Tree of Savior Forum

What happened to Tos? Re:build destroys the innovation

Hi there,
I have played ToS a while ago and wanted to return now. But then i had to find out that they changed the class system so badly. I am really upset about that. The original system was so fascinating and innovative. I loved to plan builds and work my way up there to the advanced classes. And the possibilities were like endless. And now? At least you can still combine three classes but it lacks so much innovation as you can just pick any class and that you cannot switch inbetween.
Choosing a class every 15 class level was so much entertaining and great for people that love to develop nice builds. This decision makes me so sad. I can only imagine that they did it for casual players to make it easier. But is this game really for casual gamers? And are casual gamers the people who spend real money on a game? I dont think so.
Also that you cannot distribute your stat points anymore? Why? Why are all game designers deciding to take away as much as decisions from the player as possible?

Sry for the rant but i am very disappointed.



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I agree that the class system back then was a unique characteristic in this game I enjoyed it very much as well but the class system now isn’t bad maybe just something to get use to. As for the stats, I didn’t mind putting them up myself but the stat growth ratio (which determines how your stats grow now) brings back that uniqueness to the game. The game is definitely different now but not less.

They simplified it pretty much because it was a noob trap, while it certainly was “innovative” in a certain way it was also very overwhelming and confusing for new players, who would often end up with the infamous “rainbow build”

And since pretty much all the “meta” builds (the ones that were effective) would take at least 2 3-circle classes and some fillers, some even took 3 3-circle classes, Re:Build pretty much makes this a lot less confusing for new players since classes come with their 3-circle variant now

Also, in Re:build the classes are balanced on their own, rather than being balanced in a progression system, meaning that each class is able to stand and function on its own (for the most part) whereas before a Rank 8 class was always going to be stronger than a Rank 3 class because of how the progression system worked

And while i agree that they took away some of the creativity and combinations in builds, it was definitely for the better, and even then, Re:Build still allows for some interesting builds and creativity, specially with the introduction of the auto-swap mechanic, like having, say, a Warlock - Shadowmancer - Featherfoot, all of them with a 3-circle variant, something that was not possible before

I’d say this was a pretty positive change overall, but i do get where you’re coming from, just give it some time, try some builds and you’ll get used to it, its pretty difficult to make a “useless” build in Re:build, so i guess thats a plus lol


The idea of Re:build was making easier to build up your character and making builds more variable reducing the meta concentration.
They kinda got near both things, but because balance changes takes like 3 months each and they are really, really, REALLY scared to touch op classes now we will have another damage revamp so everyone will be buffed to a certain degree. In other words, rebuild tried to balance horizontally every single class, but because of particular mechanics some classes got insanely ahead making really hard to keep the balance in check. Now they will buff the other classes and change the overpower ones to make easier to balance(probably).

About the class system its less oppressive on new players in my opinion was a good change of pace. As a plus now you can reset your class without any reset event.

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Thanks for the replies.
I can understand the pro arguments you said but in general i mostly see a decrease of possibilities. I mean, if someone wants to have a rainbow character, let them have it. I dont like restrictions that are not necessary.

I guess i will still give it a try as you are right that the system is not totally bad, just worse than before.

Can you influence the stat growth ratio?

Each class has its own stat growth, you can see it in the advancement tab for each class, tho im not sure how does the final formula with the 3 classes works, you can also get some stat points through Zemyna statues and some quests, but these are not so important now since you get so many stats from levels and equipment now, but at least you can choose where to put those

The problem with the old class system was that it could never be balanced. A low rank class that is focused on damage dealing skills (like Pyromancer) would never be viable compared to taking a class that has utility/CC/buffs, because most of your damage will always come from high rank classes.


It’s not like we had “limitless” options, it ended up at metas just as it does now
Yeah we lose the 1 circle wonder classes or full WIS support wizard classes that were good at farming as well due to the bonuses from Thauma

Also, the noobtrap wouldn’t be a problem if ToS gave more freedom to customize your build as it (kinda) does now with easier class resets (i’d love class skill resets instead full resets as well)

And since we mentioned the noobtrap… WHY DOES IT STILL REQUIRE A CHARACTER SLOT TO GET A ■■■■■■■ PET ??? THAT’S RETARDED


…because the pet is a member of your family?
About the topic, I liked the change, but they could have done this a lot better. Like truly rework each class to be sure there are no major balance issues, like BM-Assassin-linker being a monster in almost all PVP scenarios.
And being able to only choose 3 classes is a change in variety, but a major in building your character. You are limited and most of the classes have more than 75 empty cases for your 45 class points, so not every class must be the same.

Re:Build was for a lot of reasons but also aimed for your said casualization. And the latest Devblog from IMC just shows more clearly that they have this intention.

I agree, Tree of Savior did not came from a source that is meant for casuals, however, it is casual players that pay money, because it is them that would whale into the game if it means winning. Hardcore players won’t pay because they like to grind into the game to win which means not paying (unless you make them pay to play, which is my preference).

Unofortutely IMC needs to survive and this will become more casual. We can only hope it will work and stay as fun, because niche it might no be anymore.

Man, this frustates me to no end, i have 3 penguin eggs and 2 guinea pig ones just sitting there, would also love to get a rocksodon and goro but im out of character slots :c i dont get why pets still take a character slot, SPECIALLY the falcon

now that you mention it, i think it would be cool if we could have a sub-class, that maybe let you have “1 circle” of a class, but i guess that would be kinda hard to balance

This is NOT GOOD for player retention and growth let me tell you that first. People who don’t know the meta and just decide to play the game and pick “freely” will quit as fast as they started thanks to their build being weak or weird. I mean, there’s like 7 circles they have to pick, and if you happen to mix it the wrong way, your character’s essentially become irrelevant pretty fast. and once they know this, they’d just right out quit the game. (trust me I’ve seen it several times with my irl friends and guildmates).

you know how this turned out yourself right? meta is very prevalent, and only a very small section of endgame players are willing to explore the possibilities. most 90% of players just build the established meta and live with it, leaving the actual build diversity very small. and for those ‘creative new players’ that tried to make a unique build without a deep dive into the mechanics quit the game really fast. But after re:build, I see a lot of new players just run with their preference, and have an actual viable build. and even if they did mess up, it’s probably only 1 out of 3 picks which they can fix later since class reset are free nowadays.

so yeah. imo, re:build did kill ‘potential’ diversity, but it left the game better for everyone.

This happens because not all classes were designed to be equally strong, which is somethint that was done with re:build and is still being done to this day. However, the remove of fragmented Class building had no relation to this. If you had the current SFR almost everything would work, no need to reduce the circle numbers.

That reduction was done for two reasons that were very explicit from IMC:
1 - To make builds easier to understand and to reset in the new system
2 - To make balancing an easier job for developers
Therefore, the reduction to 3 options is an clear declaration from IMC that they are incompetent, not because people would quit.

You know why people quit? Because the game was buggy as hell and their favorites classes didn’t do enough damage, which happened to be the 1~6 rank range, that is, power creep. And the new content on new ranks more often than not was not enjoyable by this people, and Wizards specially hated the new classes.

No, you’re wrong, Meta is done by overly focused metagameplayers and PVP players, which often were the same people and therefore not the majority. Most people just wanted to breed characters like Pokemon and have thematic and minimally functional characters that looked like their favorite anime heroes and heroines. They would be happy only seeing them grow while having fun with friends defeating hard enemies (at the time when it was hard). Of course, it is still possible to do the same thing now, but the customization is much more limited, and limited by a one-sided reason.

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Alright, I think we should drop this off since neither of us has the statistics and data to support this. I’m also talking from my experience playing in indonesian ToS so yeah, it may not apply to iToS, so take it with a grain of salt.

this is quite an easy answer. technically, anything would work with enough SFR, that goes without saying. If all the dev had to tweak is SFR, they wouldn’t even need to make the whole re:build system since that takes a lot of resource and effort to do. But there was another issue about the 8 circle classes that cannot be solved with simple SFR tweaking, hence re:build. i think it might be because very complicated build system and mechanics that just threw new players off, or meta is just being too prevalent or something. it could also be the dev trying to make things easier for themselves for future balancing. but hey, it’s just a guess from my experience and what i read, so make your own theory if you feel that’s wrong.

the game was always known for it’s bug. it has been a problem since day 1. also, if their favorite class didn’t do enough damage, it’s simply because they aren’t following the meta, hence making a “bad build” and quit. for example, you like linker. but make a linker without pyro, and your linker isn’t that good at solo content anymore. mix it with pyro and you’ll have a meta build. now you see why meta is prevalent? nobody wants a sub-optimal build. and those who build one, according to you, quit. So yeah, it’s either you quit, or you build a meta build. hence logically speaking, making the game full of meta builds.


i really like the discussion so far. A lot of good arguments for both sides.

Although i liked the concept of stronger classes that you have to work for, i understand that it may be better to offer all classes at the same time for balancing reasons. But as said before, that could have been done also with the old system that still would have allowed more variety.

About the meta discussion. Even if there is a meta and a lot of people are building for it, it does not mean there is any relevance to restrict other players that do not care about meta. And giving people an option to make some corrections to their builds would already solve the problem about frustrated players leaving the game.

So all in all i can understand some changes and not all are bad decisions. Still i think there could have been a much better way to improve things. Especially that you know have to play one class to the end e.g. class level 45 instead of being able to mix inbetween is a huge downside when leveling imo

It is very sad that a debate in the forum is more interesting and “fun” than the video game itself. Well, on the issue of how the skills and class system should be, there may be a third way that would not be to return to the old system (Circle Ranks) or try to fix the current one (ReBuild).

I started playing this in his “preorder”, but eventually I went once for the direction I had everything (this topic is not to discuss that and my message is already in place), later, after a period of years I returned for the ReBuild issue … to leave again, since, it seems that even the developers do not know what to do with their own game (patches here and there, but no absolute solution to the roots of the problem, the important ones in the background ).

And here we are, with the issue of the skill system. First of all, to say that I was a victim of the ReBuild, because weird builds that I liked to play, nowadays are impossible because of the movement of jobs to other branches, among other things such as the elimination of skills that offered alternatives in your “build” . In short, beyond what affected me, I didn’t like ReBuild at all; The idea was good, but the execution was painful. I will not play until they clear up and the game is minimally stable.

Technically speaking, it is impossible to make the system balanced (just not, because the fair does not exist) because of the amount of “Classes” and the ever increasing level limit accompanied by new “ultimate gear”, but also, we must add the non-separation of the “Jobs” of the “Classes” (professions, to manufacture, cultivate, build etc., should go separately, like any other RPG). When you add and remove every day, but you don’t repair the roots of the problems, you have this result.

So what could solve the problem of imbalances and inflatable system? A new, absolutely, system designed from the base (including skills and “classes”) and not a ReBuild2 that does the same as its predecessor, that is, pick up a bit from there and here and change a little here and there.

A good idea, could be, reduce the number of “classes” to the same number of branches, so, we would have only one specialized in Melee, one in guns and other projectiles (arrows, cannons …), and a third focused on magic.

Each in turn, would have key skills called “expertise skills” that would unlock (not to be confused with passive, which would add them as unlockable in the same system), depending on their level, certain skills or others, and of course, the amount of skills it would be quite high to allow unique characters, and in certain parts, with combo skills with others (for example, if you learn X Lv from one “expertise” with another; Water Magic Lv1 and Earth Magic Lv1 unlock “Mud Magic Lv1” skills; " Water Magic Lv1 “and” Cold Magic Nv1 “would enable” Ice Magic Lv1 “;” Heal Magic Lv1 “with” Water Magic Lv1 “would enable” Water Heal Magic Lv1 "spells - remember that Tree of Savior is a fantasy game, stick to a real lore limits-).

Of course, the idea is that all skills (would be MANY) only have a single level and dont need point to asign in this one (the expertise skill dictaminate what skills you can use), so that a damage ability of Lv1 would do less damage than one Lv5 and this in turn, unlike an Lv10.

For example, a character from the magic branch (we assume that his expertise will be according to elements); “Fire magic Lv1”, this would activate the fire magic with that category, while “Water Magic Lv10” (assuming 10 would be the maximum) would enable the corresponding floods.

In a Melee character the “expertise” would be according to the type of weapon or martial arts used; from “Swordplay Lv1, etc.” up to “Karate Lv1” (with combos like magic; “Karate / Judo / Jujutsu and KungFu Lv1” should activate the skills “Kajukendo Lv1”).

To make it balanced and interesting under the premise of “quantity vs. quality” and vice versa, the points to be assigned in the “expertise skills” would be limited (as now), but more level, more points you would need to unlock the next one (Fire Magic Lv1 to 2 you would only need to invest 2 points, from Fire Magic Lv5 to 6 you would need 6 and not just one or two).

In the end, the goal is for the player to feel that he can try, within the options he has chosen, different ways of playing and applying skills without restarting or creating more characters for nothing (its similar to collection pokemon here), he would feel an evolution from when he starts playing until he ends up looking for the " ultimate gear. "

p.d: why not place a support / healing branch in this hypothetical system? That would complicate it, in addition, such skills would be activated with the right combination of “expertise skills” (see example of magic combos). Anyway, another post that will be at the bottom of “the unread list of IMC.”

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i still hate re build
i just can bare with it a bit and still admire the art style.
and i can get retire again and again for this game.
you can dream all you want but in the end unless you are whale or having thousands of nexon kr account to spam on its main forum when its vote/feedback time, nothing will change
thats it.

I don’t know… Still have faith in Re:build concept. They got a lot of things right in general. “Forcing” you to get 3 circles of the classes give more meaning how the character will end up. It still needs more polish.
Like making one of the classes your “core” for the build(any of them! Even Chronomancer or Squire). Could be the Master Class that they are planing to release at some point, probably in the episode we kill Giltine.
The Arts system will give more variety and flavors for the classes or just create another strict meta that people will follow until the end of times… Again.

Woah boy, thats a lot of words to say nothing lol, all i took from there is that you didnt liked Re:Build? What are “the root of the problems” exactly? How exactly was the execution bad? What gives you the idea that the developers dont know what to do with the game?

See, when you make arbitrary claims like that without giving any kind of explanation, bases or context one could assume that you are simply giving your opinion, which is perfectly ok, but it doesnt make any of those claims true necessarily

Moving on, to you new system;

I find this whole system a little confusing, so, does this mean that we would condense all the “melee” classes into 1 single class? as in, that single class would have access to ALL melee skills in the game? same with “arrow” classes, magic etc,. so we would end up with 3 classes only in total, correct? so we would have 3 base starting classes, instead of the 5 we have right now, then move on from there, unlocking skills with a branch system, like Diablo or RO, correct? no more individual classes

See, this seems so overly complicated, it does sound cool tho… for another game

The thing is, this looks soooo far off from what ToS is that you might as well make a new game, this kind of system would completely destroy any kind of class identity and uniqueness, something that ToS is known for

It also goes without saying that it would require an entire revamp for all the skills in the game because they are not meant to be used in a single “class”, it would be a balancing nightmare

The kind of examples you give and the way you explain them gives me the impression that you either, had this random idea and didnt put much thought into it when trying to mix it with ToS, or saw this from another game, liked it there, and still not put much thought when trying to mix it with ToS;

For example, what exactly would be the difference between “Cold” and “Ice” magic? also, what kind of already exisiting skills would fall into the “Mud Magic” category? or the “Water Heal” one, same thing for Karate, Judo, Jujutsu, KungFu, Kajukendo (??? what even is that lol)

I dunno man, all that seems so far off from the original idea of ToS, unless im not understanding it correctly

Ohh and also;

Thats like, your opinion, man

I am very sorry if you have not understood what was written, I am using a translator (I am not an English speaker). The problems to which I refer I left them in writing in another post, because I did not want to repeat myself (at all, because from day 1 the ITOS community is ignored, or at least, it seems).

And yes, it is an idea that came from a small interpretive role play in one forum, what could be developed in TOS as something interesting? Yes, why not.

But IMC seems to follow the idea of ​​minimum effort and maximum monetary benefit. On ReBuild v1.0, the idea was good, but the execution was painful … I explain, in addition to moving “classes” that do not fit with certain branches and the creation of the new (scout), have been commissioned day by day to destroy combinations in each update; It would be an entertaining game (at least) if it wasn’t that easy and almost everything depended on the casino gacha.

Do I remember how certain fun abilities that were not entirely to harm the monsters took them out of the way or changed them horrible? Well, as you pointed out, it was just an opinion … I didn’t want to do any professional analysis or anything like that (I don’t even care anymore, I don’t play, at least until it’s minimally playable and stable, to stop patching the asphalt). Well, I leave the link to the post where I point out the horrors of the game.