Tree of Savior Forum

The final word please on holding the z key, aka AFK+z farming

Before I start, here is a quote regarding a previous inquiry on the matter.

It has been a very highly debated topic for months and months and we have yet to get a clear answer. Now, with IToS officially launched, and F2P servers less than a month away, I think it is time that IMC voices their official stance. The quote above only implies that it hasn’t yet been cleared, and that whether it is a bot or AFK farming depends more on whether or not additional automation is involved (suggested via “case by case basis” meaning the punishments, if any at all, would be determined by the situation reported). The above quote also implies that, in the future, AFK+z may be announced as something that is not allowed or that will be acceptable… but, with our release, the future is now, and as the announcement is bound to be made someday one way or the other then there is no better time than now at launch.

Having any remaining gray areas in what is acceptable practice when using only in-game features to play the game isn’t itself acceptable.

After all, we’re playing the game and seeing it happen already again.

As this has been highly debated I will include a few common pros and cons to allowing AFK+z into the game. Not all opinions listed below are my own.

Pros-

  1. Promotes fairness. Banning AFK+z means that classes like Necromancer and Summoner would have inherent advantages. Classes like Archer and Swordsman types have to hold “z” to AFK farm but classes like Necromancer only have to stand while their minions do the killing. Banning AFK+z will have no impact on those pet classes as they do not have to hold the “z” key to farm, so the end result is some classes can farm overnight while others will not have that option. This creates an “unfair” leveling environment where some classes are able to see EXP and silver gains overnight where other classes will not.

  2. Allows players with limited play-time to gain limited EXP/silver while they are busy at work/class/life. Not everyone has 8-12+ hours to grind daily and allowing users to alleviate some of the grind isn’t a bad thing.

  3. Killing AFK players is fun. Thinking of new and creative ways to mess with them gives players a sense of a missing PK element in the game. Since you know the player is likely away you are free to rain on their parade.

  4. AFK farming has been proven to not even be really effective compared to active-play comparisons across the board. The gains in every AFK situation versus an active player are minimal. A player who is active, and plays the same amount of time the AFK player is away, will always see more productivity in silver and EXP.

  5. Players will always find ways around the rules to acceptably AFK farm. If AFK+z is allowed then users will be less reliant on gimmicks to circumvent the rules in place around farming. If AFK+z is banned then players like Necromancers will be free to AFK farm by simply standing there; if summoner type classes are given limited duration summons as a balance fix then players will simply stand there with a companion; if AFK checks are implemented to kick standing players then players will just hold an arrow key to run and contest that only holding the Z key was disallowed… the list goes on.

  6. Durability already limits the effectiveness of AFK farming. A spot that may be productive for a short while may be a death-trap once your weapon breaks.

Cons-

  1. AFK farming becomes almost obligatory to “keep up” with the crowd in terms of silver inflation and level. Although debated that, as a mmo, there is no real “race” for exp, and that silver gains are minimal compared to other movements in the game, it is still likely the player will feel obligated to “park” their character somewhere so they don’t miss out on potential gains.

  2. Congested hot-spots. Rather than simply playing the game normally these AFK players may be farming quest areas and making it difficult to complete your quest or may be sitting in the better grinding spots thus making them less effective for you as an active player. In icbt2 this wasn’t really the case but, as a trend, it has been noted that mob density in later maps is sometimes lower than expected. As players level up they will attempt to find new spots to AFK in (a lvl500 likely isn’t going to park in a lvl100 map but rather try to find a spot closer to his level so EXP is acquired). This could lead to difficulties later in active grinding/questing.

  3. Promotes users to abuse “safe zones” or glitch locations. This refers to players who will attempt to find spots where they can safely hold Z without any fear of being hit. Whether this is by jumping on some part of the terrain that is outside of the range of the monsters nearby or finding a spot on a wall that allows them to stand outside of hit box range, the user would be actively looking for locations to exploit or take advantage of. It could be contested though that these locations, when reported, could be addressed as they are found until they are no longer available.

  4. Laggy channels. If enough people do this then, instead of logging out of the game, the majority will choose to stay in-game, and possibly affect queues or channel populations. As each AFK player will be issuing attack commands via the Z key it is possible that some areas may feel heavily congested despite having a relatively limited number of active players in the region.

  5. Gives silver sellers a more reliable means to gain their stock. Once F2P launches there would be little to deter re-sellers from creating characters and parking them everywhere they can as this would be allowable practice. When considering these businesses may be running multiple clients per machine it could lead to immense server stress that would not be able to be punished if AFK+z were cleared. It could, however, be argued that there is nothing currently stopping them from doing the same thing with countless summoner classes though, and that even if AFK+z were banned that there would be other ways to non-actively gain silver for resale that are already possible and acceptable.

Have I missed anything? Please tell me and I will update the thread with additional pros and cons with your @name beside the number for credit. It’s early morning for me and I just woke so I attempted to recall some of the main arguments but I likely missed some (maybe even important ones).

@STAFF_Ethan @Staff_Julie @STAFF_John (not sending out a full summons, just to the most active staff I’ve seen in the forums)

Official word is long overdue. Any information you provide towards the resolution of this long-standing debate would be greatly appreciated.

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There’s already active threads about this subject and botting in general. Do you think there’s need for one more topic to echange thoughts on this matter?

I know your thread is more neatly organized but it doesn’t add much new into this subject. It just bugs me a little how new threads are popping up from the same topic very often and then you have to point out what is already being said when someone haven’t noticed the older threads that got swamped by this spam.

There’s a neat search function on these forums by the way. You don’t even need to hit the enter, it actively searches for topics for you when you start typing the keywords. I highly encourage people to try it out :smiley:

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I am not a new player and this debate has raged on throughout previous beta cycles.

In addition this has not been officially addressed in any other version of the game. The fact remains that, until IMC specifically states their stance on the matter, that threads “like these” will continue to pop-up.

I also encourage you to use the search function and note that these debates have raged for a very long time. If you find me their official response then I will delete the thread. If you do not find an official response, despite the game having launched, then I will leave the thread as-is so that users are able to see some of the different and varied arguments that have been raised in support of or against AFK farming.

By the way, the quote I linked from Ethan was to me, as I recently requested he change my forum name to Darkon from Shadeborn. I’m very aware of the topic at-hand. Thank you for your reply.

Another way to deal with these continuously popping up same-threads would be if you advertised your new topic on those previous threads by listing this as a linked topic on them or by adding links to previous threads on your opening post. Sorry, I didn’t come up with this suggestion before I posted my previous reply. All I want is not to have to keep track on multiple active threads about the same interesting topic :slight_smile:

Anyways, sorry for derailing.

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Z holding is no different than a bot presing Z every 0.1s…changes nothing i guess , bots are far more advanced than that

Good call mate. It’s irritating to see so many, I agree, because I’ve been in so many of the threads myself either reading or replying through the months. It started out for me as a “that’s not fair” and “that’s not right” argument against it when I first played the game but since then it has worried me more about the imbalance it would create if they disallowed it, favoring specific builds or classes, depending on their “fixes” they put in place against it. So, for now, I support it, although I see the concerns raised against it as well.

But I strongly feel IMC’s time is up lol this has been a perpetual grey-area that they’ve avoided (I dare say even intentionally) responding to in an orderly fashion. They also haven’t indirectly responded by implementing any means to deter the practice (discontinue Z from continuously attacking after 5 seconds of holding it, or any of the other million suggestions people have made).

And @davidskuall, I agree, plus there are a lot of factors that go in to play when considering the mechanical vs scripted debate, as in how to prove either way if someone is holding the key physically or simply running a third-party program (including built in peripheral software for rebinding keys with continuous or rapid presses). Or even being actively at the keyboard holding Z but also reading a book or something else; technically they aren’t away, they are just distracted, and the grey area is pushed even further. It would be hard to imagine an official response being re-worded fifty times to say things like “You’re not allowed to be in-game and hold a key while looking away from the screen; if you look away from the screen then you are considered “away” so multi-tasking is not allowed because if you miss someone’s question of “are you there?” and they report you then you will be subject to punishment” lol?

I think for myself, I define a bot as someone who has macros running that automate processes, where holding a single key is working as designed. But that’s just me, again both sides of the argument are valid in some ways, so it will be a hard decision for them to make. But we’ve waited a very long time for word on the matter and have yet to receive it.

A few thousand people talk about SEA servers and within weeks it happens. Tens of thousands of concerns raised in-game and in-forum about holding a key down and they’ve yet to give a response. What this tells me is they feel it is acceptable practice but that they don’t want to blatantly open the doors for AFK+z accounts to become legitimate for re-sellers.

Even just saying “Okay, months maybe even years later, the official word we decided on is… permanent grey area, sorry!” is better than nothing as taking a stance in the middle would still be taking a stance.

Well, I dont like that practice and it can be easily fixed: time limite for holding z, 10 seconds maybe.

Very true man, there are a lot of good suggestions like that throughout the forum, any number of which could effectively limit the practice of holding the Z key. But remedies like that alone would mean that while you are playing your game there are people out there AFK farming on summon classes (and maybe some other classes or combinations that come out later) who aren’t using the Z key at all. Which brings us back to the issue of fairness; if all players are discouraged from AFK farming then why are some classes allowed to if it isn’t specifically mentioned as a class perk but rather is just a side effect to having minions?

I mean there are several fixes that could happen at once like your suggestion, plus AFK detection methods, maybe even class revisions to disallow perpetual summons from being a thing, etc… but I think the fact would remain that, even if IMC decided to add a lot of features to prevent AFK farming, that they still will have not made an official statement on their stance regarding the matter.

What I’m looking for is that long-overdue response to the question we’ve all been asking for the better part of months and years.

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