for players (stop acting like 1 shot kill skills), so that 1 shot kill builds are no longer a thing because it isn’t fun to get hit by them, and so that things like Cleric become either less important to teams scoring a victory or become something that is always in every single team.

Frustration is the problem with TBL. Mechanics that cause frustration should be reworked to become no longer frustrating. They should not be made useless, but they should not make people as upset as they currently do.

I keep saying this everywhere with regards to PVP - People play the game for FUN, if people aren’t having fun even when they’re losing then there is something wrong. People should not be blaming the game mechanics for their losses. It’s fine when they blame each other, that’s the sign that they believe the mechanics are balanced and that they could have won if people played differently.

I don’t know whether this information is getting through to IMC though. Sometimes it seems like they have a weird idea of “fun” when they want people to camp worldbosses for 4 hours or introduce so much 1 shot kill content.

Half the forum won’t read this post because it’s too long.

EDIT: It’s also completely inappropriate to call people autistic as an insult. Half the constructive forum members probably stopped reading the topic when they got to that part of your post.

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Why people do TBL?

(90% of cases rank 5 people), some that are AFK, or others that just play in an authist way.

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Even if this theme is about to do something with people being AFK (for example earning points on non-ranked games), I’ll discuss a bit, by the way I’m in Fedimian server.

My argument is that the team with most clerics always win, they deal damage, they have survivability, some of them makes the whole team invencible, and almost each one offers CC inmunity.

Also checking the top 10 and noticing that more than 50% of the first 10 best players are cleric class means a lot, which is better if out of the first 5 people 4 are clerics.

You comment that the game needs balancement on CC, but hey, Cleric C2, Oracle or PD offers the whole counter set for CC, what can you do against ausrine or against that CC inmunity? Nothing lol

Don’t know about 2v2 because I usually do 5v5.

If I have to keep complaining invisibility system is so weird in this game since you can get OS from far away by someone who you haven’t even seen. Also sharing cloaking with link is really weirdo. But even if you have all of that ready in your team, pray to not be matched against Diev 3- oracle/pd.

Lemme upload my first top 10 players so you can check that I’m not lying about cleric superiority in tbl.

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It’s not the class being overpowered that makes them win though, it’s just the circumstances of 5v5 making survivability so strong.

Because so much can kill so easily - getting CCd, quick damage builds, etc. The team that can survive the best wins.

The clerics win the most because they provide the survivability. They can completely guarantee that they and their team have survivability in every single game.

There are lots of ways ausrine can be fixed. The arena could be bigger, but that would give teams with haste the advantage to just run away and regen CDs. Or ausrine could only function within a certain range of the statue. Or ausrine statues could take longer to use by players providing the other team with the time they need to rush the opponens before they’ve successfully started invincibility.

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Clerics should be distributed equally in teams
^this is the first and easy step to balance in TBL.
Bigger map for 5v5 is necessary too

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I play a cleric and I really dont think that Clerics are overpowered in TBL i got my backside handed to me from so many CC builds I cant even count it. I was on the end of the ranking eventhough I got ausrine.
Not sure how often I wanted to strangel Ingel or Esia or Bacca or Klach or whomever because they CCed me to death.

The main problems, like Ingel said is the fact that sometimes there are teams with 2 Clerics and the other Team got none, if that would be fixed every team got the same survivability.

Bigger Arena could be a problem for melee builds though, it would greatly benefit all ranged builds.

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Since rankings are messed up anyways, I think people are just doing it for the hope of someday getting the Panda (like me). :joy_cat: It’s still fun though even if you get nothing from it (ie. after getting to the 50-points daily limit).

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The problem with a bigger map is that you give a huge amount of power to classes with high speed.

For example, catagoon will become EXTREMELY powerful with a bigger map. If they could safely run away from the enemy team then they could use pain barrier, do a Rush attack, run away, wait for their CDs to come back and then repeat.

Let’s take a situation with any archer/falconer vs catagoon. In the current map an archer loses to catagoon if they don’t have falconer because they have no way to escape against spin-to-win pain barrier. An archer must use a falconer to use hanging shot as a safe escape until the swordsman runs out of their pain barrier, once pain barrier is over then the archer can apply Full Draw to root them and deal safe damage.

If the opponent can run away to get back pain barrier then you have made catagoon much much stronger. This would happen just by increasing the map size.

The same thing would also happen with any team that had a chrono with Haste. The entire team would be able to run to get back the CDs of their most needed moves instead of fighting.

The current map size creates a good balance where running away does not work. I think increasing the map size would fix the ausrine problem by making it run out before they reach the enemy team if they use it at the start BUT it would create other problems with high movement speed mechanics.

Again - Clerics aren’t overpowered, they just happen to be a support class that provides survivability which is hugely important in 5v5. This is why they top rankings so much in 5v5 but don’t usually do great in 2v2.

IMC’s designers probably don’t have the time to listen to all the different forums from itos indotos jtos, ktos and so on. I really hope that this kind of meta is what is being discussed on the ktos forums too because I think it’s the only place that they really have the time listen to. I think it’s unlikely that any in-depth and detailed information gets through to them clearly from our @moderators. It’s probably only simple stuff, whereas it is understanding this kind of information that would greatly improve upon the current state of BL pvp.

GvG is an entirely different problem and they desperately need to copy mobas with their safezones for respawns so that teams can safely group together before initiating a counter-attack to defend their towers.

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Oooi Chrno is that you?

Looks like you were quite unlucky as well this week ;D

Let me do it for you. A lot of ppl on the arena are autists or even squirtles.

I don’t think actual autists play ToS anyway. And if they do, I guess they will still perform better than most players on the arena.

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You want TBL rating analytics?

One of the reasons I’ve lost interest in TBL at some point (even tho I was ranked high because birds in the sky always fly high) is because with those new TBL times, I could only play like 3-4 TBL hours per week, and that means most of the time i will have to play with rank 5’s who are there for points and play miserably. Because in my experience, you only get high rating if you either get lucky at the very start of the week (while rankings are not determined yet), or you play long enough for your winrate to start playing for you.

And tbh, TBL is only entertaining when you are high-ranked and play with other high-ranked players.

So, because my schedule is 2/2 and the time is very specific, I can’t really hope to get lucky at the start of the week, because I don’t choose when my week starts. And then I also don’t get enough tries to let my winrate do the thing.

Couple all that with 7-10 FPS, animation stucks and such nicknames like BlackanD, Doppler, CHEAPSHOT, Mooo, MoonProject and other… extremely gifted individuals, and you get the picture.

PS. Of course there is also a question of whether or not your build is gamechanging enough.

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Daily rewards for PvP participation are cancer. It makes rank5 and people who have no intention of actually winning to queue up and ruin games. It’s ridiculous and needs to go away.

Then you have the actual balance issues. Ausrine, Joint Penalty, Restrain+Rush and Raise are clearly too strong for PvP. If JP worked as intended(and it stopped breaking back every patch after they fix it), Ausrine’s buff duration, Rush’s duration, and Raise’s duration and size were reduced, things would be so much better.

The other issue are chain-CCs. That you can freeze someone that’s frozen over and over again, resetting the freeze into its full duration is beyond retarded. Once you get out of a CC state, such as Freeze or Stun, you should be immune to that CC effect for a few moments, at the very least.

There are other minor issues that need to be balanced, such as the never ending duration on Stone Curse. Last, but not least, they need to fix the bugs. Getting stuck at the end of a Cata’s Impale for an entire match isn’t fun, and neither it is to get perma-stuck because of Snow Rolling. The constant desync issues I brought up on my other topic are a major issue as well.

The future isn’t looking good, either. All those R8 classes with ridiculous base damage for skills will turn the game into an instant 1-hit KO fest.

it’s not like Cleric class is OP - it’s just TBL ranking goes all about score (more wins than loses) - so having cleric means your team have adventage (more survival). It’s not like Cleric class is OP but it’s more likely to have winning team as other classes can end up in team without healer (more likely to lose to team with healer).

@sttr413 is MoonProject that bad? He was in our guild but got kicked due to lack of activity :wink: Im sorry he made your gaming experience sad. Moo and Cheapshot…well :wink:

Its true that a team with Cleric has more survivability, but good CC kinda trumps Clerics.

@CrossSleet Yeah MoonProject is that bad and hey Cheapshot was in our Guild and he is a no Con Build so yeah he is that bad^^

Why didn’t anyone mention Atoni? xD

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Nah, having 1 cleric is always better than having 0 clerics.

Cleric is definitely not OP, but the team composition is just unfair. Sometimes you get team like 3 swordmen vs 2 cryo-kino, or 0 clerics vs 2 clerics

If they can design TBL to use a set role/formation then people fill up, it would be better.

Can we all push this change to GM’s please?
@STAFF_John @STAFF_Max @STAFF_Ines @STAFF_Ethan @STAFF_Amy

It will make TBL much less frustrating for non-cleric cl@sses

Yeah, never said its good to not have a cleric in the team :slight_smile:

But a team with a good CC build has the same chance to win, when not even slightly higher then the team with a cleric.

I think the 2 biggest factors in every team are CC and heal, and even then it kind of depends what kind of Cleric build.

Now I got this picture in my head of GMs handing out Clerics oO
"Oh you dont have one? here you can have this cleric puppy…"

I’m just a tool… :frowning:

Atoni the fabulous, who sets a Meteor skillgem into a Crossbow. No kidding.

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