Tree of Savior Forum

The problem with nerfing everything

People play video games, because they want to experience cool things, things that aren’t limited by realities constraints.

If a build in a game feels powerful, that is a good thing - because it means the player feels strong and impactful in the game.

It means that the build is in a good place. And you should now focus on improving all the other builds in the game, such that they all give the same sense of powerfulness. Thereby increasing the number of cool and powerful feeling builds in the game, making the game long lasting and interesting due to the constant novelty derived from the character build system.

It doesn’t mean that you should seek to nerf it in a lazy manner, make it less powerful, so that it doesn’t stand out so much relative to all the other builds.

Especially as all this does in the long run is reduce the number of playable tier builds in the game - constantly slicing away at the limited fun in the game, such that the only builds left are low risk un-fun builds, usually the ones that don’t grab much attention like the cool former builds because again of their low risk low skilled low-attention grabbing nature.

Essentially people want,

not

Worst case you buff their counters.

Email this to the game devs, and tell them they are welcome and that I only request that they don’t repeat these rookie amateur mistakes with their next game and ruin it entirely.

2 Likes

Agreed.

Agreed.

No it doesn’t. – It can mean it’s overpowered.

I’m not sure what exactly you’re referencing, but if you mean classes like Doppels or Murmillos then it certainly doesn’t. They aren’t properly balanced to the games content and should be nerfed accordingly.

Why would they limit themselves to only buffing content as a means to balancing? That messes up monster scaling, inflates numbers, among being a very unnecessary headache. Nerfing can be the best option.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what balancing is trying to achieve. Sure I agree nothing should be “nerfed in a lazy manner” but that doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be nerfs.

The variance of builds comes from excelling in certain situations, having strengths and weakness, and differing in playstyle. That can all be achieved while nerfing builds.

No one is advocating nerfing builds to become unplayable, then that would be unbalanced. What players want are overpowered classes to better align with current content. Doppels are overpowered, Murmillos are overpowered, they should be nerfed.

You didn’t have any examples so I’m not sure what exactly you’re referencing, maybe it was balance choices like the Krivis’ nerf? I definitely agree that they were overnerfed, but they did need to be nerfed to a certain extent.

What I am certain of, is your opposition to nerfing builds, but the only other way to balance the game, is by buffing everything else, which creates a mess of balancing and pacing issues for no reason when they could have just nerfed the overpowered builds in the first place, and it would achieve exactly the same results.

1 Like

I’d essentially choose frog the jam anyday over that edgy garbage. :frowning: :frog:

4 Likes

Not everything should be nerfed and usually when we see this become a problem it’s due to overnerfs because the devs themselves don’t know what proper level they want everything at.

Unfortunately this leads to years of poorly done balancing in most cases where you never at any one point truly see good balance between characters/classes/etc.

Overtuning is a serious damn problem in most games (not just MMOs either)

6 Likes

Balance is always what we want but not what we desire…

:yin_yang: too much nerf and it feels pointless, too much buff and it’s meaningless…

but no matter what is done, the unhappiness of some is as much of a constant as the happiness of others :blush:

Wtf?
And I thought this game has been ridiculously dumbed into ez mode over time sinve beta.

Once they nerf Doppels & Murmillos the only thing that would happen is another 20% of Dopple & Murmillo players would become jaded and quit and the tiny playerbase will dwindle even more lmao.

They already have made many builds totally unplayable.

Just look at the top 100 build rankings, the first Pyromancer mentioned is at rank 45 lmao, and it’s just a 1 star. That means a tiny percentage of the population feels it’s viable to play Pyromancer and have it become a core part of their build.

You’re talking like as if this game has tons of players and balance is actually important, when this game needs to focus on actually be fun first. This game isn’t League of Legends lmao.

The game will never be fun with them nerfing and removing every interesting mechanic from every interesting build just because some peanut brained monkeys complain about it in the forums feeling powerful.

You don’t seem very bright and ignored my entire point in the OP so I won’t bother responding further.

This game is already dead so I’m not expecting any change, just as I said, email this to the game devs, and tell them they are welcome and that I only request that they don’t repeat these rookie amateur mistakes with their next game and ruin it entirely.

Ur some nobody so it’s pointless to waste time and convince u why ur braindead.

1 Like
2 Likes

Hilarious.

Please don’t. Bad ideas discredit the whole community.

Bolding things doesn’t make them any less ridiculous.

5 Likes

Skull swing was apparently too OP on TBL and it got Nerfed to 4 seconds.
how about this for an example ?
sure let’s please the masses and nerf this to 4 seconds "when are you ever going to achieve this in 4 seconds ? not even low fps players be able to do anything in this regard.
and why do highlanders have to suffer from that nerf for TBL ???
i would like to hear your opinion with this example :o
personally i think that it would have made More sense to leave the 30 second nerf Alone when Outside of Pvp [meaning pve]
and at the very least leave it at 15 or 12 seconds, 4 seconds on pve
wtf is anyone gonna do with 4 seconds on pve ?


there’s a Lot of Nerf in the game, but some don’t seem to make sense.

1 Like

Meta rotation. Period.

Skull Swing was overnerfed, the 4 seconds isn’t enough time to properly execute a rotation. Debuffs are one of the few parts that require mechanical skill to use, in this case managing timings and rotations. Highlanders do need some reworking, their skills execute quickly and yield a lot of damage, and given their versatility they might need a rework. So while I understand trying to nerf the debuff, doing it in the way they did was incorrect. Either lessening its effects but keeping a the debuff time, or a general rework of the skills would have been better, and I hope to see them change it.

To clarify, I never said that IMC hasn’t overnerfed things, I said the opposite like with Krivis’. I play a Dragoon so I’m well aware of the pain of overnerfing and I’ve said it in plenty of other places too.

Exactly! As I said, I’m a Dragoon, every time I play I deal with that.

If a class or mechanic is so strong that literally shift the entire meta for that class making every other combination suboptimal , then yes it needs a nerf.

Doppel is exactly that, why would anyone pick Fencer if Doppel not only have better %, AoE and even better cooldown. And the worse is that in that example Fencer is not even weak, it’s actually one of the better balanced class in the Swordman tree.

And yes, some classes were overnerfed, but to be fair had some nice balance in some cases too, Summoners right now per example are in a good place, they are strong but have to invest in Spirit, making every other skill outside of the summon tree weaker.

So I don’t even want Doppel nerfed to the ground, I only want a Downside that makes other swordman classes actually be a option in a min-max situation.

4 Likes

They can only nerf because they failed to overhaul the battle system to one that actually regards all factors included. TOS is one of the few games that has a rich & diverse combat system, including skills that use(d after the new patch) Stamina, SP, HP to execute and have several ways to negate/reduce damage, including armor property(cloth/leather/plate/ghost), evasion, block rate, defence,magic defence and damage mitigation skills.

However, what did they do to most of them?
They became invalid, because monsters are pathetically weak, armors ridiculously potent, stats mainly useless (unless skill scale on them) and monsters are pretty much disabled with their A.I. and lack of skills.

This + transcendence system makes everything in this game a faceroll on the keyboard, so obviously some Classes like Doppelsoeldner are strong. They are strong because all they do is hack&slash mentally retarded beings called monsters with their overpowered sword and skills without having to fear death.

Balanced Classes only shine if the monsters are more of a challenge and substats like block&evasion actually improve your survival chances.

Defensive&Supportive Classes only shine against overwhelming monsters or large hordes of them. With a limit of 5-9 monsters per person and no chance to aggro more because their location is fixed, there is nearly no chance that they will ever be needed; they are just a convenient “extra” to clear content/farm even faster (looking at Pardoners buff shop e.g.).

So to achieve more balance it’s either nerf the top tier damagedealers, adjust all others to deal more damage or finally make use of all those cool ingame systems/features to make battles more challenging!!!

2 Likes

Omg, this game is only a year and couple of months old. Have you ever player other MMORPGs?

2 Likes

This game has reoriented to a fashion game, combat and class balance are a afterthought.

Now this is lazy balance design that I heavily disagree and that I think that the creator of the topic was trying to make a point.

A balanced game in my opinion would be were every class have something their ups and downs or something unique that make them a option. And being a top damage dealer is something that make a class a option too, but they need a downside to consider taking them, per example we could keep Doppel exactly the way they are now, but every time they use a Doppel skill their defense drop to 0 for some seconds.

3 Likes

I simply stated the 3 options they have to balance, equality by nerf, equality by adjustment or diversity by improving the system to have an actual effect.



They could e.g. make attacks that will automatically get blocked by shields, but always hit, ignore defence and deal a lot of damage if you wear none.

Or e.g. introduce a debuff similar to ROs Critical wounds that disables healing/potion recovery that gets automatically blocked by shields but is applied when someone dualwields or uses a twohanded weapon.

The best thing would be a skill that reflects 40-50% of physical damage back to the attacker(similar to ROs Reflect Shield) so that he kills himself when attacking recklessly.

But judging the way the game is headed, Doppelgaenger is just a temporary existence anyway, because he’s very limited due to the twohanded weapon.
If we consider teamplay, every magic Class that can dual wield is in a far better position than Doppelsoeldner, because Thaumas Swell Right Arm and Swell Brain have a really high potential if the Thauma is well-equipped.

And having over 1-2k more matk than a Doppel gains patk (solely through Swell Left Arm) is not a small amount; this discrepancy grows with each levelcap, meaning that maybe already at Rank 9 Doppelsoeldner builds might become bad and abandoned, especially since Thauma3>Chrono3 will be possible as supporter.

Seems like the days of Rank 8 meta are already numbered, Rank 9 will have magic-only meta-parties :slight_smile:

1 Like

Buff characters, and then buff the bosses and monsters too (:

This is a great idea. I always wished that this game was less about knock-back, and more about resistance and status ailments. Miko and PD roles in preventing ailments should become more of a big thing, rather than an “option.”

Currently, there’s only 1(?) class than can prevent knock-back outside of Safety Zone. There should be other classes that can do this, and add ailments like a debuff that, upon dying, the player can’t res for 5 mins. Or, more bosses that aoe freeze, stone curse, and sleep. Add a confusion debuff that causes people to walk in in random directions for a few seconds. More Holy-type bosses(I guess this would hurt the “story” but idk) or bosses immune to elements that people commonly use.

People think it’s acceptable to walk around without bloodletting and I have yet to meet another Miko that even knows what Charm of Protection is. If a Bishop/High Priest didn’t have freeze/sleep/stone curse resistance armor in a party in RO, it would severely affect the whole party.