Tree of Savior Forum

What's up with pass-less chrono nowadays?

Class and Rank Wizard
#1

I know it cost 2k per cast, but in a party it can affect 5 people so its benefits outweigh cost for sure.
DPS class offers damage. In the same way support class should offer support. Maybe except shop class but I rarely see them PVE anyway. Why can’t they contribute to party given gear cost for support is already lower than dps char. Did they just take chrono 3 circle just for quicken and haste?

And so, what content where most chrono actually use pass? Only raid, ET and Velcoffer? Because I rarely see them use it in challenge mode regardless of low or high stage. Not a chance in 300 dungeon and saalus.

I apologize in advance for chrono players who utilize pass properly. I just have seen too many selfish people come across.

#2

I second this too.

I ask pt members when they want me to pass, especially dpsers, but most of the time they tell me to cast it when off cooldown.

It seems a bit too cumbersome to micromanage, But if I can see a pt member finish a full rotation of his dps skills, then cast pass.

#3

Just curious, is chronomancer pass cost (2k silver) significantly higher than other classes? The thing about using money to cast pass is that if you look at the bigger picture, yes the benefit outweigh the cost from the silver you can earn from using them in regular content such as dungeons and cm. However, chronomancer don’t look at the bigger picture as people often feel the pain of losing money at that exact moment they cast the skill, something like loss aversion. For instance, would you spend additional dollar to take a bus home to save 5min of walking or walk to save the 5 min. Same case here, many would forgo maybe an extra 30 sec or 1min of time required to clear the content thab fork out 2k silver.

Maybe forcing chrono to get SPR so that they cannot go full con seems fair. Furthermore that SPR investment is a sunk cost that you already have to forfeit in order to play this character, but for pass every single time you press that skill you feel the pain of losing 2k silver. What I feel they should do is make it cost less let’s say 500 silver?

2k might seem little from an outsider but casting 2k let’s say 4-5 times every 300 dungeon is a lot. Other classes like Onmyoji have no choice but to spend paper dolls, which are quite cheap. Thaumaturge buffs are so much cheaper as well. For me, while I’m playing my onmyoji sub, casting buffs and using skills don’t affect me because I don’t have a choice here, and the cost is extremely low as well. Compare this to chronomancer whereby you have a choice to save 2k 2k 2k 2k by saving pass, the usage of that particular skill drops significantly.

#4

It’s a big loss when you don’t get anything in return (like a failed velcoffer/ET)

but if you succeed, I don’t see much of a problem, all worth.

Chrono population really died down with 2k mats

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#5

The SPR change was okay. You can still have decent HP with not very expensive gear.

2k is not that bad too, but it would be nice if IMC would lower it to maybe 1k?

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#6

I agree that 2k is little too much. But still worth it if chrono focus casting pass at crucial moment and not spam it blindly. It is better than totally abandon pass after all.
My statement about casting pass in 300 dungeon may be misleading. Rough threshold: using pass around CM stage 3 and harder content is reasonable for me.

#7

Hell, I already find it amusing when ordered to summon the cat by DPS (2,000 per Spellbook, 5 minute buff, SP Recov). Why don’t you all just pay me 500 each and maybe I will? Or maybe just go buy some ■■■■■■■ SP pots like you’re supposed to.

Point being, don’t expect anything beyond the bare minimum from a public party and its members. There’s no obligation to use costly skills at the demand of others. You won’t see pass used anywhere beyond the locations listed by OP, because that’s where the reward matters to them and where they’re ultimately necessary - well, unless you’re a whale with RMT’d silver.

As for CM? That depends on how quick the party is dealing with the stages. You shouldn’t need it until 5 and up unless the group is in some trouble.

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#8

Well, but you do expect the DPS builds in the party (like ElemLock) to spend a lot of silver on Weapon and Attributes, right? :hey:

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#9

But the number of times you spend money on weapons and attribute is much less than the number of times you spend casting a skill. It’s like let’s say you will feel a one off pain of spending a large sum on a car, compared to paying a few hundred of dollars everyone for car maintenance or car repairs. Everytime you spend money to cast pass you experience loss aversion just like how you lose hundreds of dollars everytime you car gets into an accident or require maintenance, and you would do what you can to minimise that.

#10

I think they went too overboard with the changes to Chrono skills. Reducing Pass reagent costs to 500 silver would be reasonable. Chronomancer became very expensive compared to other support classes (cough Thaumaturge cough), since the reagent cost is high. It’s even worse because Chrono buffs don’t last 5min and Pass has 50s CD, so you have to cast those skills frequently.

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#11

And?
If i dont spend a lot on my DPS, its maybe 60m in Attri and another 40m for Weapon.
How many pass or cat casts is that?

Hell, I already find it amusing when ordered to be ‘strong’ by supports . Why don’t you all just pay me 500 each and maybe I will?

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#12

So let’s say you spend 100k on a car, and it costs 200 for maintenance. Every maintenance is 0.2% of the initial car cost. For chronomancer, every dungeon casting 5 pass = 2k x 5, having to do 3 dungeons a day that is a total of 30k. That when weighed against your 100mil spent on attribute is 0.03%. That multiplied by 7 days is 0.21% (close to the car example).

Now, which pain would be more obvious in this case? The initial amount that you spent on the car which is a one off payment that you settle and is done and over with, or a constant variable cost of car maintenance that you are reminded that you need to do every once in a while.

Same logic here, how does the pain of spending 100mil on weapon and attribute that you get to use in the long run, compare to the pain of casting pass every 50 sec for 3 dungeons 7 times a week. In fact, we can extend this to many weeks and months of playtime. Everytime you press a button to cast pass, you are reminded that “hey dude, by pressing this, you are losing 2k silver EVERYTIME”.

Making the cost of pass to lets say 500 silver would be much less painful. Furthermore, chronomancer’s buffs lasts shorter than thaumaturge buffs. This is why many people change to thaumaturge support because it is much cheaper. Not only that, you don’t even need to constantly keep a check on when is the proper time to use pass.

#13

How about

I dont care about pass/cat in easy sh’t like dungeons or saalus. But use them in cm5-7 or velcoffer or even ET if you still do that. Lower cost of them would also be good. Just dont be a ret’rded cheap assh’le.

#14

And you really think these support characters don’t have DPS builds of their own that need tending to?

I like this one. Paying for attributes.
It’s like you’re not even playing the game.
Did you miss the millions not leaving the economy at the moment thanks to the free rainbow ride? Don’t even need team levels, just remake new characters and keep jumping away from the silver sink.

By the way, that’s 50,000 casts. About a month or two of constant play.

#15

I have a geared DPS and some ‘geared’ supports, so do people i play with/in-my-guild. We dont mind to use pass or cats.

Nobody says you have to spam that in 300dung (why even do that dung) but the sp recover is good in all cm. And pass can be worth in cm5-7 and is worth it ET/Vecoffer/highGuildraids/maybe330raid

edit:
as i wrote, that example of 100m on a dps char is not even much, can easy be a lot more. some 2k will not get you broke.

#16

And so to quote TS,

“And so, what content where most chrono actually use pass? Only raid, ET and Velcoffer? Because I rarely see them use it in challenge mode regardless of low or high stage. Not a chance in 300 dungeon and saalus.”

So obviously I’m saying that people are given a choice whether they want to use pass in non hardcore content. Obviously they will use pass in higher meta content such as ET and Velcoffer. So yes I’m glad that you agree with me.

You are not going to go for maintenance for your car every month, rather once every few months. Same analogy, you won’t spam pass in content that does not require it, or content that can be easily finished within a few minutes. Spamming pass in those easier content is not worth it in the eyes of chronomancer.

#17

As long as the Chronomancer also has damage on his build, I don’t mind him not using Pass at all.
Pass is just an extra boost (and not even useful for me as most of my damage skills only have low-medium CD time).

It’s also hard to coordinate without proper communication (e.g. via Discord/Team Speak/Raid Call), so I understand people not wanting to sink their money for minimal benefits.

No. It’s still not feasible. I feel sorry for whoever played Chronomancer. I once tried the Class and I was taken aback because it was pointless to cast pass in more than just one instance.
How is the guy playing the Chronomancer supposed to know every single skill& skill animation to know when to Pass efficiently?
It’s still random “Pass” after all, even in Challenge Mode Stage 3+. Best case is if he uses Pass on his own merit (e.g. to be able to cast another Ultimate Dimension/Micro Dimension).

I feel sorry for every Chronomancer player who already offers Stop, Haste & Quicken from his funds and still is expected to cast Pass on behalf of others.

This discussion reminds me of someone going to challenge mode with me, having crap equipment and being a damn auto-attacker who wanted to teach me how I’d have to place my Heals, where to put my zombies and how to use my Gevurah/Double Chance.

I basically dealt 60-80% of the damage and carried the run and yet he dared to pull off a sermon-like lecture.
As if it would be bad if my zombies collected my Heals or as if he’d make use of my Double Chance/Gevurah with his crappy auto-attacks.
It’s not as if I joined the party as a requested “Healer” on that occasion.

And if I use Heal, I mostly use it offensively (attribute level 100, level 16) since it can kill monsters en mass.
I rarely hear anyone complain about that. If there are tiles left-over, they’re in most cases not even utilized by team members as they are concentrating on their health by avoiding damage actively and using potions.

Fact is, at certain stages of equipment you simply no longer require Heal, even on stage 5 of Challenge Mode.

Those people judging other Classes performance should just go and play them themselves if they think they’d do a better job. Yet they play Archers/Swordsmen/attack-build Wizards and complain without end.

I don’t really expect anything from anyone other than not interfering with my gameplay or making me miserable.
TOS simply isn’t that kind of co-operative game in the first place, so people build and play as they want to.

And, by the way, the one expecting the high investment is IMC, not the players, by enforcing the HP- & defence-sponge monster meta on difficult content.

Those with pure damage builds brought it upon themselves that they need to invest more to be more effective. No-one else can be held accountable for their choice to run with 20+ damage skills.
Even within the Archer and Swordsman tree, there are “supportive”/utility options that can be chosen instead of more attack skills/damage with every single Rank.

Also, isn’t this the natural progression ingame? You get silver and attribute points here and there, so you are naturally trying to improve weapon + attributes.

Otherwise, there’s no point playing an attacker build in the first place.
You drove the build into the corner yourself and then expect sympathy for having to spend time on weapon and attributes…

But back on Pass:

Let’s think of it the other way around -

Maybe your damage/support/utility is not worth the 2k for Pass?

#18

Well, you actually right.
I’ll just pass only when do ET/Velcoffer/CM 4+/Raid.
Where else should we use pass?
It’s not very expensive but it does have effect on people way of thinking.

#19

As has been said a few dozen times, it’s really only useful in the real end game content. By the time you reach that point, the cost isn’t as significant.

300 and Saalus are best done by splitting up. CM is debatable, but most public parties learn work without it.

Unless you specifically ask for it, you’re probably not going to get it.

#20

That’s why I say “rough”. It heavily depends on party overall performance. I noticed most CM party post-transcendence patch is relatively stronger so I would up that to stage 4 or 5 average.

No need to be that perfect. Just after party member already used some skill (e.g. ~15 sec after mobs spawn is good enough). Also when mobs dies much slower or even help when party’s health is low, assumable that heal is on cooldown.

When I play falconer, I can always keep aiming up and use circling, peasant off CD. Even harder class, wiz2-link3-thau3-rc. I can even use lifeline often, keep swell buffs boosted and share rune of protection.
I have tried chrono during wiz rebalance and it is significantly easier. I don’t see problem using pass here.

If a chrono can solo carry it won’t be any problem. Just that the player has to invest heavily into equips yet make a big fuss about 2k pass?

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