Tree of Savior Forum

What are your opinions on Wizard PvP Builds post kToS nerfs?

Class and Rank Wizard
#125

[quote=“showatt0016, post:121, topic:298999”]
Now they do. Previously CC wizard blows sht up with 1 combo. Now they actually have to play the game like everyone else.
[/quote]Except for the fact they dont have any 0s CD skills to compensate burst getting weaker and some CDs still being outrageously long.

[quote=“Borkur, post:123, topic:298999”]
The nerf is very needed IMO, it is just nearly impossible for the majority of the classes to win against Kinos in general, whether it’s 1vs1 or group pvp.
[/quote]Any RPG with such specific class roles will never be balanced around 1v1 or low scale pvp. Kinos (and other Wiz classes) still have enough CC to win most duels, tho will most likely lose to any Archer with Heavy Shot or Stone Shot and a brain (cant cast skills while being pushed, even with Sure Spell active).

Kinos were addressed because of GvG, where all classes should be able to fulfill their roles to some extent, except they were overperforming.

Honestly, GP could get its damage back, so the DPS/Support tag could make sense again, just dont give it a hard CC back.

1 Like
#126

  1. People having bad internet isn’t a good basis to nerf skills as that is a personal problem and unique to invidual players. The only fair way to address this is to improve the net code, not make skills pointless to use.

  2. Yes, if a swordie dies to a deployment skill in PvP, it is indicative of them rushing head first without strategy, something a lot of swordie players do.

  3. Yes, CC is strong in PvP because it is meant to be strong in PvP. CC being strong is not a reason to make the main c3 Psycho skill, one meant to do cc and damage equally in a class meant to do both, unable to do either.

  4. Builds aren’t supposed to be in line with other builds. Some builds are meant to be better at certain activities in the game. Does that mean that the sky’s the limit? No, no one is saying that. Does it mean that balance should still be applied for each and every skill, even with a nerf? Yes. Yes, it does.

  5. Because, you’re dead wrong here. It is BAD balancing to have a knee jerk reaction to what people qq about. It is giving into actual crying, from a helpless baby, who wants daddy IMC to make the mean PvP build feel bad for hurting your will PvE Swordie feelings. Yes, I’m all for things a bit too powerful being toned down. I’m not all for skills that take millions of silver of investment and 100’s of hours of leveling centered around being made factually useless. And yes, a skill doing less damage output than energy bolt is objectively useless you baby bigot. It is like if you were a Cata, and Rush, the big skill you invested all your silver and time into playing around, now was weaker than your weakest basic swordie skill. It’s not evident of good balance.

  6. Gravity Pole fulfills the purpose of giving Psycho a much deserved damage skill in its rotation as it is in-fact a red class, a DPS class and without it, they only have c1 skills for DPS. You might think a class being able to do average damage with strong CC being too much, but that’s what the skill is litterrally centered around in context to gameplay. That is WHY it is a popular choice for PvP. Nerfing its skills sensibly to keep it at the max allowed viability, okay, we get it, no one here has said otherwise. Making their main c3 skill which is their only real ranged damage skill both unable to CC and unable to deal damage isn’t a thought out nerf, it’s devs desperate to please babies, whiners. It’s evident of someone giving up actual balance. The damage nerf was done in an attempt to make it similar to how it was originally, not really meant for damage, but meant for cc. Still was pretty strong? Yeah, cause CC is what made it so good in PvP, the damage was always just average in the first place. So then they hit the CC, and low and behold, no one wants to use it in any setting where both the dmg nerf and cc nerf is applied. That isn’t a good outcome. People should still want to use it, and no, not out of novelty. It’s meant to be able to do moderate damage and great cc, and now it can do neither. The only person who thinks that is a good idea is the people qqing in the first place. The rest of us who aren’t regressive know it was overnerfed. Those of us who have a sense of standards know it was a bad change.

  7. Overnerfs done to satify online complaints set a precedent to overnerf anything that is complained about enough. This isn’t good no matter who is effected. Skills shouldn’t be made pointless by a nerf. It’s bad when a skill is made to be bad from the get go, but at least people won’t consider it being an important part of their build. But, when you nerf the core skill of many builds, not to being just not as good, but to be useless, you screw over all those people, and any sense of case by case balance by it. And you’re wrong, so wrong, insanely wrong to think that a class’s position in popularity justifies overnerfs. It’s called an OVER nerf for a reason. Because it was nerfed so hard that it no longer has a place to be used at all. It’s like they took G Pole and switched it with some reject skill that couldn’t even make the cut past Energy Bolt. It’s objectively overnerfed, that isn’t even what you’re debating, you’re trying to say it’s okay to make core skills litterally objectively pointlessly bad because the class is doing good overall in its area that it is meant to do very good in.

  8. It isn’t being dumb to examine every skill on a case by case basis, it’s smart, but it is hard work, and takes a lot more effort than just bowing to the loudest whiners online. Yes, the skill was a bit ridiculous, but no, that doesn’t mean it should be made useless. I feel the same way about the number 2 PvP class, plague doctor. I don’t think any one of their skills should be useless, I wouldn’t want that. It’s objectively bad to make core skills useless in the area they are meant to thrive in. I’m saying that and I don’t like clerics at all. I think being able to support and heal and cure and set up barriers and have invulnerability and be able to do damage on top of that is insane. But, no, I don’t want any one of their core skills nerfed so bad that it is pointless to even use. That mentality leads to a game that no one will enjoy. If you want that kind of experience, go play a non-mmo pvp game because mmo pvp games with a complex class system like this are meant to have builds that give them big edges in PvP. We pvpers sacrifice optimum effectiveness and fun in PvE and expect skills to remain useful even if nerfed, like like anyone else. That’s a standard I believe should always be held whether it is for a wizard, an archer, a swrodie, or even a cleric be it PvP or PvE. Because I want all skills to offer something, and I want all core skills to offer something solid. It is objectively true that a skill can be so bad that it is useless and that is the case with the current Gpole in PvP on KtOS. I know you can’t stand that because it proves your narrative is false and motivated with irrational revenge. But, for those of us who haven’t drunk the salty koolaid, for it to be a formerly core skill of a c3 circle to have been ravaged like this, it is something to be concerned about.

Yes though, I realize things are going back and forth a lot in kToS. I’m sure many of you aren’t really caring much of the current state of things since you know it could look different in a few weeks completely. But, these kind of extremes should send red flags. I’m sure those among us who are sane don’t want to be in a nightmare where a core ability may fall apart completely due to people complaining on the forums enough. I’m sure most of us realize that more goes into balance than kneejerk crowd appeasing, and that it is not only fair, but right for a professional level of conduct when making game changes of any kind to be expected. Being a smaller company doesn’t change that it is a business that our money (for those of us who buy TP) go into and that good practices should be encouraged. As much as the other side wants to make the narrative nerf vs. no nerf, that isn’t what it is. It’s nerf vs. overnerf, and an overnerf is never welcomed for any ability.

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#127

DAYUM you must be very salty and angry about the Kino balancing.At this point we all understand your reasons and pain behind the changes,we just have different opinions.At the end of the day,what’s done is done right?

#128

Nothing has been done over here and nothing is set in stone over there. While we all can have opinions, not all opinions are created equal, thus why people expand on them, while others try to change the narrative to something perverse to reality so their stance doesn’t look so bad. The reality is nerf vs. overnerf, the perversion in narrative is no nerf vs. nerf. Kneejerk crowd appeasement or trying to force player numbers to be a certain way are both bad practices and it’s a matter of principle to be against either.

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#129

`[quote=“valkyrie_regalia, post:126, topic:298999, full:true”]

  1. People having bad internet isn’t a good basis to nerf skills as that is a personal problem and unique to invidual players. The only fair way to address this is to improve the net code, not make skills pointless to use.

In which part of my comment did you assume that “bad internet” is a basis for a nerf? I was merely using the lags and whatnot to show you PVP don’t mean jacks until they fix their net issues, and whatever “balance” patch, nerf or buff, matters very little until this issue is resolved.

  1. Yes, if a swordie dies to a deployment skill in PvP, it is indicative of them rushing head first without strategy, something a lot of swordie players do.

Yeah because lagging isn’t an issue in the game. Because swordie are great against wizard CCs and magic damage. Because swordie have a ton of CC that goes through bloodletting and can cast them from a far. Because swordie can deals a sht load of damage without being in melee range. That’s what makes swordie the top dogs in pvp. That’s why everyone is rolling a swordie to pvp. Oh wait lmao

  1. Yes, CC is strong in PvP because it is meant to be strong in PvP. CC being strong is not a reason to make the main c3 Psycho skill, one meant to do cc and damage equally in a class meant to do both, unable to do either.

Lemme translate that for you: "Yeah PVP CC wizards are supposed to be OP because it says in the class description that it can CC and deal damage. I can also have loads of HP too. That’s what the class meant to do. To CC and melt people at the same time. If anything IMC should just nerf it a LITTLE so I can still wreck face in PVP and when people cry i can tell them to stfu we’ve been nerfed already. "

4.Builds aren’t supposed to be in line with other builds. Some builds are meant to be better at certain activities in the game…

Clearly you’re not getting the part where “CC wizards are broken” even against other “PVP builds”.

  1. Because, you’re dead wrong here. It is BAD balancing to have a knee jerk reaction to what people qq about. It is giving into actual crying, from a helpless baby, who wants daddy IMC to make the mean PvP build feel bad for hurting your will PvE Swordie feeling- bluh.

Again No one said anything about PVE build being not viable in pvp. You really enjoys beating the strawman don’t you? The fact is even against other pvp characters CC wizards were simply too good.

You saying “you’re all for OP skill getting toned down”. Rofl. Yeah great i wouldn’t mind if they reduce Rush damage by 100, or reduce cloak by 5 seconds too. You clearly aren’t biased at all.

Also Knee jerk reaction? Damn You really think game dev just tune into forums and read about someone babyraging and then just mindlessly start nerfing every skill without play-testing themselves huh.

It it mindboggling how clueless and stubborn someone can be, and still talk like they know jacks about balancing a game. Ever studied game design? I have. Ever designed any multi-player pvp games? Not just on paper or in your head, but an actual video game with a demo that’s showcased in game conventions like Pax? I have.

When it comes to balancing, we don’t just look at forum, at the salt and tears from players like yourself. We observe the meta, observe the strategy (class, skill) people use to win games then we play test them and judge the balance for ourselves. We almost NEVER, look at a class and go “this skill needs to be fixed”, or “that skills’ garbage”, because every single skill,class in a game are all relatives to one another. You need to look at what’s happening in the bigger picture, and it’s very clear that what the dev saw in ktos pvp was telling them quite plainly, that certain pvp skill/class/build are too effective, and drastic changes are needed to shift the meta

  1. Gravity Pole fulfills the purpose… bluh. dev are trying to please the crybabies…bluh. (translation: People who agree with me knows what up, people who disagree, even though they play the same class, are crybabies.)

Let’s for the sake of argument, assumes that this skill is in fact overnerfed (which it isn’t, as many believed), and has tremendous impact on PVP wizards like you said. What do you think is going to happen?

People are going to look for an alternative ways to overcome this deficit, which is good for the game, and in the most extreme case, people stop playing the class and instead turn to the next fotm class to gauge a win, what do you think the devs are going to do? Add some more loading screens? (lel actually that could happen)

Everything is about the meta. Right now the pvp meta is dominated by CC wizards. This nerf (or overnerf, as you so insistent on calling), is looking to change just that. The meta. A small nerf to damage ain’t gonna do a damn thing.

And Jesus christ the changes aren’t even here yet and you’re crying like you’re going to delete your character.

  1. Overnerfs done to satify online complaints set a precedent to overnerf anything that is complained about…

yeah i’m gonna stop you here because you honestly have zero experience in game development and knows nothing about how things work in game industry

  1. It isn’t being dumb to examine every skill on a case by case basis, it’s smart, but it is hard work

It is actually pretty dumb, and just because it works in your fairy imaginary land, where companies don’t have and budget or time constrains and can spent days discussing every single skill of all the classes in the game, their roles in every trees, their usage in actual game play and how they affect the meta…

In your imagery la la land where devs never disagree with one another, where devs know all the answer without spending a single moment to playtest, and have nothing better to do all day than to please every crybaby who doesn’t want their class nerfed to smithereens…

…Doesn’t mean it works in real life.

Yes though, I realize things are going back and forth a lot in kToS— bluh.

Let’s put things into perspective here shall we?

In this very thread, there are wizard players who have played on ktos, telling you the changes didn’t all that much, and there are wizard players like yourself crying about how it is an overnerf.

In your own mind, you’re saying to yourself: "Clearly these people are lying/misinformed/have no idea what they’re talking about. Clearly i am right and my math/reasonings are sound.

And you aren’t the only one. The other people too, with different opinions, thought they are correct too. You say it’s overnerf, even though the patch isn’t even here yet, and you’re just number crunching. Other people say “sit down, it’s balanced.”

And if the opinions are this divided in 1 single thread, you think every wizard who ever rolled a CC will think the same as you? You think every dev will have the same opinion on everything, and resolving these difference can be done just by talking it out?

Yeah like that’s working out so well in this thread.

Obviously things need to be put into practice. Meta needs to be observed in action before other balance can happen. What you’re doing is biatching about bad weather when it hasn’t even started raining yet.

Ain’t easy being an developers (that’s why i move into translation, much simpler, less politics, and struggle for creative control).

Being a smaller company doesn’t change that it is a business that our money

Yeah wow you bought TP damn son thanks for keeping the game afloat man. The devs should definitely listen to 1 side of the argument, and not the other side, because clearly you spent money and nobody else did.

Think i’m gonna try and get a refund on the packs i bought along with the 900 tps…oh wait i can’t. Damn.

It’s nerf vs. overnerf, and an overnerf is never welcomed for any ability.

It’s opinion vs opinion and listening to 1 side only is never welcomed for any company.

FIFY.

[/quote]

Bolded text are my responses, and these will be the last i ever say to YOU in this thread because clearly you aren’t interested in discussion about other viable builds.

Your only goal here, has been proven time and time again, is to cry about an “overnerf”, and the state of this thread reflected that desire. You are not interested in the opinions of the others - only those that mirror your own. Thread title should have been: “Wizard in Ktos Patch is Over-nerfed and here’s why I think it is.”

How many people are here to suggest an workaround to the nerf? How many people are coming up with ways to overcome the nerf instead of calling people who came in here, wanting to tell you that the world isn’t over for wizard, that you may still be effective in PVP, that you should wait until the patch is here before saying CC wizards are useless, a bunch of “biased twat” “baby bigot”?

Every one is biased. Everyone has different experience playing the game, but the most biased, most salty person here aren’t the ones who are okay with the nerf.

It’s you.

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#130

#131
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#132

Hmm Wiz3/Link2/Necro1/Warlock1 or Necro 2 could work. Link->burst by magic or by buffing archer dmg via decay.

#133

I’m not talking to you about other builds because you aren’t bringing them up. I’m only replying back to a topic you keep engaging in. Your stance is that it’s okay to nerf a skill into uselessness because a build overall is strong. I don’t think that’s good for any class. You want it so badly to be just about me and a specific build but it isn’t. It’s about principles. Also, this isn’t LoL or Overwatch where you play already established characters. You have to level and build a character, and regardless if you think it’s fun and easy to start over again and again, for most it isn’t and that needs to be taken in account with any change. It’s a much, much better approach to add to the meta rather than switch builds out of the meta for how the game is structured. As for your personal experience, it’s easy to say you’re whatever you want to say to make your argument seem better, but even if you are a real game designer and go to PAX and what not, that doesn’t change the importance of taking in account the game when deciding balance approach.

The thing is, you avoid the actual argument and the numbers because you can’t go against them, you can only attempt to attack me as a person for replying to an argument you yourself have been continuing with me as if that’s the only thing I care about. It’s good to list other builds and I’m glad a few other people have mentioned them. I myself in the OP listed what I thought might still be viable or have potential. In tangent to the topic though, the subject of overnerfs have come up, which is okay, to which I think there was some overnerfs done and I do strongly believe against them. As long as you continue to be for overnerfing skills to skew what people play as, that it should be practiced in a game like this, I will argue against you. So make as many character attacks as you want, it doesn’t change that a combination nerf of cc and damage is an overnerf because it’s not only removing what made the skill OP, but going further to make the skill unusable at all. The numbers back me up and that goes beyond opinion, it’s actual data and actual comparisons.

While I am calling you out on what I see as bigotry, at least I’m also providing real arguments instead of only making big self claims of occupation and accusations of ulterior motives. To which, think what you want about my real motive, but what I said is true. It’s going beyond what made a skill too good to make it pointless to use regardless of investment just so people don’t see it used which is just giving into complaints. It isn’t enough that the skill would be made balanced, it had to be hit so hard that using it at all is objectively bad playing? No matter how OP you think a class is, that isn’t good balancing. A core skill should always have at least something to offer, even if it’s just damage filler.

Also, why are you expanding on what the class is meant for by design as a way to define my stance on Gravity Pole? Again, you want it to feel like it’s me trying to squirm in to make GPole OP, but I am not saying GPole should cc and decent damage post nerf, I’m saying that’s the design of the class, so if a skill is no longer going to cc, it should at least do reasonable damage.

Yes, I do mention other popular skills of other classes in comparison because if another build from another tree ever became the most used build, it also would be faced with overnerfs if this becomes the norm. I don’t want myself or others to have to change builds post building them due to skills being overly nerfed to try to twist the playerbase to look a certain way. Again, I’m all for balance, and I can agree that the CC of GPole was a bit too good. Looking at what they, the devs did, was attempt to hit the damage first to see if that would be enough, which alone, was evidence that they didn’t have a grasp on why GPole was so good since it was never a damage thing at all, and the CC thing now is them actually hitting the core strength of it. Them leaving the damage nerf in addition to it is an overnerf, possibly maybe even an oversight.

I’m not going on and on about this though because I think replying in this thread will have a major effect on that though, but rather, I think it’s important to promote healthy balancing that matches the game it’s being done on. Harsh overnerfs and long grindy games don’t go well together. I do hold PvE to the same standard as PvP, which you admittedly don’t because of a lack of PvP content, but for me, that doesn’t change principle. Some people like PvP more regardless of the sheer quantity of PvP content and it deserves equal respect due to that.

It’s easy to gaze at a long post and say “qq” and “crying” rather than really address the core arguments being made, but it doesn’t help either side to do so. The topic is something worth talking about for me because it could impact how things are done in this specific game. It’s not so simple as, “Oh, this build is too good, let’s just nerf things till enough people stop using this.” You have to take in account what actually is and isn’t OP, and what is fair for a PvP class to have in PvP. Gravity Pole post nerf is no longer a hard CC skill is a fact. The Hard CC is what made that particular skill so good. In respect to Psycho, I’m only arguing for the previous nerfs that were tackling the damage to now be revoked (since that didn’t really hurt the skill back then due to the CC being what mattered), as with the CC now being very heavily nerfed, there merely is no longer a reason for the damage to be reduced too.

The bottomline I think for the Psycho thing is that just because a class is a top PvP one, even if it’s relative to other PvP builds, that a standard of logic and quality should still be applied to how a skill is nerfed. If that’s crying, then I’ll gladly take that label because I think that’s good principle and a good approach for this game. And yeah, it’s Psycho today, but can just as easily be another class tomorrow.

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#134
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