Sure keep in mind that meta is not just “popular” it defined the best available numbers in the game. when the meta changes the numbers have. I’m going to sleep. ToF sure is more fun than the actual game itself.
4 Likes
I think it goes way further than just stats being too weak. Skills and stats go hand in hand.
Ideally, all skills should be percentage based (whether in damage or damage mitigation). Then stats can form the core of the damage for skills and be relevant in ALL stages of the game, be it R1 or R10.
Having all skills pegged to % values (eg. Malleus Maleficarum changed to 1500% based of INT, or rather damage is 15x of INT) gives the following benefits:
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Stats play a huge role in all damage. Players can’t go full CON and still expect to do big damage. Gives stats more priority than gear. Damage will be more based on (Core stat * Skill %) + weapon damage before defences and all other bonuses kick in. Both STR and DEX will be more balanced and not one sided priority only to DEX in high transcendence. Same for support classes who have to choose between SPR and INT, whether to be really good in support or really good in damage.
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Allows balance across classes. Low rank classes become more viable in all stages of the game. Players can make Swordsman c3>Barb C3>Squire C3 at R9 and still feel they are adequate with the R9 content as the skill damage increases together with their core stats and further augmented with gear. No one need to feel the pressure that if there isn’t any high rank class in their build they will be left out. True class diversity and balance across ‘80’ classes, lessens the gap between meta and non-meta.
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Prevents power creep and better pve balancing. With % based damage, monsters can be tweaked easily to match the power level of classes and skills. There is lesser need to peg the monster’s defences and mitigation against the high class ranks’ damage, which causes players without higher ranks in their builds feel that their build is bad.
However, it does comes with some cons too, but these cons do have solutions to them. I’ll list them down
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Paradigm shift of stats and gear. Gear (at least the current gear) now takes a back seat with this change, and it is not a good idea for any kind of MMO since it is one of the key time sinks in which players love to invest their time in, to farm for good gear. This can be changed with the introduction of more variety of gear choices, like gears that give high base stats and gears that alter/allow a different kind of playstyle (eg. a gear set which allows the falconer to use skills while hanging from a falcon). This makes gear collecting more interesting and promotes a wider range of play.
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Flat hierarchy of classes might make classes that are available later seem less welcoming as currently the main draw of the high rank classes is their damage. This is more of a design problem imo, higher ranked classes can be introduced as classes that augment other classes that are lower in rank, or buffers in short. This ensures players who like playing with their current build, to acquire higher ranks to further their playstyle and not just because of the damage they bring forward. We see this already being done with Murmillo (shield buffer), Inqusitor (melee buffer), Sage (installation buffer). Another way is to introduce a higher rank class which radically change the way the base class is meant to be, Hackapelle is a good example, where archer whom is normally ranged have to go melee. Interesting ideas can be a ranged swordsman (use the Force/sword Ki to injure from far), or a wizard that uses Gems (yes those red,yellow,green, blue gems) as sources of power. This makes later rank classes have more appeal and will do well in a flat hierachy based class design.
P.S.
Will detail this more in Musings Chap5. Later I run out of things to write T_T
5 Likes
I think swordsmen were actually decent in R7 it’s just the skill needed to use them properly were insane. Most people just don’t know how to.
Dethrone made everything simple. I mean you can kill someone from the other side of the screen. And you have faster speed than everyone so you can kite and snipe people.
They need to redo all the 280+ dungeon monster before they even think about balancing classes. Because if they balances classes right now then it’s going to be balanced around 280+ monsters that have huge spike to cater to transcendence. And stop talking about PVP. PVP is NEVER a good focal point for class balance. There is not a single PVP balanced online rpg game out there. It just won’t happen. There’s a reason why there’s not a single major rpg that has balanced PVP. It’s not because they can’t do it. It’s because if they balance classes according to PVP then that screws up the main content which is PVE.
6 Likes
You do realize that skills can be balanced for PvP and PvE right? In fact the the last “big” balance patch did exactly that, balanced Priest, Plague Doctor, Kino and a few others just for PvP.
2 Likes
Oh… and how did that work out?
yeah exactlly
2 Likes
Mixed roles are inevitable because we have unique class system. We have now what? 8 types of classes per char, will be 10 in the future. Limiting class tree into 1 role is bland. Eg (swordsman as tank only, Clerics as support only, wiz as damage only, archers as damage). I aint going to use swordsman as meat shield for you lol.
No, like i said my Lancer is not meta. Lancer meta is SW3, Cata3, Corsair, Lancer. Most people will tell you to use sw3 because of pain barrier,restrain and corsair hook.
explain why I can PVP even though i dont have SW3 and Corsair in it? Because of Rush? I dont think you can climb in rankings just because you have rush 
.
No, it wasnt simple as they dont know how to do. It was because theyre unable to do because of Cleric and Wizards wall. Its like youre saying all swordsman in R7 are idiots and all wizard and clerics are Einstein level genius.
^ I like this one better, than scaling suggestion of Composition. Youre not locked into 1 role just because you chose a cleric or a swordsman. You can build it anyway you want.
Have you seen this pic?
https://forum.treeofsavior.com/uploads/default/original/3X/d/2/d22b5a535dcf085346f15b4f79a18c887546cb71.png
Do you really think that these kinds of stats and stat differences between non-trans and trans equip are balanced?
How would you even begin to plan monster stats with players atk ranging from like 800 to 10000 atk and their def ranging from like 1500 to 5000?
It’ll only result in monsters either becoming stupidly and unfairly powerful 1-hit-killers against non-trans players/low-level-trans players or a 1-damage-recieved cakewalk snoozefest for trans players.
Sure I do agree you can serve multiple roles, but, none of them are ever enforced.
Peltasta’s swashbuclking, last time I used it didn’t even remove the aggro of monsters from my teammates. Why? I don’t know.
But, when you serve so many roles, what is your role? if 5 people serve the same roles? what is their role? it will boil down to: damage.
Only utility skills that are amazing at PvE are pulls, I’m amazed at you being so PvP centric, I do not care about PvP, it has to be balanced differently than PvE. and we’ve not even have PvE balance yet.
My idea of balance? I’m amazed at you still not grasping it. I just want things to scale accordingly. is it really that bad? nekorin and I are after the same thing, he said it differently.
If you consider PvE and PvE only, when was the last time you said that you wanted an enemy to be frozen, to be stunned, to be anything? If atleast the game forced you to wait for an enemy to be under some sort effect to be able to damage it we would have uses for the multiple debuff of the game. but we’re only getting increasingly HP sponges.
2 Likes
I believe the actual intention was for stats to NOT be large contributors to build efficiency, so that players had stat flexibility given the little variance in relative effectiveness one would get from any particular stat choice.
Dex is simply too powerful a stat, and that power realistically comes from its crit rate contribution.
Con follows suit after it but that’s not so big a problem.
The game basically starts its first quests recommending players the stats for their classes that they’ll want to
Swordsmen: STR/CON
Archer: STR/DEX
Wizard: INT/SPR (I believe the word was be balanced or specialized)
Cleric: INT/SPR/STR
and then everyone just grabs Dex, CON or because of r8 Mdef Int which becomes less significant once you have sufficient Trans to say screw it (as does Con when your Mdef and Pdef trivialize all damage).
As a result the biggest gap is between STR and DEX.
Since INT and CON both become less significant when Trans (weapons and armor) come into play.
1 Like
My guess on rank 9 field/DG mobs will be similar to current solmiki place. I feel like IMC only cherry picked the question regarding transcendence being unbalanced to justify their inevitable casualification of blessed shards. Shards could be like mithril ore/terranium on rarity in rank 9. Im curious on what would happen if all of us have transcendence 10. Even if you have trans 10, solmiki top floor is still not cakewalk, still need ausrine+meltis. In PVP using trans 10 seems balanced to me, based on what i saw from those people who have trans 10 fighting each other.
In PVE I dont mind seeing people have trans 10, i actually prefer them to have that because my PVE run will be easy. Most people think PVP is garbage so why bother if someone has trans 10 in pvp currently? Even in dota youll find RMTer via high mmr account buying/selling.
[quote=“Composition, post:133, topic:350924, full:true”]
Sure I do agree you can serve multiple roles, but, none of them are ever enforced.
Peltasta’s swashbuclking, last time I used it didn’t even remove the aggro of monsters from my teammates. Why? I don’t know.[/quote]
It was probably bugged or your teamates attack the monsters before you swash, the aggro didnt transfer because the taunt is not enough.
[quote]
But, when you serve so many roles, what is your role? if 5 people serve the same roles? what is their role? it will boil down to: damage.[/quote]
Damage + utility or pure utility. 'LF meltis 25f" “LF CryoChrono ET run” “LF DPS have meta party”
[quote]
Only utility skills that are amazing at PvE are pulls[/quote]
Pass, Haste, heal, Frost tree, meltis, JP. Swash is good in grinding but sucks on ET.
Im using stuns along side of my defensive mechanism to survive rank 8 maps. PD and Wugu are poisoning them,
It is established by now that things are unbalanced, so why are we going on?
You named a few utility but for each one of those how many are out there that are largely useless? Man I still hope they drag this one out of the mud because like the game has been so far it is worrying. I do not want to play through TES IV Oblivion again.
1 Like
Thats why those skills belong in Cleric and Wizard. Cons + those skills is so good swordsman or archers wont be only to compete if they dont have damage.
Sure it isnt balanced but your suggestion only make things worst. You dont even know the problems that were fixed because transcendence were introduced.
If you enjoy that rank 7 garbage meta i dont care lol. The glaring fact is that it was dominated by Clerics and Wizard justified my argument.
Can you summarize what my suggestion involves?
Setting a baseline in which take all classes of the game to set a standar of power on which things will be balanced upon. How does that make things worse?
Because it shouldn’t only be made to balance classes but the content aswell. That’s the purpose of measurements.
We have its called ranks. Your only counter is just because you say so lol. Higher rank > lower rank most of the time.
If you actually look at those so called ranks why is there so much imbalance still?
If they truly made a measurement for each rank why are things like they are now? I mean it is not like it took them 4 years or something.
I’ve set an example of unbalance within those very ranks, it is not the only one you can also look at rank 5 and encounter similar issues.
It is truly dreadful.
Because it is MMORPG, they(IMC) balance it affording to players suggestion/preference. Pyros are crying in rank 7? Buff them. Similar will happen in rank 9. Transcedence fix those lower ranks having low damage compare to higher ranks. If Pyro dont have to use agny to boost their damage, incorporate agny in skills instead as an item + Animus and higher magic defense is more dreadful than we currently have. Still garbage balance? Dont look somewhere else the same will happen if IMC manually balanced our lower ranks (2-5) instead of transcedence because this is MMORPG and will be subjected into bias balancing over and over again. At least transcedence you have to excel efforts to be viable and not so bias.
Annnd that’s how you break any semblance of balance and expect players to still support you? Truly A+
They wanted to make this suppsedly 10 ranks of classes. And only the last rank matters. Why?
It’s like you get to the end and there it lies a giant J/K statue next to your previous rank selections, all your effort. wasted. Truly, Amazing, and ground breaking design.
And I still stand by saying: I dont have to fix anything it is not my product, just throwing suggestion so they can come up with something better. I do not care if the product dies, I’ll move on. it is not my game. However I do enjoy it (hardly now adays) so I want it to improve.