Tree of Savior Forum

Token players ability to blacklist bots

Here’s a suggestion:

We the players, are always the first ones to encounter bots. Hundreds if not thousands of players, run into bot spam in town everyday. Botting is obvious and obnoxious. This is even more annoying when we are questing only to see that the map is filled with blonde ponytailed clerics just whacking away at everything.

Bots should be dealt with by the players and not only by the developers or the company. They don’t have the manpower or resources to. I don’t know why gaming companies are still running decades behind in terms of dealing with botters. The community is what makes up the game. Shouldn’t the community also have some power in dealing with issues like these? This gives GM’s more time to deal with the actual RMT’s instead of wasting their time with the bots while the botting is dealt with the players. It’s a win/win scenario.

If enough reports are stacked onto a player(bot), it should place them in a “blacklisted” channel. In here, they can still play but only interact with other blacklisted players. Think of this as a soft ban. They are still around, but out of our sights at least and not kill stealing everything.

When placed in a blacklisted channel, it gives enough time for GM’s to start looking at these “players” and verify if they are legit or not. Botters will be banned, douchebags may get their blacklist repealed and whatnot.

If you are somehow mistakenly placed in a blacklisted channel because of trolls, just send a ticket to support and repeal your blacklist in under 24 hours. Player history will be logged when reporting another player and whoever unfairly reported you without a good reason or evidence will be banned themselves.

This makes this system have consequences if others try to abuse it. Players who continue to false report will be warned, then banned for an example.

I think this is really the best solution in getting these bots out of our way. It doesn’t solve RMT, but it’s a start somewhere.

Here’s a short summary of how this works overall:

  • Players can only report one player, once a day. This is set in place so it cannot be spammed or abused.

  • When players report another player(bot), it should give a warning dialog indicating that they are about to report that player(bot) and there will be drastic consequences with a false report. Players should be able to hit OK or Cancel at that point.

  • Reporting players should be locked behind a Premium Token. This may change, but I feel like this is necessary so that trolls don’t take advantage of this feature and end up reporting everybody they dislike.

  • When players(bots) are stacked up with a least 10 or more reports, they will automatically be switched into a blacklisted channel. This channel is hidden and inaccessible by normal players. Blacklisted players can interact and play with other blacklisted players.

  • Blacklisted players will remain in the blacklisted channels until a GM revokes their blacklist. This allows GM’s to check if the player was a bot or a legit player.

  • Players who try to abuse this system and report innocent players will be blacklisted themselves.

ALTERNATE SOLUTION THAT ISN’T AS HARSH:

  • If the above is too harsh, allow the blacklist to only place players(bots) into the last channels (such as channel 50). Blacklisted players will not be able to switch channels, but regular players can still join that channel if they wish.

I think the world of tanks’ reporting system works better that the one you suggested. It has 15 daily reports but reports from single player don’t affect anything. Only when enough reports from different players have accumulated, you start getting longer and longer bans and finally permanently banned. There are also different reasons you can report a player so it makes it easier for the GMs to categorize which banned players can even try to appeal. And it makes troll reports harder to accumulate on one player since there has to be multiple reports for the same reason.

Of course the reporting categories and thresholds have to be different but the general idea seems to be working rather well.

Also, to avoid guilds abusing the system, the reports have to from different time periods, not a burst of false reports after some troll asked on a shout chat to ban this particular “bot”. And abusing the system should get the reporters banned/punished like you suggested. Maybe removing the ability to report ever again could be a nice one to add too.

Edit: The problem with your alternative solution would be that botters start farming on that last channel, since it would be pointless to report people there and then they would just switch channels when needed to deliver the silver to someone buying it. This would actually help the gold sellers.

I think it would be fine just limited to once a day. I see the same bots over and over day after day anyway.

Also, I highly doubt any guilds are going to want to get themselves banned. Anybody with a level 15 character could be the biggest douchebag and try to get you to ban him, but if you are in a guild, you are likely over level 200. Who wants to risk getting their level 200 characters banned because of some level 15 troll?

I don’t think the system I suggested can be easily abused, especially if it’s limited to token players. But thanks for the input.

Bots have better buying power so getting tokens for them isnt big problem. You report one bot, 10 bots report you. Who gets the short end of the stick?

But guilds have the resources to make alt accounts and get them the tokens needed. Then they could just report people at tactical moments to remove them from the game for short periods of time.

You’re assuming bots can issue reports. All of the bots I’ve checked have no tokens. Unless bots can click your character, type your name then send a report, I find this extremely hard to do. BTW, what bot wants to log themselves under a report issue? They are literally asking to be banned by a GM.

Also, bots run into thousands of players on the servers daily. The chances of 10 different bots stacking all reports on 1 player, which by the way is limited to once a day is nearly impossible. The number of reports filed can also be upped to 20 or 30. Also, since it is fairly easy to just ticket support and have them repeal your blacklist, it’s not really that big of a deal. You aren’t banned, just blacklisted. You can still play the game, you will just be in a channel full of bots… which is what we currently have anyway.

So I don’t really see what you’re concerned about.

Then system is inefficient. Imagine yourself running into bot farm of 10-20 bots. Who would you report? How other players will be able to report same ONE bot to send him to blacklist?

Also you overestimate player to bot ratio.

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Do you honestly think that 10 or 20 different people are all going to make alt accounts, pay $20 bucks on each of them for a token just to report a guy they dislike? That’s like over $200 or $300 just to blacklist 1 guy. 1 guy who can get his black list repealed in under 24 hours.

As stated before, if you are innocently blacklisted, send a support ticket and have your blacklist repealed in under 24 hours. GM’s will just ban those alt accounts and those people will have just thrown away hundreds of dollars. Seriously.

Another problem with that channel full of bots that came to my mind: Someone could purposely get themselves banned without a reason, grab the farmed silver from bots and try to appeal after that. Of course this can be prevented by GMs checking your balance before and after getting yourself on that channel but it could get easily flooded this way and any appealing system would stop working then. You can imagine the gold sellers doing whatever they can to remove this system to free their silver they’ve botted.

Yes, compared to months and years they spend playing on their main account, grinding an alt enough to get the silver to buy that token isn’t that big of an investment if it helps gaining significant and unfair advantage over the other guilds during events. There will be guild vs guild drama too and people might just want to revenge some player for example.

These systems have to always made pretty much abuse proof because there are all kinds of players. Some are stupid enough to buy from those gold sellers after all.

why are you all talking about
BOT reporting BACK at an Anonymous report? are they relatives of scarlet witch or something?

Don’t include me on that all -list, I just thought it would be pointless to reply on it :smile:

I’m not entirely sure what just came to your mind. You realize, we currently are in a server full of bots right? Bots are still farming silver.

The blacklist just sorts the apples and oranges. It’s a softban, literally moving a player(bot) to channel 8 for an example. They can still play, they can still interact with other players, they are just in another channel. It’s no different from you switching from Channel 1 to 2 to avoid some bots in your area.

Also with the guild thing… I don’t know if you just have a cynical view on guilds or what, but majority of the guilds are not PvP based nor do they guild war. I’ve ran guilds, played with some of the hardest core PvP guild players and I have never seen anything to that extreme you described. And I’ve played in some pretty horrible communities.

But let me ask you, can you get 10 or 20 of your friends to pay $20 to join you in on banning someone you dislike? If yes, you either have some loyal ass friends or you’re full of it.

You either give power to the players or give power to the bots. Your choice.

I thought I explained myself rather clearly and easily to understand? :confused:

As I said, when botters are mostly gathered on one channel and everybody knows that, they stop caring about bots there and they wouldn’t bother going there to report them. This means botters would be free to go on with their business without any risks of their accounts getting deleted which makes it easier for them. If they never get reported there, they would be free to change their channels later. Erm… I just explained the same thing again but hopefully you understand what I’m trying to say if you read it twice :slight_smile:

That “majority of guilds” part is your keyword for understanding this one. There are always guilds of misfits out there because they often aren’t wanted on other guilds. And what part of gathering silver on alt accounts to buy those tokens from the market you didn’t understand? The same people can farm the needed silver on multiple accounts and let the tokens just wait there for the possible cases when they feel like revenging someone or when there’s big enough event price to use them.

There are people out there who think this is just clever thinking and they don’t feel bad about it. You’ve never heard about unfair competition among the most pvp oriented guilds on other games? The drama gets unbelievable sometimes on them, to the point I find these really amusing to read about.

And I’m not saying I would think trying to abuse these are any way good ideas but that some players are really short-sighted and opportunistic. And you should take this into account and think these situations beforehand and not just hope that people wouldn’t abuse it just because it’s not right thing to do.

As I said, when botters are mostly gathered on one channel and everybody knows that, they stop caring about bots there and they wouldn’t bother going there to report them. This means botters would be free to go on with their business without any risks of their accounts getting deleted which makes it easier for them. If they never get reported there, they would be free to change their channels later. Erm… I just explained the same thing again but hopefully you understand what I’m trying to say if you read it twice :slight_smile:

Yeah… they would stop caring about reporting those bots because those bots are blacklisted and reported. That’s the point? You clearly cannot understand something very simple here.

The thing is, you’re cynical and talking about unrealistic what if scenarios that could only and rarely exist under extreme scenarios. This is called paranoia and you likely don’t get out too much or don’t understand how communities work. Unless you can point to me where a guild has collaborated and spent nearly $300 just to ban someone, I would like to see your example of these cases.

I on the other hand can point to some examples. Look under the report section of this forums. What do you see? I don’t see people reporting other players, I see 99% of the posts reporting bots and 99% of the players complaining about trades. I don’t see 99% of the players telling all of us how unfair the community is reporting them to be banned.

You’re more concerned about players trying to abuse a system, rather than the gold sellers and bots themselves. Do you see how short sighted you are? If not, I cannot help you.

I see your reading comprehension is not on the level I should bother continuing this discussion any further with you.

At least others will get my points which need to be thought out more and can possibly come up with solutions to tackle them. As I see it, your current suggestion isn’t even worth considering to implement it in the game.

aka, I don’t understand your suggestion, therefore I don’t support it.

Move along now.

this will simply lead to more bots in town, so that there will never be enough players to report them. i play for many hours a day, and could legitimately report dozens of bots. (before the lv40 shout restriction, i could have reported even more.) this will lead to the system simply becoming pointless, and ignored. i’m not going to waste my time deciding -which- bot is most worth reporting if i login and there’s 20 bots in town.

yea, but if it takes a certain number of reports to flag the account, then this is a self-solving problem.
besides, how does this stop token users from abusing it in exactly the same way?
additionally, if players could only report 1 person per day… seems like it would not be worth wasting it on someone that isn’t a bot.

this seems unnecessarily redundant. first they would have to create this channel and administer it. secondly, what about the other normal issues of playing, like partying?

all in all, this is just a bad version of what they’re already planning to implement.

it will probably work like so:

when you right click a character/name in chat, there will be a new option: “Report Bot” (or Report Spammer, w/e same thing)
when you click that, a notification will be sent to the automated system with date & time, possibly a message from the player, possibly including a screenshot.
the system will simply record the report, and add/increase a counter on the account reported.
at the end of each time-period (daily? weekly? depends on how severe the problem is maybe)… GMs will be notified, with a report of any accounts that have a significant number of reports.
Based on frequency/severity of reports, information included with the report, etc, the account will simply get slapped with a ban right then and there.

always important to include useful and relevant info about the person you’re reporting; GMs aren’t really going to do anything if the person is reported for just standing there.

btw, @Nyyppa makes good points. some people are just —holes. and some people are just excessively driven to win, regardless of what they compete in. few alt accounts, a couple of days of farming, plenty of silver to buy tokens. and then just before the major PvP event, suddenly the opposing guild logs in to find half their members blacklisted and unable to join in. sure the bans will be revoked as soon as customer service can get around to it… but some good games can take days to get that. i’ve played games with iffy customer service, where players “laugh” about that one character of theirs that’s been unable to login for the last 3 years, and customer service is still “working on it”.

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So… being able to report bots = more bots in town? Your logic doesn’t make any sense here bud.

You do not seem to understand that the point isn’t for 1 player to make a difference. It’s a combination effort by the community. Just because you think that your 1 report doesn’t mean anything therefore this system is a bad idea is short sighted thinking. The whole point of this system prevents 1 person such as yourself from stacking report abuses on players. Do you understand how a democracy works?

Funny thing is, you guys can’t really find any holes in the system I’m proposing so you’re nitpicking out “oh but what if there are a million trolls on the server” kinda deal.

Reality is, there aren’t. Nobody is going to be wasting $20 to try to blacklist you and end up being banned for it. IP addresses are easily checked and so is payment history. Again, let me know when you can find this magical guild full of 30 players who will outright blacklist you for no reason.

And the system I’m proposing isn’t even new. I literally took the idea from a Japanese MMO that utilizes this vote kick system. It’s not abused, wasn’t abused when it came to the US and it was a pure PvP guild war game with plenty of salt. So the notion that this system cannot work is just your own paranoia of fear. It does work and games have shown to use it before.

more like a mistaken assumption; being able to report bots does not automatically equal less bots.
dumping them into a “blacklist” channel, where someone can just walk by all the screens every half hour and replace all the blacklisted bots will mean they’ll use even more bots to outpace the blacklsting.

of -course- it takes a community effort. my point was that only allowing 1 report per day is completely crippling that effort. suppose everyone just happens to report different bots that day… then instead of each bot having plenty of reports, and all being flagged, only a couple of them reach the critical level of reports.

10,000 people could all report 1 jackass (and if he’s getting that many reports, he’s PROBABLY doing something to deserve it, but anyway)… but if there’s no evidence, even after the GM’s research the case, nothing will happen to him. THIS is literally the point of having the GM’s review each flagged case.

is this your first time meeting people in an unmoderated situation?
seriously, there are plenty of people who would gladly do this if they thought it would bring them an edge. if you’ve already spent $500 spamming enchant scrolls, and another $500 buying the cash-shop upgrades, what’s another $100 on a couple of spare accounts to get that extra little edge on top? don’t even try and say people would never spend that much on a game, i personally spent over $1000 on cash shop items over about 8 months in a different game. a friend in my guild in that game was auto-blocked by the payment system twice in the same month for hitting the spending limit in the game. (something like $500 USD in that single month.) and these aren’t examples of hyper-competitive players, either. we were buying fashion items.

and again; that’s assuming they’re even spending cash. a really dedicated player won’t take more than a day to grind up the silver to just buy a token off the AH.
you say we can’t find any holes… but ignore the holes we point out.

i never said it -cannot- work; i said that, as you describe it, there are a lot of holes to exploit (but you carefully ignored those to make your point)… and it adds nothing useful to the system they are already planning to implement.

also, what game are you drawing your inspiration from?

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Again, you seem to not able to comprehend this. 1 report per person a day. Do you understand what this even means? It means you can report 1 player, once a day. It prevents players to repeatedly stack reports on people they dislike. Bots run into hundreds if not thousands of players a day. This system is set in place so that bots can be marked by hundreds of different players because those same bots are in the same areas for days if not weeks.

There’s a difference between players spending $500 to enchant their items compared to spending $500 just to blacklist 1 guy who can get their blacklist revoked in under a day. If you cannot see that difference, I simply cannot help you understand it. Would you pay $20 a day to put 1 strike on a player let alone convince 20 of yours “friends” to do it as well? If yes, you either have some loyal ass friends or your full of it.

You’re talking about what if scenarios because of your own paranoia and fear. I want to see you band a guild of 20~30 players and convince them all to grind 500k worth of silver or spend $20 just to blacklist 1 guy. Keep in mind, you would need 20~30 people to blacklist just 1 player. You need another 40~60 if you wanna blacklist a 2nd player.

Also, it’s easy for GM’s just to disable blacklisting during guild wars so your entire concern is pointless. Lastly, the game I’m referencing is Fantasy Earth Zero which had 50vs50 guild wars. It had a vote kick option to be able to kick players out of the wars, but it was never abused. People only ever kicked out laggers and hackers. There were no bots in this game at all. You make assumptions that you’re ignorant of. I’ve played plenty of games with self moderation and they work.

Seems like you lack the understanding of how MMO communities work. I’ve been playing MMO’s for over 15 years now. I understand more than you how this works.