Good thing we weren’t talking about empirical data. You mentioned the poll, so i gave you the poll statistics. 21% against 79% speaks for it’s self. i can guarantee this game won’t be nearly as popular if it stays the same. It won’t stop me, but i’m one out of the tons of people who want to play this game. And this is coming from experience as well, i didn’t reach 100 but i did hit 89 during the closed beta.
@mannaise422 People need to stop trying to make this game WoW its not a cookie cutter mmo its a niche game.
Alright… i don’t understand the premise of that statement. But i trust in the end, this game will ultimately be an mmo, it’s pretty much a “Pick your flavor” thing nowdays. I hope they soak up everything and come to some sort of conclusion, either way i’ll have fun with the game. I just hope the majority can as well. Creating a niche mmo is like trying to find unique pictures on deviantart. Just pick what you like and stop arguing why you think it’s a pioneer piece of art.
@mannaise422 Fair enough. I’m just saying this game shouldn’t try to hard to cater to people as its not gonna be a huge game like WoW (i hate WoW but its a example everyone understands) which is so watered down everyone can play it. This game being niche should just develop a cult following that’s fiercely loyal. For example demon souls is a niche game and its now at its 4th game Blood Born strictly because their cult following supports them as long as they don’t ruin it trying to bring in the masses that want everything handed to them. Long story short the game does not have to cater to whining to be successful. Which since you said you would play either way the xp goes your probably part of that cult following i’m talking about and understand what i am getting at.
Your getting a reply because saying the soul’s series is niche in anyway is hilarious. But onto the main reason for this post any game is going to end up catering to its largest player base because that’s how a game gets its funding. Sure you could make a niche game and have maybe what 6000 people playing it but if its a F2P like Tree of Savior only maybe 500 people would get premium or spend money on a daily basis. That can’t support the company with its hosting fees and salaries for its employees. In the end if as the poll you mentioned earlier 21% of players want the exp to stay the same but 79% want it to be higher its going to end up being higher. At the same time if the game gets to inclusive where only veterans really play it they lose a ton of income since new players won’t want to stay. Basically all i’m saying is at the moment i’m in the raise the exp for the game and comparing this to a “niche” game that had a teaser at E3 is a weird thing to do.
@ryunden " 21% of players want the exp to stay the same but 79%" Wrong the poll i mentioned says 40% want it higher and 60% said leave it alone. And yes souls is a niche game that’s how it started just more and more people have checked it out because of its dedicated followers. Clearly you were not a player during the demon souls period.
The game was made a reason the way it is. This is a KMMORPG it is going to have grind. If you want a game without grind I suggest you play CoD.
I do not agree with your opinion just as you do not agree with mine. We have different experiences with gaming so our opinions are not going to be the same. I still disagree with you. If those gamers do not want a grind fest they should not be playing a kmmorpg that is one of the big elements of a kmmorpg. If you break the roots of a games background it will become generic, this game is different not because it does not grind but because the combat is very different. Why not just change the whole game while you are at it and make it so there is no open world to avoid lag? Because lag will discourage new players from playing because they can not handle lag. I myself like to grind because it makes the game more rewarding. If you get rid of the reward factor it will not keep people playing. I suggest you stop taking the game so personal and go enjoy this game when it comes out instead of looking for things to complain about. I honestly hope that IMC will not take players like you serious because you only make up a little tiny amount compared to the masses waiting to play. I hope they do not make this game for casuals.
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Decided to finally give this a read since it was a huge block of text.
I’ve played both the iCBT and kCBT (very extensively), so based on both I’ll offer a couple things:
[quote=“vitadrink469, post:1, topic:35642”]
- Put at least 1-2 optimal grind spots for every map or at least more than 1 per level bracket. I don’t know if this will affect the servers because more data is needed per extra mobs but something needs to be done. At level 90, my party and I had a lot of trouble getting to level 100. We couldn’t find a place to get efficient exp to level at a decent pace. If we were to grind at the location we were in, it would take us approximately 1-2 hours to level once. We searched for hours for a location to grind… but couldn’t find a single optimal grind spot that had a good density of mobs for 5 man parties. Every map level 85+ consisted of 3-5 mobs per screen-after killing all the mobs per “Field room” you’d be left with pretty much 0 spawn. You would have to travel a good 20 seconds to reach the next set of spawns. We need the density and spawn rate at every map to be something like Tenet Garden north of the goddess. If you have never been there… Then I guess Miner’s Village east side before the bridge, it has a lot of vegetables…? Onions? Bulbs? =][/quote]
The spawn rate seems to be also affected by the amount of players in an area killing the same mobs. Being ahead or only with a few players in a map, means less mobs, means less grinding. There are usually 3ish maps to level on at each bracket, however certain classes excel in certain areas compared to others. Being in a party, and probably leveling in the same area, you were unable to experience this.
[quote=“vitadrink469, post:1, topic:35642”]
2. More channels. I don’t know how frustrating it was for the people that was stuck leveling with the majority of the population, but one can imagine it was filled with people. Optimal grind spots had at least 4 parties KSing/Fighting for mobs, even blues. Your exp rate is greatly reduced because of that and frustration of being KS’d will cause people to stop playing. Allow Dynamic channel system. A lot of population = more channels. Low population = Low channel (At the very least 2)[/quote]
Actually the channels do seem to be dynamic, though in iCBT they seemed to be a little weird, maybe they turned off that feature or edited it? I also think there was too few people at high level maps for the dynamic channel system to kick in, in low level maps it also seemed a little buggy, or didn’t work. I also think certain maps have a hard cap on how many dynamic channels it creates.
[quote=“vitadrink469, post:1, topic:35642”]
3. Field Bosses should give exp equivalent to a rare blue mob. It is kind of sad to kill a field boss to see that your exp bars did not move a pixel. You spent a good 5-10 minutes killing that epic field boss with your friends/party and all you get is loot and exp that you can get in 10 seconds. Loot is great and all but exp is just as important. (Btw I am talking about Field bosses in dungeons or those that spawn on their own, not by the party mission F6)[/quote]
Field bosses give some of the rarest loot you can get, the current end-game is farming them for the best and most expensive recipes/mats so I think its very worthwhile, doesn’t really need an EXP boost attached to it. In kCBT, since there are many more players playing, you’d be lucky to fight a field boss for 3 minutes. You probably experienced the 5-10 min kill time because of:
- Low amount of players
- Underleveled
There is a lot of things that need to be changed with blue mobs, however if your constantly killing in an area, the spawn seems fine. I spent a couple hours in an area with a 5 man party, and we used call of deities scrolls to essentially control the maps spawns for ourselves on a cycle and tested it out. Blue mobs spawn at a fair rate, and the anti-bot grim reaper usually spawns faster. I think there are too many other issues with exp rates and blue mobs, and increasing the spawn for blue mobs just doesn’t do it, in fact I believe it’d cause more issues.
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I think that grinds are ok. They are enjoyable to some degree and you get to bond more with your characters thus becoming more meaningful the leveling process. Nonetheless, grinds are easily a double edged sword, they can be as good as they are bad for a game, you don’t want a game that’s too easy mostly because it takes away any meaningful progress more when you use leveling as part of your experience but at the same time if the game is too grindy most people will just quit the game leaving with an unhealthy game with a small population.
The problem with grinds in a game like this is what the game pretty much advertises, people need to consider that the grind should not only be defined by the amount of time 1 character takes to max level but aswell how likely people are willing to create multiple characters. In a game like this where you have so much potential for build diversity, a game with so many classes chances are that most people would love to at least try a few characters, most people would love to see differents builds and paths and see how the characters evolve and do once they are at max level. If the grind is too big rarely people will be willing to level more than 1 character, decreasing the replay value of the game, you want people to play alts, it allows new players to have others to play with, gives veterans more activities to work for, theorycrafters have a better time in the game by trying to build different characters and developers have an easier time if they were to nerf a class or job.
Imagine what would happen if you were to level one character to max level because it is the one you like the most just to see it nerf because it is “too good”, would you be willing to play a character that no longer is what you were used to? Would you be willing to level up a new character to max level? What happens if you already have leveled 2 characters, how likely would it be for you to level a third character? a fourth? How likely would it be for people to try more than just 1 character?
Grinds also come in many forms, leveling is one of the many grinds usually MMORPGs have, gear grinding, gold grinding, reputation grinding (Or been that “guy” from that server), Guild reputation, etc. There are many things that you can do just with one character, if you make just the leveling part 90% of the experience the game has to offer I am 100% that most casuals will quit the game once they realized how much of a grind the game it is going to be.
If we were talking that it takes around 2 months of playing at least 4-6 hours a day that would mean that in 1 year more dedicated players could have at least 4-6 characters but the question would be, is that much? How many jobs just one class has? How many builds you can try just with one class? At the end of the day if we were to say that just creating a character is part of the end game content then wouldn’t that be as good as the exp grind?
I am saying this because some people here are saying “Nah, come on, too easy. I almost didn’t play as much as I wanted and got to level 40”. How much is actually level 40? (As an example) how much of a difference is going from level 40 to 41 than going from level 521 to 522? If we are going to say “Grinds is okay, but I just play like not even 10% of what my character can manage to be in game” then I would say that we don’t know if the grind is actually in a healthy state.
I am ok with grinds as I stated above, but the problem is how much of a grind? and what are we willing to sacrifice to make the game more grindy? Are we willing to only have one character? How many characters and classes and paths you want to try? How many players would you consider are more than enough for you to play with? 1000? 10000? 100000? 1000000? There are way more things to consider than just “Hey, I got to level 60 and I didn’t play as much as I wanted”.
Not very good with the quoting for this forum, so i’ll just answer based off the paragraphs.
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I fully understand the concept and the mechanic of spawns in this game, also i’ve solo grinded so i know certain classes excel in certain maps. I’m not THAT dull when i play the game lol. You’re giving us your kCBT feedback. “3ish maps to level on each bracket”. That right there is clearly a kCBT feedback. Have you played the game past level 55 for iCBT? There isn’t 3 maps per bracket that gives good exp and has amazing spawn rate for 5 man parties. Heck, i’d like you to show me where because i’ve been to every nook and cranny of the map.
P.S. I’m talking about 5 man grind parties. The game should at no point in time wall off 5 man grind parties. That’s like bringing your friends to an amusement park and when you get there, they want you to play/ride independently at all times when you are in the park. -
Channels i think we’re both saying the same thing so i’ll skip that.
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Field bosses should give exp boost… just because the boss gives good loot doesn’t mean he can’t also give good exp right? It’s precisely because kCBT has reached the “end-game” that is why you guys are farming it. Had there not been a level cap you guys would still be leveling and bosses would still take 5-10 minute to kill. Its a matter of time before the lower level bosses take 5-10 minute to kill. The majority of the population wont be there anymore, just like every other mmorpg, lower level areas become dead empty after some time. If you’re worried about end-game bosses giving exp boost, you wont have to because you wont get anymore exp when you hit cap. Exp doesn’t matter when you reach cap! …Or does it?
I’ve also clearly stated dungeon bosses. Dungeon bosses has hourly respawn timers. You honestly think something that respawns hourly and doesn’t move a pixel of your exp bar when killed is good? >.>
But anyways, you gave us your kCBT feedback and you didn’t think of the whole aspect of the game, is all i’m saying. =/
- Meh that rare mob spawn rate thingy, i don’t care much about it since i personally feel its fine the way it is. Just added it because if we don’t get any changes for future iCBT then MAYBE we can get higher blue mob respawn rate? >.>
*** This forum is so freaken weird! That rare mob discussion is labeled “4” but the forum registers it as “1”… Amazing, i dislike this forum’s coding(?) even more! ***
from what i have seen in videos / when i could test the game is that people only lv fast when they are farming blue mobs, normal mobs gives really crappy exp
In a way you are correct, but also incorrect. Blues give a sudden “Burst” of exp depending on RnG of spawn. (Not sure if spawn rate is manipulable) Normal mobs gives a “Consistent” exp.
In order for it to be a good farming spot, both factors need to be in play. Area has blue spawn locations and a good density of normal mobs to grind.
I can guarantee you, you level slower by just finding/killing blues. You level extremely fast if its blues and good grind spot xD.
So yeah, people don’t level fast from only farming blues.
First I’ll clarify a few things, I’m not giving kCBT feedback, rather pointing out what’s wrong, using kCBT and iCBT info to explain it, and IMC’s reasoning behind how leveling should be done.
Keep in mind, kCBT and iCBT were only different in exp through a ratio, and scaling. Leveling in a place in kCBT is still the same and worthwhile in iCBT, comparatively, even though it’s abysmally slower in iCBT.
IMC wants each level bracket to have 3 places to level in, that is the games intention, see here from a FGT (focused group test) interview:
같은 레벨대에 3군대정도 추가되는등 사냥터루트가 대폭 변경예정 원래는 힘든구간은 파티등으로 해서 극복하는 걸 원했지만 현실은 그냥 솔플
Translation by @emailboxu:
We want to have about 3 areas for every level range where you can hunt effectively, so many hunting routes will be greatly changed. Originally we were going to have players rely on parties to get through level intervals that lacked solo zones, but now we want solo play to be relevant throughout the game.
Source:
With that in mind, there is also the general linear progression from 1 - 50ish, a little after Gesti should be fought, before any real grind splitting maps appear.
Now my main point is to counter this, and I believe the rates are not correct, and that is the reasoning behind why you could not find 3ish maps to level at in each bracket, as that was the games intention, and you did not meet the games intention, because of the rates:
Now for grinding spots past 55, which you had trouble finding, once again due to abysmal exp rates. Most likely you were looking for the place with the best spawns + exp/time. Being at the 55+ bracket in iCBT was fairly high, most players did not make it that far, and thus the places you went to had lower spawns because there was a much lower amount of players in each map than the game intended. So your best spawns + exp/time did not work very well because there was no/few best spawn locations. With that said, here is where the game wanted you to level:
55+ Dark forest areas:
Septyni Glen + Gate Route + Kvailas Forest
Even with high spawns, the above areas are pretty bad, however there are many supplementary blue quests around this range.
60/65+:
Akmens Ridge (where most players should be), there is high spawn in a central area when many players are on the map, and you can run around a small area in a circle getting constant exp.
Rukas Plateau + Titas valley are your other choices, they are somewhat more difficult, but better in small parties.
75/80+:
Royal Mausoleum 1F: Great for pyros/aoe classes.
Royal Mausoleum 2F: Great for clerics, mild aoe classes, ranged classes, melee classes.
Royal Mausoleum 3F: Great for melee classes.
Zachariel Crossroads: Good for classes with lightning damage, the big mobs in this area comparatively give more exp than other mobs, and are weak to Zaibas.
That should give you a general idea of the games intention, and how it should of played out. But it most likely did not play out for you this way because:
- EXP rates broke their idea of level bracket ranges.
- Everyone wants to search for blue mobs.
- Most of the time you are probably under leveled when looking for a decent place to get exp.
What I do agree with is kCBT rates being too high, but this was on purpose, as you could skip entire areas.
I can agree with this now as they became randomized completely.
Not true, if the exp rates were not so low, you would not be underleveled when leveling in certain areas, and the population will be more dense in OBT. But I guess some more exp would be satisfying? I only recently farmed bosses in kCBT, but on the journey from 1-200, I did not farm them, and fighting them was very short and quick, because everyone was of level range, and sometimes was great because the loot was just too good.
In kCBT, grind areas are perfectly fine (a little too good), so no one cared much for field boss exp, it was more so for loot. The reason you feel that field bosses should give more exp is because:
- Overall exp from everything was low.
- Low mob spawn, due to low amount of players in higher level maps.
- Time spent to fight the boss was too long compared to exp received, because of being underleveled/etc.
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I can’t believe people are still arguing that long grinding is fine at levels that are a 10th of the max level cap, especially when the EXP rate was half of the normal rate to begin with. People can be so narrow-minded sometimes.
Interesting info about IMC’s game intention for players! Thanks for giving me a heads up where-company wants solo play. That honestly explains the leveling 90+. When we got to level 90+ Solo leveling seems to be the best exp… Cough Or even Duo was acceptable. Heck, at 102 with my Linker partner we estimated a 1 hour per level at a certain location. We tried 5 man for abit and it was terrible… =X
Hopefully they’ll go back to a 5 man grind party. If you were to play a Full Support class a 5 man grind party would be the most interesting/fun thing to do. It’ll also allow FS Classes to have a viable leveling option, instead of soloing/duoing. I personally don’t enjoy solo grinding, its not as fun as 5 man grind party. >.<
Hm, i feel Dungeon field bosses should give an exp boost simply because they can and will be contested by many. They have a long respawn timer, and they’re generally made for a group of 5. Any more than 5 people-chances are 1 person wont get any loot. Exp gain for 5 people split (minimum) should at least be visible on the exp bar… Im not saying we should get exp 2x-3x-etc more than what a blue mob gives. All i’m asking is the boss should give exp more than what its giving, preferably something like a blue rare mob does. You cant overkill a boss like a blue mob, so there is no way to manipulate the exp given from bosses.
I have the impression you think me and my group were underleveled when doing bosses? We actually weren’t underleveled. In-fact most the time we were above the level or 1-2 below it. Lets just say we stayed in the popular 5 man grind spots until we were 8-10 levels above the mob’s level. Heck, we stayed on Royal Mausoleum 1F until we were 90. A mob in there actually gave me 20 exp solo kill. (Needed like 250k to level?)
Possibly, but now there are 5 man dungeons and the bosses in there give lots of exp compared to field bosses. I think if the exp remains relatively low, then they should buff the exp gained from field bosses, but if it’s raised, then it seems fine.
Yes, I did assume that sorry, and even with higher exp rates, pyro’s/etcs tend to stay in royal mausoleum even past 90 because the exp/time + spawns were great there too.
Field bosses are also not meant to be 5-manned, which is why you might have felt that they took too long vs reward.
Really? Field bosses are not meant to be 5 manned? But… the loot only gets passed out to around 5 people… 
My mind is blown.
Field bosses are not raid bosses… at least they shouldn’t be. I heard the game is suppose to have raid bosses, if what i heard is correct then field bosses should be 5 manned. Makes no sense for the boss to need more than 5 people. I even duo’d a field boss 2 man, with a tank. (Which btw, gave little to no exp ;))
Quest boss: 1 or more
Field boss: 2 or more
Raid boss: 10 or more?
Just throwing out what i think the game is based on for PvE bosses.
And good to hear about the 5 man instance dungeon bosses gives lots of exp. Hopefully we’ll get to try out the new instanced dungeon.
Cough Sometime soon…
Nope, it can get passed around more than 5 people, based on how much damage you/your party does, yes they are not raid bosses, which is why they die in like 2-3 min, maybe less when the maps are filled with more players, which was not the case in iCBT. It can be solo’d, it does not need more then 5 people, but it was designed to be defeated by a maps worth of players, thus the high hp, and why it took you around 5-10 min, and why you may have felt the exp reward was too little for the time spent.
I disagree that EXP rates need to be increased but i gotta say despite that i love your posts. I have never seen you be rude to someone arguing with you and you always present evidence or support for your opinions. I still disagree with you but good posts.
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Keep in mind that a majority of the players didn’t even get past 30, the poll has low feedback rates compared to how many people should have been playing and that the “it kinda sucked” option is also the “it was fine” option.