I would add that most CAN’T play their own main. To make a random example, I’ve seen Quarrel Shooters not dropping pavises in ET taunt floors, even in emergency situations. QS is not made of Running Shot only! It’s normal that if you don’t really explore your characters’ potential you will think everything plays the same unless there’s some blatant difference.
Yes, because difference is important and the more difference there is, the better.
People say wow classes all play the same but ToS is somehow presented as the epitome of gameplay diversity with drastic differences between circles?
Also, having to follow a role meta (SR3 for farming, Falconer for CM, Flecher for bossing back in the days of not being completely powercrept to hell) doesn’t mean that there’s a big gameplay difference. Unlike wow, this game doesn’t have anything even remotely deep or complex, no different resource management mechanics (SP bar only with infinite SP practically), no aggro management, no heal management, etc. Even the gameplay of healers in wow has more variety than in ToS (small heals, big heals, HoTs, etc).
Also, also, PoE have very little gameplay variety too, more often than not it’s just one movement spell and one or two damage spells. But builds still can be very diverse in terms of theorycrafting and visuals, unlike ToS, yet again because forced meta.
Please name a game in which there’s high differentiation between classes and how they play then, I beg of you.
Falconer has aiming to expand hitboxes and combo with skills like Arrow Sprinkle from Mergen or Hail from Elementalist, just to name some examples; what other class in the archer tree or any other gives you that?
Dievdyrbis have statues which give buffs to the party and attack; Sorcerers can summon bosses and use them both as pets or as additional sources of skills; Wugushi use dots to do damage; Fletchers spam low cd single target skills; and so on and so forth. There’s like 80-90 classes in game, and many play in a unique way. Denying this is nothing short of asinine. There are gameplay differences. If I were to follow your logic, then ANY class plays the same in ANY game: clerics just heal, wizards, archers and swordsmen attack. Oversimplifying stuff is the only way to make your logic work, which means it doesn’t work. Surprise.
You contradict yourself in the span of one line, and then pull another logical fallacy. Kindly go back to school, maybe.
You confuse build/class variety and gameplay variety, ESL-kun.
There’s like 80-90 classes in game, and many play in a unique way.
There are some slight difference, I’m not saying everything plays and feels exactly the same. SOME play in a unique way. Summoners are indeed pretty different from elelocks and other standard casters. Hakkas and Rogues are different from standard archers.
But wugushis don’t play differently from fletchers just because they use poison. That’s practically just a visual difference. If you have played wugushi, you’ll easily be able to play fletcher, falconer, qs, sr without changing much to your gameplay. There’s no such a thing as a “good Wugushi player” because a good wugushi player is also a good fletcher player or any other archer player with a few exceptions.
ToS doesn’t even have a dedicated healer role for god’s sake. Priest is like the only circle that can heal differently than just dropping heal tiles every once in a while.
And that is only in theory. In practice, you don’t play special snowflake builds like Wugushi, unless of course you play alone for yourself at your own pace in some kind of autistic mode or if you have people willing to carry your deadweight ass. Again, because forced meta.
Please name a game in which there’s high differentiation between classes and how they play then, I beg of you.
Off-topic. It all started from this:
People say wow classes all play the same but ToS is somehow presented as the epitome of gameplay diversity with drastic differences between circles?
Which I strongly disagree with.
WoW is straight trinity design so idk I disagree with role variety. I was a hardcore raider up to mid-cataclysm. Very few fights required a certain setup, so when they showed up they were cockblocks for that reason alone (4HM, Eredar Twins, M’uru for example)
Imc should rework most encounters and pve contents of the game to allow 10 players parties sizes so the majority won’t get screwed by the “meta”.
Most new players don’t even look at these kind threads they are too busy playing the game and finding out for themselves than from player who write a wall of text about why they quit.
Think about it you start a new game right,of course they are going be people who loves the game and say more positive than negative stuff and then we have the people who hate or feel title and say mostly negative stuff.
You believe a brand new player is going spend hours reading wall of text of complaints over playing the game?
I do, mostly from reviewers and player feedbacks. I still get into the game though to see for myself but yeah I still do my research beforehand.
Exaggeration ^
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I do my research as well but I definitely skip wall of complaints, even more when it’s carried away with doomposting and comparison based on opinion alone (which doesn’t include the other side and/or conflicting opinions that doesn’t actually apply*) instead of a proper feedback that gives insight about the game.
*Examples:
1: Compare ToS to Bless online and complain about ToS 1:1 trades being locked with tokens, then Bless online still have no 1:1 trading system at all on other versions. -> Troll complaint, skip.
2: Complain that “no one listens” when STAFFs actually answers topics and pass stuff to Devs. -> Troll complaint, skip.
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Looks like solid complaints to me. He did warn that he would offend the fanboys in his defense.
when will this thread die? 
“That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons, even death may die.”
We are speaking about build and class variety, if anything YOU’re the off topic one lel
You never installed this game, I get it.
What is priest c3
Please, stop embarrassing yourself
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Very solid arguments.
A class focused on consistent AoE DoT and lag friendly since you don’t need to spam skills is totally different to an Arrow Spammer class. It’s like comparing a plague doctor and a Monk.
So yep, you can be a good wugushi and a bad fletcher.
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It’s the first MMO that I’ve ever played that has no killer class.
And for you to experience a similar game experience, you have to create an archer to gain access to skills that make this gameplay possible.
But in this case you will face an extreme hatred of other players because in this game currently everything requires full area damage.
Archer is a range classes of physical damage, fragile but exploiting to deal distance damage as their advantage. This is the basics of gameplay that should keep to the end.
It’s a blasphemy for archers to use dagger skills, invisibility, backstab, poison…
Also it is extremely strange to see a magician tanker, controller and DPS.
They should rebalance not only classes of archers, becoming archers of truth, but also all other classes. Stating clearly its advantages and disadvantages. THERE IS NO CLASS THAT EXECUTE ALL POSITIONS AND FUNCTIONS.
One last observation … Character customization is the most precarious one I’ve ever seen.
It’s disappointing, I barely started playing and I’m already disappointed.
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elelock [wiz3 > ele3 > wl3] executes every damage role tho
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Fletchers don’t spam arrows anymore. You also aren’t just fletcher or wugu, you have some higher rank circles to complete your build. Mechanically both classes are very similar too: both use DoTs, bot are ranged dps. But none of this is even relevant since no one plays fletcher or wugu, the current meta doesn’t permit these outdated classes.
The rare times some builds might play differently is when you play solo. PD played very differently from my monk back when I was still farming old HGs.
But in practice, when you do endgame party content like CM, ET, Raid, all the potential differences between classes tend to disappear. There are few exceptions, but it’s really all about DPS, and DPS in ToS is usually just mindless skill spam in the general direction of mobs. Everyone more or less have the same tankiness, use the same resource for skill (SP), positioning and range often doesn’t even matter (archers can stay in melee range just fine).
But I guess it depends what “amount” of difference between classes you are satisfied with.
I’m not really okay with how this whole forced meta, powercreep and style over substance works in ToS though.
No. You’ve not understood the difference between Tree of Saviours “Class advancement” system and other MMORPGs “Class specialization” systems.
The biggest difference is that the basic Class idea does not limit you in TOS.
It just carves a certain path for you to tread, but you’re free to choose where your path leads you.
This is what true advancement is like, as Daoism states it: “the path is the goal”.
Peltasta e.g. is not Swordsman Class, it a path you choose to tread onto while progressing the role of a “Swordsman”. This is why there is no Class that can do everything.
Characters who can do everything is not a showcase of a bad Class system,
but a showcase of well thought-through character building from the player.
Of course, you can build a full damage meta build, but what are the merits?
You’ve only proven that you’re unable to build a well-balanced character because you want to exploit the bad game balance.
In contrast, other games are mostly enforcing specializations onto you, meaning you specialize in some specific aspects of the Class (e.g. Ragnarok Onlines Class Specialization; Acolyte can specialize to Priest [healing/buff/magic damage focus] or Monk [physical damage/self-buff/debuff focus]), often requiring to have certain skills of the base Class at certain levels to learn new abilities/skills [e.g. in Ragnarok Online, you need to have Divine Protection and Demon Bane at level 10 to unlock all Monk skills!].
The problem people have with Classes in TOS is that some are just not efficient enough on their own.
When people argue that you can balance the lack of A/B with another Class, they tend to forget that you are then no longer free in building your character if Class A requires Class B or Class C to become viable.
Classes need to be viable and self-sufficient on their own, because they are advancements, not specializations, thus have to be treated separately.
This is why rebalancing is required, so that each choice in your character build is not “bad” but good/viable and has their specific role for you.
Lmao, you’re emberassing yourself here.
Priest is not a dedicated Healer, Priest is a buffer.
Aspersion,Revive,Sacrament,Stone Skin,Blessing are all buffs.
Mass Heal is the only Healing skill that Priest features, so if you say Priest C3 is a dedicated Healer, so is Cleric (has a better Heal) and Krivis (has a more potent Heal if the party members have more CON; also can have 100% healing uptime if you rotate Aukras and Aukuras scrolls).
By your logic, Featherfoot would also be a dedicated Healer if he puts more points into Blood Curse…
It’s clear as day that you’ve never played the game even once with said characters or even Archer.
There is no difference in how these Classes work, in the end it’s still the same aim skill at monster>monster gets hit>direct damage/DOT>repeat.
It’s not as if Wugushi is like e.g. Alchemist from Dragon Nest that has to poison enemy with skill A to be able to use skill B, it’s just straight down throwing skills at enemies that then deal their damage over time instead of one time damage. Throw Gu Pot isn’t even different from Arrow Sprinkle in this sense of skill design.
Even the ressource management system is the same, Wugushi and Fletcher both requiring to carry & use items to execute their skills.
Just stating the damage over time focus of Wugushi makes it totally different from Fletcher(which also has DoT and AoE DoT damage skills), focusing more on direct damage in comparison, is wrong/short-sighted.
If you’re looking for Classes in the Archer tree with different gameplay, just look at Hunter&Sapper, they play (at least theoretically speaking, since mobs have crap A.I. and there are no real trap placement restrictions like e.g. Ragnarok Online has for its Hunter/Ranger traps) different, they are more placement- and commando-focused.
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They are similar in certain things, but not the same thing, because Fletcher use DoT, but the class is focused more on direct damage while all of Wugushi’s skills are specifically focused on DoT.
That the current meta doesn’t benefit that kind of classes doesn’t mean that nobody is using them, it’s like saying that Shamans doesn’t exist in Hearthstone because the current meta is paladin and warlock.
Again, every game will have a metagame and nothing can change that, It’s normal that when going to something serious people tend to opt for the most effective combinations and they all become very similar to each other. For example in Ragnarok doesn’t have so many classes, but they are quite customizable… however for War of Emperoum content, Monk is forced to be full Azura, Gameleader is forced to be a Rogue/Assassin/Monk/Priest, Sage is forced to be full support and nobody will play Knights in a competitive way.
The problem is not the “forced meta”, the problem is the lack of content that is intended for another type of gameplay. For example, some content that encourages the use of full support characters.
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