Tree of Savior Forum

The Problem: Dragoon

I was originally going to to begin a series of suggestions under the name “The Problem” and start with bigger topics like Equipment, Power Creep, World Bosses, and new content, but I feel this takes priority now as I main a Dragoon.

Dragoon’s have always been a fairly difficult class to play. They relied on buffs and debuffs for their damage potential, even with skills like Dethrone, the overall damage came from using debuffs and skill rotations correctly to maximise output. This has always been difficult, Dragoon’s were never the top damage dealers because at their core, they used a difficult playstyle. If a rotation was interrupted, the debuff is wasted and the classes source of competitive damage goes with it. Dragoon’s were never overpowered, and had always been a fairly frustrating and difficult class to play. Horrible animations and hitboxes exist with almost every skill, and even Dethrone can become troublesome with it’s knockback and buggy desync.

As difficult as it was to play, Dragoon’s were rewarding. The choice of 1H or 2H, the options of the mobility of Cataphract, the Defence and Utility of Peltasta, a debuff heavy Hoplite, or the personal damage and CC of Swordsman, you could craft the build you wanted and have it suit your playstyle. Dragoon’s could be built for the role you wanted, they were popular, and they were fun. For the frustration of having to rely on constant buffs and debuffs, it was rewarding to execute a perfect rotation and do large amounts of damage and be a utility for team mates. It wasn’t perfect before when comparing it to its contemporaries, but it was in a good place.

What changed to make Dragoon’s move from a fun and rewarding build, to what can only be described as frustrating and weaker? It was a compounding of problems, while they were prevalent in the past, just adding Gae Bulg and reducing damage slightly was enough to convert the class from balanced to frustrating and weak. Dragoon’s were difficult, and while they relied on debuffs like Serpentine, it was manageable to maximise our DPS, and we were rewarded for the difficulty with good base damage. It was difficult, but when we did it right we remained competitive. So now by adding even more for us to manage, in this case Gae Bulg, we lose valuable time, open ourselves up to CC, easier to miss an already difficult rotation, and have to deal with an awful hitbox. To make the problem worse, we can’t just avoid Gae Bulg, it’s one of the few high damage skills we have, and the other skills were balanced around using its debuff making it mandatory to even get close to competitive DPS. What we ended up having is an even more difficult class to play, that does less damage, combine that with the already bad hitboxes and animations and you’re left with a frustrating class to play.

We can see what IMC’s intention was with the new balancing. Dragoon’s have lower skill factors than its contemporaries, but the damage potential is the same or higher when accounting for Dragoon’s debuffs. IMC was clearly trying to reward good skill rotation and usage with the high damage, the problem is to actually get the kind of skill rotation needed to be at competitive damage is impossible.

The solution isn’t radical, and it’s not to over buff Dragoons, it’s to simply balance them. The way to do it, is remove the overly frustrating mechanics that hold it back. The core of the problem is difficult gameplay, for barely competitive damage, and while Dragoon does offer utility in debuffs for party members, they have to severely reduce their own DPS in an attempt to properly land their attacks and rotations which just further decreases party DPS potential. This means, the way to fix them, is with making their rotation easier, hit boxes larger, and animations faster. Dragoon’s greatest weakness will still be difficulty in relying on debuffs, and the timing of it all, it will still be the same class, with what I’m proposing the style will be the same but the execution worthwhile. Some damage increase might be necessary, but that should be done after the other aspects are reworked if it is necessary.

Recommended Skill Rework:

Dragontooth:

  • Slightly Wider Hitbox
  • Removal of Charging time

Serpentine:

  • Longer and Wider Hitbox
  • Signficantly Faster Animation
  • Reduction in SP

Gae Bulg:

  • Faster Animation
  • No Longer Picking up Spear Required
  • Attack Lands Directly in Front

Dragon Soar:

  • Longer and Slightly Wider Hitbox
  • CC Toggleable (Needs to be fixed too)

Dethrone:

  • Slightly Faster Animation
  • Toggleable CC
  • Trap Debuff Significantly Reduced (PVP Only)

The changes I propose would allow for quicker and easier rotations that Dragoon’s rely on. If even they prove to not be enough I recommend increasing damage for Serpentine, Dragontooth, and Dragon Soar, but it may be unnecessary. The idea here is to make the class flow well, combine debuffs, and execute rotations, this would aid in that play style and help to balance the problems we have. Dragoon’s aren’t horrifically bad, but they are frustrating to play, and they are the weaker option right now.

The Combat Update was an amazing showcase of IMC’s ability. There were huge improvements and most importantly it set the foundation for better balancing in the future. Unfortunately, Dragoon’s were not balanced correctly, encouraging IMC to make these changes quickly and effectively is our best option. I want to make it clear, IMC did good work, but there’s still improvement to be made.

At the GM Meetup I asked GM Papaya about Dragoon balance. Dragoon’s appear to have been overly nerfed and that they will most likely be rebalanced. My main concern now is speed of implementation and having it done correctly. IMC is very committed to balance though, so keeping up the pressure and staying positive should stay a priority.

@STAFF_Letitia @STAFF_Amy @STAFF_Ines @STAFF_Yuri @STAFF_Ethan @STAFF_Max

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I’m in complete agreement with you. Thanks for taking the time to make this well constructed post which highlights the core of the issue with dragoon. I doubt they will change anything at this point since ktos test is already over, only hope is R9 patch.

I tried catagoon, hopgoon and find that it’s just so clunky to play for poor damage now… While the SP cost skyrockets for all skills. Before patch it was always about setting up all debuffs and dishing out the damage with dethrone while I use my cata skills as filler skills. Now cata skills cost so much SP for pathetic damage its just sad.

I am trying to think of a lancer build now.

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Same goes with catas, tried 290dg now and its so underwhelming. Save dragoons!

Agreed! Not cool what happened to Dragoons (off course happened with more classes, but it’s not the case).

There’s a real chance of getting changes to be implemented. There was skill rebalancing after the KTOS Combat Update, and now that IMC has more feedback from KTOS, JTOS, and ITOS, they may still change skills. The Staff here have a good system where they send community suggestions so I should be able to at least get my argument across. More balancing was planned anyway, now Dragoon’s just need to be added to the list.

I’m sticking to my HopGoon because 1H Spears are extremely good, but I feel the same way too. It’s just too much to try and juggle to be effective, it’s humanly impossible.

Many factors have changed, but Cata is another class that could use reworking.

Though I’m disappointed, the amount they fixed and changed makes it understandable that some classes would have trouble being balanced. As long as IMC realises these problems and addressees them quickly we should be content.

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RIP my dream for a Gae Bulg attribute that makes it an initiating enemy-targeted skill, living up to its name as the “belly spear” or “spear of mortal pain/death spear”.

My idea was that the Dragoon would be able to jump up high and dive down into the target, piercing him with the spear right in the belly making him temporarily “weaker to physical property attacks” (just its usual debuff).

The victim’s blood that would splatter on the ground causes bloodlust to party members within the AOE for a short duration, causing their defense and attack to rise up (this would explain the 2 zone attributes).

But alas we already have Hoplite’s clunky high-CD zero-overheat Long Stride which didn’t even have an attribute to turn knockdown off and can’t even be casted while moving, and Murmillo’s even clunkier Frenzied Slash which hopefully they’ve already fixed the rubberbanding issue.

Another fun idea was a Dragon Soar attribute that makes it a combo skill. When performing the skill and while in mid-air you’ll be able to use throw skills (Dethrone or Gae Bulg), making these skills hit harder and carrying with them the shock debuff that D. Soar have.

Cool ideas, though a part of me just want them to remove Gae Bulg’s debuff and increase all the other skills damage accordingly, we have to much to deal with as it is.

I kinda agree with some of your suggestions:

I tried yesterday the live dragoon and everything seems underwhelming. Putting debuffs on monster is quite a challenge by itself even on a stationary monster (knockbacks, immune, different ranges…) but if you add to the list monsters like Lavenzar (highly mobile boss), dragoon is really a pain to play.
In fact you aren’t rewarded to put your debuffs on the target, you are punished if you use your skills without them.

Gae Bulg is really a non rewarding skill because of the spear picking up and fixed range of use. It should have been like Zerofox said, kinda like a gap closer TARGETED on a monster if they want to keep a fixed range.
To be honest, which warrior really want to throw away its weapon while fighting?

They could also add more interactions with other spear classes (or other SW tree classes) besides just plain debuffs or because they use the same weapon:

  • like an attribute on Long stride to be able to teleport on your spear while landing a huge aoe blow (with a cd reduction for the cost of this annoying KB :persevere:) => it will help the pitiful aoe damage on Dragoon while giving utility to a never used skill.

  • an cd reduction attribute on Spear lunge (for example the cost of the Overheat or a damage reduction corresponding to the cd gained) to make it match Dethrone and Serpentine cd.

  • An attribute on stead charge to get back the spear you threw with Gae Bulg

  • An attribute to be able to charge Dragoon tooth and Doomspike at the same time ( while giving a cd reduction to Doomspike) to make a Flashy combo. For example it could throw the attack in 2 different directions to increase Catagoon Aoe possibilities (if the target is touched by the two at the same time, damage reduction could be applied to lower burst possibilities)

  • Dragon soar and Corsair Hook combos to obtain a launched into the air, grabbed and smashed into the ground combo…

The possibilities are here, we just need some to be implanted to obtain a good class…

That’s the core issue I was getting at. To even have similar damage we need to have a perfect rotation, with the difficulty in performing skills, and the games unreasonable CC system, we lose all advantages meaning we become unbalanced.

Yup. I can’t stress enough how horrible the debuff game is for Dragoon now that Gae Bolg is pretty much mandatory and serpentine is still the same old animation lock sequence. Every skill in the dragoon skilltree is full of useless animation lock.

Lancer’s rotation is just so smoother.

If dragoon is gonna be forced to play debuff and damage, I’d rather play Lancer where the animations are smooth, crisp, no wasted movement and animation lock. Just simple, strong and majestic looking spear thrusts. Spear Lunge, Crush and QUINTAIN x2! This simple rotation will net you incredible damage as if it’s pre-patch Dragoon dethrone x2 but much simple and easy rotation. Yes I know longer cooldown, sure, but you have filler skills and your rotation is so much better and efficient than Dragoon’s.

Right now, Dragoon feels like a mess of a class, full of gimmicky animation-lock and clunky mechanics, there is just no flow to it, nothing unique, nothing “dragoon-like”. Undeserving as a R7 and R8 class. Might as well be a R2 class and call it a day just like someone said. When a HL2 or Barb2 would surpass Goon2 in damage.

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The fluidity is so much of the problem. Our skills don’t work together, making our one real source of damage literally impossible. Purely numbers wise you can see what IMC was trying to achieve, the debuffs + skill factors mean competitive damage, but since the rotations are so messed up we can’t achieve the numbers they were aiming for. That’s why I’m sceptical of just increasing skill factor because we already have a system in place for our damage.

Serpentine/dragon soar could have a knockdown attribute,similar to bash (or have it by default and give an attribute to turn off).

This works pretty well for normal mobs: Serpentine+Bash+Gaebulg if you hit after a certain treshold of the hitbox the mobs land at a perfect spot for Gaebulg and you clean what’s left with Dethrone.

I had to salvage my Hopgoon (Pelt>Hop3>Doppel>Dragoon 2), now i’m running a Sword3>Hop2>Doppel>Drag2. Investing heavily on Gung Ho/Concentration and dmg got a lot better. Also Double Slash is incredibly good now. I’ve lost lots of survival mechanisms (C guard and some Pain Barrier duration,5 levels of Finestra)

But the increases in Concentration & Gung Ho kinda work for me.

P.s: I’m getting a paradoxal “more classes are viable now, but somehow we get less viable builds when combining them” vibe from this.

Skills need bonus aoe atk ratio too. Use gaebulg on a group of mobs, it only hits 4 of them. Nightmare.

So far i can’t understand why nerf dragoon, when the lancer with 2 spell ( crush + quintain) does ever more damage than the old dragoon?

anyone from @STAFF_Yuri @STAFF_Ethan @STAFF_Amy

can you explain us why the nerf and unbalace between damage/sp cost/CD in skills from crataphract and dragoon?

this is a thing, IMC kill an entire popular build for no reason, we need an answer i really hate the idea of discard my catagoon because is a useless build

The problem isn’t dragoon, but not having hoplite. My lv232 hopgoon is ridiculosly strong at his level, and i just spend 3mil between weapon and attributes and cards. Even when a missed half of my rotation, i still managed to get first damage on every boss lol.

Now i agree that dragoon, as a standalone class is a little underwhelming, but buffing him can make some builds broken. I like your idea of not directly buff him, by making his skills more consistent. The only part you need to be careful is Gae Bulg. This skill is intended to be hard to hit. But i also think that it’s very incosistent some times. A decrease in it’s cast time would be fine (something like: from 2.0s to 1.2s).

Tbh, the synergy between some classes should be nerfed so others classes can have a chance to pick whatever they want. This would make dragoon more strong as a standalone class and help your catagoon build.

I was initially on the “Dragoon is fine” wagon…
After testing two builds last night with a +8 Cata Spear ( I agree that is not the best choice ).
I am thinking that I am putting my dragoon parked in saalus for a while… just to party get carried for shards…

I agree, I was in the Dragoon is fine too. And the problem is not even Dethrone… but the Dragoon kit, the skills are awkward to use and the only ones that cause decent damage are Dethrone and Gae Bolg, and the later is a mess to aim.

And the thing is… this was always a problem, but dethrone was so powerful with a short cooldown that people didn’t even cared that the rest of the skills were bad.

I think Lancer is in a much better position than dragoon atm.

Did you even PvP ? The PvE balance don’t have any impact in the game when every class can do most content.

Dragoon PvP has ridiculous animations / delay and low damage.
Lancer deal more damage, has access to Corsair R7, have higher utility, smoother combos.