Tree of Savior Forum

UPDATED: I now support crazy and unreasonable measures against bots, except not really. Important new info has arisen!

Debate in another thread has revealed a fatal flaw in the current anti-RMT policies, and how the current trade restrictions do not perform nearly well enough to justify the problems they cause normal players. For a detailed explanation of the problem and how it might be solved, check this new thread:


We’ve all been worked up about 1 to 1 trading and bots. I myself have made posts on the subject, and even a thread about 1 to 1 trading in game. I’ve personally fought against the lack of 1 to 1 trading and item dropping as an unacceptable inconvenience.

I’ve seen a lot of arguments, some persuasive, most nonsense, for and against strangling the trade system to prevent gold selling to even be viable in ToS. I’ve given it some thought, and reflected on the games I’ve played, and how trading restrictions personally affected my play experience, and how bots have, too.

Two of my favorite games of the modern MMO era are FFXIV and PSO2. One’s subscription based, the other is F2P with uncannily similar restrictions to what we’re fearing will happen to ToS.

FFXIV has a robust market, expansive crafting systems, free and easy trade for everyone, and playing its markets is one of the most engaging things I can do in that game. I love every part of that. … But it’s also a stinking pit of gold spam tells, bots, and exploitation. It’s everywhere, and FFXIV’s GM teams lack the authority, the manpower and the resources to deal with the problem. Square Enix won’t give it to them because the gold sellers pay for accounts. They crunched the numbers and decided they’d lose more money than they’d save. Players put up with it, players don’t talk with their wallets by quitting, and the gold sellers and botters have free reign over FFXIV.

PSO2, on the other hand, doesn’t let you trade with anyone who isn’t using their version of the token system. You can’t even sell things on the market without having a token. You can actually earn the tokens through accumulated logins - this feature prevents most of the f2p bots from getting into the market. They’re caught before they can accumulate enough of the login “points” to earn a 7 day market token. I sold a lot of good stuff to vendors in PSO2, before I managed to jump through the insane hoops foreign players had to jump to even give them money. But I was happy and the game was fun even when I was broke.

Part of PSO2’s financial success and relative lack of botting comes from the culture. You have to go through a battery of japanese captchas to even register an account - and even when you’re in, Sega JP has an alarming tendency to “accidentally” configure their servers to ignore foreign IPs. PSO2’s got a good f2p model - the best in the business, I’m convinced - but I don’t think an international release would have fared so well, particularly against bots. Sega seems to agree - and that’s why the promised PSO2 english version never materialized.

ToS is in every botter’s crosshairs. They’re all looking back on RO as the good old days - when you could just run your farms forever and not expect the GM teams to have the resources or the ability to stop you. They think ToS will suffer from the same, and based on what I’ve seen so far, they’re probably right.

Botting can’t be stopped. Not through automation - superior automation can always be created to beat the safeguards. There’s no hope there - not without dedicated, educated, teams of in-house employees paid well enough to care about their jobs and provided with robust tools to monitor player movement data, login patterns, server ip logs, transaction histories, in the grand sense and down to fine details. Blizzard does that - and they’re the only ones I know of who are truly aggressive about it. They have enormous resources behind them - and it still isn’t perfect. But it’s unreasonable to think IMC can step up to that level as a fledgling company.

So all of that makes me think: Forget 1 to 1. Forget my token trading. Forget all of the things I said about trading with your friends. I take it all back. Do what you have to do to stop the bots by making the simple act of trading so frustrating and impractical that no one can work out a good system from getting silver from point A to point B.

You have my total support, IMC! Be draconian about it. I’ll take a bullet if it goes through me and hits a gold farmer. I’ll enjoy the game with the restrictions.

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I just vomited. PSO2 ruined PSO i want ToS to be as far from that garbage as possible.

So you didn’t like the gameplay, therefore, harsh measures against bots are bad, eh?

I liked PSO’s atmosphere, story and mechanics better than PSO2’s, but it existed on a completely different internet. Your reply is meaningless.

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I liked the game play

This bullshit is why i told them to go ■■■■ them selves. In a mmo i want to interact with other players that includes us running our market and deals how we see fit

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So you’d rather play with tons of bots, then?

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If having bots around means i can trade with my friends and use crafting classes to fund my other characters yea sure i don’t care if they are around. I liked ff14 and WoW for the time periods i played and they had bots/gold sellers, and they are doing just fine.

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All right - I’m not going to try to convince you what to want. It is what it is.

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Why do you hate bots so much.

I guess what Stephen Hawking said about bots is coming true.

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Why don’t you hate bots so much? Same reasons as the other guy? Ya’ll could save us all some time by making actual replies instead of a short face-pound on your keyboard.

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Hm, no matter the outcome of this thread, that is a interesting bit of history. Have a like for broadening my knowledge.

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Probably because they haven’t really done anything that is affecting me in a bad way in life.

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Then TOS has a good chance of being an educational experience for you.

I hate bots because of constant, unending gold spam, tanked market economies, and the fact that people who cheat in games personally disgust me.

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If you ask me, being able to freely trade items/silver amongst friends and being able to help new players out ( who haven’t yet paid for a token ), and having no restrictions to trading on the market and trading between my own characters is something I want more than a bot-free game.

If you say “sacrifice all these things and there will be no bots”, my response is “no thanks”. Bots are annoying. Having your ability to interact the with the community via trading being severely hampered is incredibly frustrating. Not being able to trade silver to my own characters from utility money-making characters on my same account ( Squire, Alche, Pardoner ) is really frustrating. It makes me not even want to invest the time into making these characters, because the gain is questionable.

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This is the thing you dont get. Bots are parasites, and just like real life there are ways to get rid of them without quarantining a whole population until they are gone. Because you know damn well the only 100% sure way to get rid of parasites is to not have a host. That means no game, no bots.

Now this is where experiences from many MMO’s come into account, not just 2. Most of the times where you take a little bit of player liberty and features just to get rid of a few bots, all you will be doing is killing the player population along with the bots.

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Yeah, I can respect that. Will you feel the same way when all the good mobs are being hogged by bots, so you change zones, only to find more bots? Will you feel the same way when your chat log is 90% PLZ HAPPYGOLDS 4U .COM~!~?

Did you guys play Ragnarok Online? Do you remember just how unbelievably bad it was? Do you remember the official server having more bots than players? I do. It was a god damned nightmare.

Don’t say, yeah, I played RO, if it was all on private servers. Those never really saw zeny farming ops.

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Sacrifice all your rights and freedoms and i offer you no crime?

Deal? lol

You should interview at FOX news. You’d fit right in. Rights and freedoms my ass - so you have to use market instead of 1 to 1, and your friends have to earn gil from quests. Boo hooooo my freedooooms americcaaaaaaaa

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  1. Im not from america

  2. IMC has price limits for each item on the market so you cannot freely determine your own pricing

  3. currently the majority of this threads responses suggest your as big of a joke as FOX news.

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I’ve played many games with bots and to be honest I have zero problems whatsoever with bots who just want to make money. Bots have an economic role that doesn’t really bring anything good or bad unless there’s an item duplication problem. Otherwise there isn’t any problem there.

The only bad thing that bots bring in an MMO are combat exp grinders. Is that really a bad thing, because I’m for SURE that if multiple people want to grind in the same area they’ll all be stealing mobs from other people the same way a bot does. Especially if they themselves know monster spawn points.

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I liked you better when we had that nice little agreed to disagree going on. Now you’re just running your mouth. I already know you don’t like my idea, you already know I don’t like yours, and we both already know there’s nothing either of us can say to convince the other. So why are you here?

@ Loli
I don’t talk with people who support the “economic role” of botting in games. You don’t deserve to talk to me about games.