Tree of Savior Forum

This game disappointed me

Hi. I so I came to this game to give it a fair shot. I’m a bit of an MMO junkie having played through generations of MMOs from the days of Ragnarok Online up to the present day. To give you something of an idea of my MMO gaming experience I’ve played to end-game and beyond everything from Ragnarok Online, Tantra, RF Online, Lineage 2, World of Warcraft, Cabal Online, SWTOR, Aura Kingdom, Archeage, TERA, Guild Wars 2, and now lastly, Tree of Savior.

Based upon that, I feel I’ve built up enough experience to make an objective and fair assessment of my experience playing Tree Of Savior. I initially came upon this game looking for something to fill the time between earlier this month and the release of Bless Online and seeing as it was something I hadn’t tried and marking the many similarities between this game and Ragnarok Online I decided to give it a try.

Firstly, questing and the leveling process.

This game does nothing innovative with its questing system nor with its leveling. The quests are mostly just generic fetch or kill quests. Even the main story quests are simply variations upon these basic quest types making leveling to 360 a needlessly tedious process. Forgive me for drawing a comparison here as I feel like I may trigger some fanboys but Guild Wars 2 does an excellent job addressing this issue in terms of quest design. Guild Wars 2 has things called heroic heart quests which are essentially optional quests you can do alongside the main quests for additional exp and some karma (in-game currency for various goods). The great thing about these heart quests is most if not all of them can be done in various ways. Say you’re tasked with collecting apples. You can either a) kill monsters who may have the apples, b) shake trees to get the apples out, c) buy the apples from somewhere to give to the quest npc. You have options and that kind of diversity makes questing feel like less of a chore and more of an active experience. You feel in charge of how you’re tasked with progressing. Even the main story quest gives you options and branching paths depending upon the choices you make. This isn’t a concept isolated to Guild Wars 2 either. SWTOR puts this idea into play very well evolving the story into something personal and relatable, giving you a sense of connection to your character since his story has evolved according to the choices you’ve made. Tree of Savior already suffers from a lack of voice acting, at many times I found the story-line to be nonsensical or at the very least badly translated, and 100% of the time I found myself referring to my avatar as the “Revelator, Performer of Menial Tasks” as every goddamn NPC in the world seems to believe you to be personally responsible for gathering their dinner or chopping down goddamn trees less than 5 meters away from where they’re standing. It’s hogwash and absolute rubbish. Even the “hidden” class quests are artificially difficult. What I mean by this is many times you find yourself in a game where progression is locked behind difficult content. This is fine. Having to do a difficult quest or hunt for rare materials for a job progression quest or to progress the story is totally understandable in my opinion. But when you lock progression behind “artificial” difficulty by simply making the quest in question tedious beyond belief it’s simply bad quest design. The appraiser quest has you sitting for hours in the same spot waiting for a flower to spawn which you spend another hour watering if you’re solo. This isn’t rewarding gameplay at all. Where are the actual quest mechanics? It simply looks like an obnoxious nudge from the developer to resort to buying gacha boxes to not have to deal with the tedium of performing the quest itself. Don’t even get me started on the Bulletmarker quest. Other games have acknowledged this sort of tedium when they realize they haven’t made engaging quests and at least put in auto-pathing to save your sanity from how mindless their questing is. I don’t condone this idea at all since it makes MMOs look like mobile games but at least the feature is there when they know they’ve made terrible quests.

Exploration and immersion.

You outlevel zones much too quickly in some cases for you to truly immerse yourself in exploration, though I appreciate the creativity in some areas (elevators and that amusing mine cart sequence where you get thrown across the map). Apart from that however there aren’t very many ways for you to interact with your environment apart from a few “gimmicks”. There are no platforming segments, no secret areas and while I must concur that this might not have been a goal in the minds of the level design team, it would have been a nice touch nonetheless. The fact that the adventure journal rewards you for exploration is a point in the game’s favor.

As mentioned earlier though, the badly translated lines and the lackluster story-line ruined any sort of immersion for me. The amount of busywork also destroyed any sense of connection I had with my character as I felt like my revelator was simply a glorified yes-man.

Bosses, Dungeons, and Raids

Dungeons in this game are simply exercises in tedium yet again. Admittedly, they get far easier thanks to power-creep from gear (which I have strong words about later) but once again they’re basic and sub-par. They’re also largely wasted opportunities for community building. Many games implement level-scaling into their dungeons and dynamic rewards which are adjusted to compensate for higher-level characters wishing to participate in lower-level dungeons with their friends. People do not run the lower-level dungeons simply because it’s unrewarding for them to do so. This leaves the community with characters in the lower levels not having anybody to run dungeons with and creates scenarios where people with higher level alts cannot participate in content with their friends who may have only just started the game. This game’s dungeon system would feel so much more alive with dynamic level adjustment and scaling rewards. Just saying.

Now as for the bosses and the dungeons themselves… Oh my god where to begin. There are no real mechanics. And any that DO exist are simply hammered into irrelevancy due to the power-creep from gear. Where are the puzzles? Where are the intricate mechanics you find so prevalent in so many of today’s MMOs boss encounters? You could argue that things like “kill that mob to damage the egg” count as mechanics but that’s barely different from the atypical questing you already did during the leveling process to begin with… I don’t know if it was simply impossible to implement these things based upon the design of the game itself but the developers could honestly have tried harder in my opinion. I haven’t encountered anything in this game that couldn’t be killed with enough of a dose of “hit it in the face til it dies”. The raid in this game (Earth Tower) has no business calling itself a real raid. It’s simply more artificial difficulty locked behind even more gear power-creep. To illustrate my point let’s draw another parallel. Now mind you this is a boss with one of the “simpler” mechanics in Guild Wars 2. There’s a raid boss in Guild Wars 2 called the Vale Guardian. In his normal state the entire party can damage and hit him. Every 33% percent health he loses he “phases” and splits into three separate forms. At this point the party separates into two or three teams depending on how you deal with the split. His blue form can only be damaged when a buff that makes it immune to damage is stripped. His green form can only be damaged by physical attacks. His red form only takes condition or “dot” damage. You split the party up depending on who can do what. When all three splits die he reforms back into his original form. You have a set amount of time to damage him in his original form and to do the split phases until the enrages and will typically wipe the raid. REAL mechanics. Where are they in ToS???

Gear Progression and Enchancement

First of all, the gear power creep in this game is too much. Many games have adopted the idea of horizontal progression in their games to combat this issue. Expansions simply add more stuff for your character to do and possibly a few new skills but not another gear treadmill. They instead decide to focus on replayability and rewarding content for you to engage in instead of having to resort to having you spend the majority of your time grinding for better gear. This game is relying on making you grind for fluff and filler content instead of creating actual content! And don’t even get me started on the arbitrary nature of the anvil. This is one of the most horrible enchancement systems I’ve seen in a modern MMO in a very long time. I thought the enchancement system in TERA was bad giving you a 0.8% chance to +15 an item but at least there it doesn’t break. You have infinite chances to finally get your gear to it’s maximum enchancement level regardless of how long it takes to get there. It’s possibly even more grindy sure, but at least at the end of the day you sit with the knowledge that you will eventually succeed at your goal and that your effort for creating, upgrading, and farming materials for said piece of gear ultimately gets rewarded after enough time and effort. I’ve had pieces in this game that stubbornly refuse to even get to +11, weapons that refuse to get to +16 after hitting +15 multiple times, and pieces that I don’t really have a use for getting to +18 with normal anvils. It’s far too much RNG with no proper failsafes barring the P2W diamond anvil. It’s soooooo bad. And the fact that diamond anvils even exist leading to a pay to win mechanic has no business being in a modern day mmo. BDO had a mass population exodus after releasing P2W components in the form of “convenience” items. Archeage fared much the same for the same reasons. Revelation Online died because of their P2W cash shop. These games bear evidence to the idea that this concept simply isn’t ok anymore in this era of gaming. Just stop.

Replayability and class diversity

Ok, so the build diversity in this game is something I can appreciate. But I do have to point out when something does it better because that’s the point of this post isn’t it? Instead of having to bog down people’s lodges with multiple alts just for the same profession why not allow them the freedom of swapping builds at their leisure? Why does it need to be an event-locked or cash shop feature to experiment with builds? The leveling process is already terrible, why subject people to it again? Is it to sell more character slots or reset scrolls? We’re going to draw another parallel here because objective comparison creates a healthy viewpoint to address this issue. Final Fantasy IV requires no alts. You can be every profession on the same character. You can swap builds and professions on the fly leading to dynamic gameplay and opening up multiple party roles for every character. And it ADDS to the experience. It does not DETRACT from it. It keeps the game fresh and alive. Many other games have similar features though not as intensive. Guild Wars 2 allows you to swap builds on the fly within your own profession to better suit a given role. You can even swap stats on gear. SWTOR lets you swap builds in every major hub letting you multi-role within your class. Why on earth can’t we swap builds here without having to pay or wait for an event?

The Social Element

Ok, I forgot to add this in but this is actually quite important. (this is an edit) WHY IS GLOBAL CHAT HIDDEN BEHIND A CASH SHOP ITEM? This kills player interaction! There isn’t even map chat. I read somewhere that it was possibly to stop gold sellers from spamming chat or yada yada yada but…they do anyway. They buy megaphones with free TP. You could have solved this dilemma in so many other ways that would have not hampered player interaction. a) ban the bots (what you actually should be doing to begin with) b) ban the chat spammers c) give people expanded block-lists so they can block gold sellers themselves (laziest solution but hey it’s there) So why this one? Restricting chat to a premium service does nothing good for the community.

Server State, Optimization, and Connectivity

Klaipeda Channel crashes more often than what should be considered tolerable. You get unexplainable disconnection issues and lag in barely populated maps. And oh my god frame-rate during world bosses is horrid. Is this game rendered in Unreal Engine 4 with high-res textures and detailed character models? Oh wait no that’s TERA. Then why does it run so badly?

Conclusion

If you’re just starting this game or haven’t been sucked into it’s mindless grind and P2W system, I implore you, save yourself. This game adds nothing to the modern day mmo market worthy of recognition and you do yourself a disservice playing it when you could find a far more satisfying experience in so many other games on the market. Its systems are antiquated and while I initially imagined that was part of its charm, when the nostalgia goggles wear off you simply find yourself with an inferior product which constantly nudges you towards its cash shop to deliver not even half the experience you’d have playing a proper premium game. Games should not feel like an unrewarding grindy chore nor should they ever be this devoid of enjoyable content. Turn away and don’t look back, if you’re looking for a great new MMO this isn’t it.

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Okay, go ahead and leave misinformed. It sounds like you’re mindlessly raging.

Swell body doesn’t give 2x exp or double loot chance, btw. It only works when the mob drops something when killed and gives two of that item, It doesn’t affect chance.

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@OP every MMO is different and every MMO has its flaws, i don’t think there’s one MMO for every kind of person. If you didn’t like Tree of savior, move on and keep looking for the MMO that pleases you. Think of it like a product, if you didn’t like the product, go for something else.

What are you talking about, @KaizenPrince???, You think you tweak a class tree and thats’ it? Class balancing takes years, you don’t go around changing skill factors and that’s it. You have to think how certain skills can affect PvE and PvP wise before you even change a class, and the game has ton of classes to look at. The Wizard tree looks more balanced now than it was before.
Archer tree balance? Probably, in its due time.
IMC is releasing game content every month since 2018, something that they have never done before (old 3-6 month content), which basically says they care about the game, they care about their playerbase and they listen to them. Sure, there’s alot to do still, but they are working to improve the game and that’s what matters.

You’re just a troll that needed this kind of thread to spread their toxicity and lies.

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Aye, I guess it’s just really not for me. It’s just rather sad because I reaaaalllyyy tried to get into it. I even sank some money into the game to really try it out but the lack of proper end-game and the badly polished systems just made me cringe so often I couldn’t… Getting back into TERA for a bit I think, though after a year away I’ll have to relearn quite a bit. Thankfully after some checking the gear I farmed up before still seems to be second to BiS so I won’t be starting from scratch~!

Since 2016 the game has changed a lot. The game has its flaws and isn’t perfect but the progress is noticeable.

From forums you can also see how much the STAFFs cares about the people and try to communicate with players and devs, like STAFF Yuri with the Territory Wars feedback threads and also Letitia on many previous topics.

But there’s also their limits, decisions and priorities. It’s not possible to cater to every single player needs and no company ever does that, especially when the community get split so much.

Even about gacha/lootboxes, we have many players that puts money on it and support the system, we have many players that are totally against its very existence. It’s virtually impossible to make everyone happy in a short amount of time along with also developing new content that gets added to non-korean versions later.

And, for sure, you can get tired of the content or of playing alone too much or of doing too many dailies. You can though, opt in for playing with other people or do different stuff, because this game does have nice things, or opt out and go do something else temporarily or not.

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If these issues have been around as long as you say I’m just glad I recognized them earlier on before over-committing to this game. But then that draws a dangerous conclusion in itself about the state of the game if I recognized them within just a month of playing.

In any case, I created the post as a means to vent and provide a “buyer beware” to any new players just getting into the game. I find that quite often people get themselves sucked into sub-standard games because they feel like the time and monetary investment “requires” them to continue playing. I felt like I needed to make a post to state these observations as a public service to help people before they get to that point.

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Mm…contrary to popular belief. It’s been shown that a majority of “whales” in online games have been shown to not really be rich people but simply average earning citizens with bad spending habits. The existence of Gacha boxes really does feed into a gambling mentality which is unhealthy for consumers. At the end of the day it really is a predatory practice and I can’t find myself supporting it in online games.

I make concessions when loot boxes are cosmetic only and don’t tie into progression because companies do need money to keep the lights on at the end of the day but when the acquisition and (in this case) improvement of end-game gear gets tied into a gacha box I can’t find myself agreeing with the practice at all.

But you’re right, people have the right to engage in unhealthy practices if they so desire and public opinion concerning this matter is always going to be a contested topic to be sure. It’s just my personal belief that a company like IMC should be held to some measure of social responsibility and not engage in the practice to begin with.

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Hello @smooth_teal.

Please, don’t understand it on a wrong way. I’m not saying that X is right or Y is wrong.

I used the lootbox example because it’s very nature. It’s a complicated on its own. Many players dislikes it. Others willingly spends and supports it knowing of all downsides.

This applies to many places in the game.

We got this power creep scenario because many complaints about the game being too hard and monsters too strong, while other players liked it. Now we have too weak monsters and you can’t die, some people like it, others complains that there’s no challenge.

We got TBL with standardized gears, then to custom gears as people complained, now in future we’re going back to standardized gears again.

Another point is about rank resets. Some people wants to change classes at any time. Some people prefers the rank resets being an exclusive thing from time to time instead of free class changes at will.

As much as I agree about the P2W anvil aspect, you don’t need +16 for normal gameplay, yet some people complain about the anvil system excluding them and the game being too easy, which is a conflicting opinion on itself.

I’m not the “MMO person”, being especially far from most games “3D, omg, almost real graphics! Man, graphics!” I miss the harder monsters and grindy game we had back then because I like the base combat system.

Too many things changed, some things from one extreme to another. Too many things have many players supporting both sides.

We have STAFFs that actively check the forums, collect feedback, some stuff gets to the devs from here, from ktos forums, some stuff is implemented, some stuff has lower priority.

As any game, ToS have bad and good things, you can like it or not, and it will be your opinion and everyone respects that.

I like the good things ToS have and I dislike many of the other MMOs styles. This doesn’t mean they’re bad or that ToS is the best game ever, it’s just that I don’t like them just as it was told in previous posts.

And I’m taking a break from ToS because why not, you’re free to get tired of dailies and chores and go back again later or move if you dislike them that much.

It’s just a fact that no one will manage to please everyone and many people will have different ideas of what they want, sometimes they will be literally opposite sides and nothing can really be done about that.

Balancing a game is hard and it takes time.

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An actually sensible feedback appears!

On a serious note, I still play the game but I won’t deny the bad things you pointed out about it.

I guess I’m still playing mostly because of being in an active guild which is some sort of social content by itself. If I didn’t join a guild when I came back I probably would’ve just quit forever.

My one other reason is because I haven’t yet found the next MMORPG to play.

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Not MMORPG but kinda fun, Monster Hunter World is coming to PC Soon

Anyway, to thread starter:

They actually care about the game, but…their care is…“limited”

Not enough manpower? Priorities? ???

We don’t know. One thing for sure I know that they almost don’t give a damn about telsiai bot fest totaling about 200. out of our 1k-2k average population for ALL SERVERS.

+some ancient bugs like restoration aura/pet disappearing in towns having to turn them off and on again/etc

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Hell yes I’ve been waiting for the MHW release to come to PC too! I loved MH on my old PSP and consoles. And OMG the platitudes for that game. Everybody loves it because they did it right! No P2W, no lootboxes, and skill-based progression gameplay.

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Looking forward to it as well!

I’m not exactly fixed on MMORPGs (I play MOBAs, notably DotA2, too) but it’s a good escape from the occasionally games where your teammate TTs you for their own incompetence.

Haven’t gotten much info about MHW yet but I believe they do have PVP too?

What makes a great game basically, though for this game we have full korean devs and a much smaller company, it’s kinda sad that I supported with full Early access packages on this game.

But hey, with my 2 years here at least I had a bit of fun, but it’s still mixed with frustration so I don’t even know anymore.

All MH games I played before had no pvp. but we do TT each other which kinda makes it PVP rofl.

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Not trying to be salty or anything but… Why does everyone feel like they have to write a text wall before quitting the game? We get it, you didn’t find what you’re looking for, good luck on your journey. No need to ramble on a forum from a game you’re not even playing anymore.

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To leave constructive criticism and to share my experiences with other new players who might not know what to expect from the game without them having to go through the same harrowing experience I did. (You’d know if you read the post in its entirety as well as the comments)

Don’t cut yourself on your edge there. :stuck_out_tongue:

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It’s a feedback on what you hate/etc and what you liked.

Hoping that the game can still improve for others or in the future if you decide to come back.

If you’re selling something(say, a product) consistently and noticed people stopped buying your product, wouldn’t you want to know WHY? so that you can IMPROVE?

Now, to change or not is up to you, in this case the devs or whatever their marketing limits them to.

That’s the thing. I have actually read it. It starts well but not too long after you just ‘this game sucks because it’s not exactly as I wanted it to be’.

For me at least, it was pretty much implied that this game as a grinding fiesta. And there’s nothing wrong with it. Stuff “why isn’t the questing system just like X game?” and “Y game has a much better dungeon system” does nothing to actually improve ToS. Did you expect this game to be like “Tree of Savior: Everything you liked in every other mmo you played”?

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If it’s not done already, you can also copy paste your review on steam at least, it provides helpful intel about the “current” state of the game.

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It does actually because the best way to critique how well something performs is to draw parallels to existing products within the same category or genre. Also, pointing out relevant content which is done well elsewhere provides avenues for improvements in areas where this game doesn’t. (There are many.)

Did you expect this game to be like “Tree of Savior: Everything you liked in every other mmo you played”?

No not quite, but I can hardly be faulted for noticing the areas where it did fail and drawing comparisons to games that did that area of their gameplay well.

The simple fact of the matter is, is that this game has done nothing to truly push the envelope forward so to speak. It hasn’t taken lessons from other existing products on the market and tried to be anything…well great really. So I’m leaving a personal critique and providing an opportunity for the devs to review the various systems I found lacking.

But if we want to take personal opinions out of the equation and just base all of this on empirical data you and I both know (if you want to look up Steam numbers for this game) that the population in this game is decreasing in a rapid downward trend. Sure this holds true for most MMOs but never in this great a volume at least in the case of ToS if we take into account steam metrics. A loss of 25% of the playerbase each month? From a developer perspective that’s rather alarming. You can’t deny there’s something WRONG with the game. Is the empirical data coincidental based on my experience? Unlikely. And while me throwing ideas and opinions around may ultimately lead to nothing, if it helps then that’s great.

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When I think about it, I don’t think the two are actually the same. I don’t think they’re the opposites of the same coin.
I don’t actually know people who like the fact they’re gacha cubes. They just buy because they want some specific cute/useful items in them and don’t care if it’s RNG or not.
While the others are clearly simply against it and hate it.
Although it doesn’t change the fact that even if they don’t care, since they buy them it makes them support them.
I just wanted to say that IMC could try to find a way to sell so the ones who currently still buy can keep buying, while the ones who stopped buying would also buy again, since the former ones aren’t buyingbecause they’re gacha cubes.
But anyway gacha cubes are really good for profit, so it makes sense that they don’t remove it if people buy them anyway.
… Just random thoughts \o/

@smooth_teal

To be honest, and as opposed to what SoftYoumu said, I don’t even think it’s a good casual MMO since you have barely anything fun/chill to do :confused:
And personally I miss when the maps were more challenging at higher level and leveling wasn’t as easy. It was fun forming parties with your friends, grinding together, and not necessarily being able to solo everything.
It was fun when in guild you asked people for help to finish quests, to advance to your next class, or whatever, because soloing was a bit too challenging… It was more sociable, you had more things to do (not just your own selfish things), you met people, and overall it made it all fun and interesting for me.

Although recently on Facebook (and maybe here too ?) they asked what contents people wanted, so I think they actually do want to improve the game. But it makes me uncomfortable to know they went from closed beta to official release, released all those cash items, and they’re still far from being done balancing, optimizing, creating contents, fixing all the bugs, “filling” the game, basically. I feel at some point they maybe got lost~

A friend of a friend had an extra free code for Elder Scrolls Online, I tried it randomly at first and… I’m really glad I did. I actually have fun there. There aren’t a lot of classes, but you can build you characters however you want, use whatever race you want, you have good immersion, real stories and a developed lore (even the bard songs in the inns are interesting and lore-related), you have actual mechanics in dungeons, you EVEN HAVE ACTUAL LOOT FROM DUNGEONS !
I had to capslock because with TOS I had forgotten dungeons worth running existed in games (a)
Sometimes I get lost just exploring and it’s so refreshing… I played TOS for way too long, it almost made me forget that MMOs can actually be interesting and don’t have to be so linear.

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