Tree of Savior Forum

Tree of Punishment [Too Many Restrictions to be Fun]

Like many of you, I’m hoping this game shines. Unfortunately. A week in, which is typically enough in any online game to get a grasp of how things are or to be, it’s pretty pale and filled with obvious flaws already. Flaws that I can’t imagine were simply over looked but just too lazy to have designed the game properly for, things that were just thrown in without careful planning on the developer’s end (The type of planning that players are somehow expected to have to be explained). The example I’m talking about is the GvG tower events, they’re a big mess in general. The other big mess is the rest of the game, you feel as if you’re being punished every step of the way.

Instead of talking about issues directly, this time lets discuss how the restrictions in this game really affect us. The bottom line.

-While other MMOs encourage alt creation through ease, you’re discouraged here. With messy systems clogging up your ease of purchasing gear or moving silver to your own alt.

-With limited dungeon entries, the game discourages more gameplay. An oddity, an although other games have similar restrictions, this is typically something only for their end-game content, to restrict gearing too quickly. However their end-game content tends to be a much higher standard of involvement. Things like RO, WoW, Rift, Archeage, etc with weekly resets and with a huge player base involvement. 10+ all the way to hundreds.

-The loot system needs re working if the current restrictions remain. No player, let alone a party, wants to feel punished (through potential loss or trade count loss) simply for having a drop that is picked up by either an unintended party member or wanting to share a drop in general. Even the scenario of waiting for the loot timer to expire and having a wanting party member pick something up to circumvent those restrictions is unwise due to the fact anyone else can then pick up said item.

-The nature of experience and level restrictions is undesirable in general. Now this might be a lot more personal, and less objective, but how exp scales and how the game is designed, there simply are bottlenecks built into the current leveling curve. Periods where you’ll find very little to grind while having to depend on questing, dungeons, and missions to get through them. The fact that players begin to be penalized for killing monsters ABOVE their level of 5 and below their level of 10 is a bit of a dated concept. Especially the above part. Perhaps to curve “Power Leveling” but again this seems to be a punishment to the general RPG population. Where players would love the extra challenge for some extra reward, we’re punished yet again for a seemingly designed system to discourage foul play of some sort.
To continue, this experience issue should be linear like any other system in this game. If a player can manage to find grinding areas to their benefit, even if it’s severely below their level or above, they should be rewarded for managing to do so. The loot in this game encourages non-linear grinding, that is some items require much lower level items to craft. With typically low drop rates, a player is punished if they decide to grind it out on a high level character, their time is “wasted”, especially so if their desired item decides never to grace them with their presence.

-Back to the first point of alt creation, with a game with SO many diverse choices of class combinations. An MMO should encourage time sink, that is replay ability. Again, ToS does so in a punishing fashion in this next point. There is no way to reset class choices. After spending hours, days, weeks, on one character, you can totally bouch it up and have that character become completely useless to you. And the answer, the only choice, is to quit it and reroll. Though this is typical of any game, where in ToS class rank choices are the equivalent of picking an actual class. However there are some truly abysmall class combinations in ToS. Things that simply have zero synergy and won’t ever be useful. You’d be hard pressed to find the same for any other game where you couldn’t “spec” or swap out essentially on the fly to something else. Again the point here is not that it isn’t wonderful for all these amazing combinations, but at the end of the day it’s a combination that essentially makes one character, one class. And it’s cemented, and the difference between ToS and other RPGs is that there are truly useless class combos. Other games, like old DnD classics, there’s a role for a gnome warrior or a troll sorcerer. They have pros and cons. There’s no place for a Cleric Krivus Paladin Druid. It’ll be fairly useless. Just like many critics would claim that forums are the vocal minority. An even narrower minority might be those that do research into the game. They’ll play with most of the game a mystery to them. And although the hardcore will reroll a better combination after gaining experience, the casual may just quit and move onto something that doesn’t feel like a waste of time. After all nothing promises them their next choice won’t be superceded by another after more discovery.

Gamers have to understand that the lifeblood of any game isn’t the hardcore, it’s the casual. The reality is that games need to be casual enough for the mainstream and it’s the hardcore that are on borrowed time. You’ll only have a game to enjoy so long as there’s enough of a mainstream market to sustain it.

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The game discourages interacting with other people in general.

Selling/Buying stuff, use the market personal interactions have more limitations.

And ques being solo only.

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Agreed. And if people continue to encourage players to simply get up and leave if they don’t like the game. They’ll soon find themselves in yet another dead game. The issues and restrictions aren’t even part of the game, they’re a lot of things that were slapped on to combat one aspect of gameplay or RMT. the game itself is fine.

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Supposedly combat RMT, though it does little to nothing.

Yep in beta before they started restricting everything the game was fun.

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I just hope this isn’t like any typical Korean-Ran MMO where they disregard any feedback that isn’t eastern because of xenophobia/racism… cause just cause it works in South Korea doesn’t mean it works over for the rest of us.

Extremly nice post… so let me add something since psychology is my stuff… there’s an educational system that is called “prize and punishment”… at least this is the best way i am able to translate it in english.

It’s usually used into the education of childrens (even tho it’s quite clear that for many people in this community it was excecuted very badly but wathever), but it is proved to be a working mechanism at every stage of human life.

Making a long story short, the human mind works kind of like this:

“if you get a prize for something you have done then it’ll be much more easier for you to repeat that action, if you get punished for an action you’ve done then it’ll be harder for you to repeat that action”.

Of course this is said in a very simple way and there would be much more to say about it but now we’re talking about a game so i don’t see the point int going deeper into the subject.

Anyway… as you stated ToS is, sadly, built in a way that a player, instead of beeing given a prize for the actions he does, is punished way too often.

Psychologically speaking so, if the player get punished for the act of playing the game, it’s only a matter of time until that player stop playing because that’s just how human brain work… punish someone long enough for an action and the chance that he/she will stop doing that action rise every single time.

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It’s a Korean game. They can do whatever they want aka, not have ever released it into the US or internationally at all.

But you keep crying about what -you- want and what -you- think is the best for the company.

Could have just said Positive and Negative reinforcement, how you train dogs lol.

i wouldn’t be surprised if these things don’t work in Korea either though. And although there’s a general concept that Koreans love hard core gaming. The only hardcore thing about ToS right now is that it’s an MMO that you’ve got to play on your own.
Bosses aren’t hard. Drop rates are okay (just that you’re limited to how many times you’d enter ALL dungeons). There isn’t exactly much skill to playing the game in any of the genres. Lots of ranged skills auto aim. While Melee suffers a little (typical of most RPGs, designers don’t compensate Melee enough, a personal thing maybe).

Well it is kind of the same really… and it really is a mechanism that constantly works for humans too, just way more complex :wink:

Wow, this is literally some of the most ignorant crap I’ve ever read.

Yeah it’s a Korean game but the developers of most Korean games usually refuse to utilize western player feedback despite it being good and catered toward players of that audience. They stick with carbon copying their main version and then the western version starts to completely fail because the changes were designed around what the native Korean players wanted. Changes that would be unwelcome to the majority of western players. You want a dead game that badly? Cause there’s a good reason tons of Korean developed MMOs don’t do so hot once they get published for English players and it has tons of evidence and games proving it.

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THANKS FOR THIS REPLY! It actually made me possible for me to use, for the first time, this video to answer you… i love you man ^^:

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I think you hit the nail right on the head. At the end that’s how our mind works. though there’s sorts of punishments that push us to be better, low drop rates or things like that which will subtly encourage us to play more or “harder”. The punishments ToS adds is just frustrating.

Trade. Potential loss. Trade count loss. Time loss because of a bad class combination with no way of even back tracking a single step once you’ve clicked the accept on advancement quest. Partying up gives bonus exp, but again dealing with loot is a frustration, more so for non-damage dealers apparently. Exp loss for being too high or low, when the experience gains should simply be linear and the pros and cons inherent.

The only way to really know is if you have someone who can translate what the Korean player base as a majority is saying. Yeah I definitely noticed that the game strongly discourages party-play(sans dungeons and end game) and that’s it’s more of a hardcore competition then anything. Drop rates could be better but they don’t necessarily need tweaked at least in my opinion… but that’s just my opinion.

I dunno about the melee-paths, I’ve only used a Cleric(Int based), Wiz(Pyro) and Archer(Ranger)… I’ve seen they can kind of compensate for the fact they can actually sprint unlike other jobs but I’ve heard that their role gets reduced to tank no matter how they built later on.

yeah… that’s the punishment given when you actually make a BAD action… like for example if you’re level 10 and try to solo a lvl 100 boss you die, you break all your equipment, and you lose 10% of your money… this is a punishment that’ll make you better and stop you from doing unconsiderate things again ^^

well grinding games are not for everyone… for lot of people the simple fact of having to kill stuff for more than 1 hour will be a negative punishment anyway… that depends on the different personalities of everyone tho.

nothing to add to this ^^

Posting videos or images to people’s reply only shows how bad and terrible you are at debating.

But you can’t debate the facts, sorry.

@svalinn85
Lol I love that clip. Movie is hilarious. Gonna need to watch some of Adam Sandler’s good stuff later.

But the class balances are a whole new topic. Let’s just say that generally any online game where latency plays a part, Melee desperately needs stuns or at the very least slows. Blizzard found this to be true, any other game that has the classic Melee represents this as well. And what I’ve witnessed already, position lag exists in Tree of Savior. The oddity is that archers and wizards have a lot in their kit to keep targets at bay, as if they were somehow much squisher than other base classes (they’re not, because linear con tells us so, and linear armor choices that is available to everyone). Yet a lot of the non swordsman (clerics) class choices have no mobility and no slows. Coupled with position lag, there’s hardly ever going to be a place where Melee is more optimal or preferable to ranged. But that’s just typical of most MMORPGs. Hard to hold it against IMC

IKR… too bad people don’t know what “laugh at it” means and just answer to it trying to bring you down xD

Is your version of an argument or debate coming in here and telling us that we’re crying and whining? That’s all you’ve done so far.
With a grasp towards claiming the “popularity” argument, that our opinion is unpopular (it’s not). Any one who claims to know how to debate would know all their logical fallacies. Hint, popularity is a logical fallacy.
And in case you don’t know what a logical fallacy is, for the laymen, it’s when something sounds logical to be true, but it’s based on essentially a “gut” feeling that doesn’t make it necessarily true.

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You make very valid points about balancing it out and to be fair we don’t know what Rank 8, 9 and 10 classes will be like although really this sounds like something needed from the get-go. A lot of games have balance issues though and I mean although archers and wiz can keep targets at bay if a bad lag spike hits they’re basically good as dead if they’re specing for DPS and not survivability. So the same lag that can screw over a swordsman can also screw over a DPS just… well in different ways.

I do agree they should have stuns or crippling mechanics though but right now ToS has… larger issues that should be focused on. These make a class a bit lackluster but the swordsman has a role in the game that’s needed so people won’t stop playing them thankfully… Also I thought Cleric melee DOES have a stun, I remember reading a perk for them that can be upgraded… it’s optional but it is there.

Like you said though, this is a typical MMO problem.