Tree of Savior Forum

Thaumaturge C3, some buff mechanics, infodump

Lets start off with a short introduction to Thaumaturge~

Do you want to be a Thaumaturge?
No? Good, I wouldn’t want another one in my party anyways. You really don’t need 2 in a party.
Yes? Can you live with only rank 2 and rank 3 attack skills? I went linker so I literally had only 3 attack skills.

First of all, you get ZERO attack skills. Your class icon is green, all your skills are green, and playing it might even turn your face green. It is mainly a support class with some very potent buffs. Second of all, this isn’t a guide. Just an info dump on things you might want to know or have questions on regarding thaumaturge’s skills.

Let me explain my choice of going C3 Thauma. I went C3 because y’all peeps probably too busy trying out other classes. The majority probably won’t go C3 and I don’t feel like waiting for another C3 to pop out if ever, just so I can ask them questions. Plus I rather do all the in-depth testing myself so I can confirm the validity of claims. You only get Swell Brain as a new skill and most people rather test out another class rather than a single buff. Pretty pointless going C3 for a buff and some additional levels on your skills(slight boost and more uptime).


#MAIN BUFF SKILLS
#####aka straight-forward stuff

Literally just increases the stats you see in your stats sheet. Seems to be some misinformation somewhere but this skill does not add any extra hits like Sacrament and Enchant Fire, nor does it add damage to the extra hits. Swell buffs work strictly like Gung Ho.

Attack bonuses at 5/10/15
Keep in mind my attributes are maxed.

Swell Left Arm

68/111/154
+150 with maxed attributes

Final level cost

  • Buff has no effect when nothing is equipped in the main hand or the weapon is broken.
  • Weakened attack attribute lowers phy/magic attack by 5% per stack capping at 50%. Also there’s something causing 2 stacks to be applied at once with a single hit, not sure what.
  • Additional damage attribute works as long as shrink body debuff is on. This additional damage is affected by damage type modifiers and critical hits. It is not the same type of additional damage as Concentrate and Blessing. Might be better worded as “increased damage”.

###Swell Right Arm
68/111
+150 with maxed attributes

Final level cost

  • Swiftness attribute works exactly as stated. You get the bonus as long as a shield or dagger isn’t equipped.

Some number analysis on swell buffs

Total possible increased attack with:
1 circle into Thauma = 218
2 circles into Thauma = 261 + 218 = 479 (with dagger equipped), 261 more than C1
3 circles into Thauma = 304 + 261 = 565 (with dagger equipped), 86(231) more than C2
+145 INT if you also max out Swell Brain and attributes, but I’ll get to that later.

As you can see, even 1 circle into Thaumaturge can give you a nice damage boost but at the cost of another class. For me, I lose out on three ranks worth of skills from other classes but you can clearly see the trade-off. (nice stats for physical build also - picture is with full INT)

Now here’s the thing about buffs. If a buff has the same duration as the cooldown, it doesn’t actually have 100% uptime. For some reason or another, the cooldown and buff timers are not synced so usually you will find yourself having to wait a few seconds before you can rebuff.

Going C3 Thauma in this case can let you have 100% uptime on both of your main buffs. Unlike the previous two buffs, Swell Brain has a shorter duration than the cooldown, which, along with the desync difference, means that you will have a much lower uptime on it. Not to mention that it’s much less effective than your swell arm buffs, so it’s more likely that you won’t use it as often.


#THE DEBUFF SKILLS
#####aka decent but mostly unreliable
More levels = more targets = more duration, 2 charges overheat both, can sometimes be resisted.
The debuffs do not stack and will overwrite each other. Does not affect bosses.
Size change is buggy and monsters can get stuck big/small even when the buff runs out. This is only a visual bug and does not affect their stats.

Does not work on companions, summons, zombies, and such. It is a debuff not a buff, it doesn’t work on friendlies. Might work in a pvp setting (on enemy zombies, etc) however, but as you can see further below, a lot of things currently aren’t working.

###Shrink Body
Makes monsters go down a size level. Can be used on the same monster twice if it’s large.

###Swell Body
Makes monsters go up a size level. Will double their base life and heal them for base life. Can be used on the same monster twice if it’s small. Repeated uses will still heal them. Makes monsters drop twice the amount of items that they would have normally dropped.

  • Additional damage attribute deals damage equal to 20/40/60 percent of your magic attack when you change their size. It does not increase the damage of your other skills. This damage won’t proc if their size doesn’t change. The current description seems to be an error in translation.
  • Movement speed attribute does not work correctly. The movement speed portion of the attribute has no effect but the damage increase/decrease works on enemies. Neither part of the attribute effect works on players in duel. Only swell body’s double life effect works on other players and it doesn’t heal them.

###Reversi
Not a debuff but I needed to fit this somewhere
Flips enemy magic circles - literally. Also flips the graphic if available. Bugged interaction with skills like safety zone. Works on all skills that make some square tile on the ground. Self-confirmed non square tile skills: Zaibas, Fire Pillar, Slow. Doesn’t seem like it uses your own stats when you flip an attack skill like Zaibas or Fire Pillar. Fire Pillar will actually flip and point downwards.

Looks like it also works on bosses’ aura based traps.


#THE “I MADE A THAUMA C3 TO TEST THIS”
#####aka the interesting stuff
###Transpose
Switches your INT and CON. Doesn’t heal you for the difference in life you gain.
Attribute averages your INT and CON so they’re both the same.

  • Recasting will not swap your swapped stats. Skill icon oscillates yellow and white while active. (all swordman buffs seem to do this, finestra and guardian doesn’t and neither does the rest of thauma’s buffs)

See below for further tests its own section.

###Swell Brain
Temporary INT buff. Pretty underwhelming compared to your previous buffs. At least it scales burn.
+45 INT at level 5
+another 100 INT with maxed attributes (mines is at 0)

In a nutshell. :smirk:

Now here, they’re pretty straight forward. Literally does what it says. Now predict what happens when they get used together. The following was what I thought before iCBT1 even started when reading skill descriptions.

  • Transpose switches stats so it probably doesn’t apply to “additional stats” from gear.
  • Swell Brain is a temporary buff so it probably doesn’t get affected by transpose.

I found out I was wrong on the first point the moment I hit ThaumaC1. This already hints that my 2nd assumption is also wrong since it modifies literally what shows up on your stats sheet. Turns out, I was right that I was wrong.

buff mechanics start~


DEFENSIVE BUFFS ARE NOT RETAINED AS A PERCENTAGE MODIFIER.* (offensive buffs have their own way in the damage formula) They are given a value based on percentage or some amounts of flat values if not a percentage. For example, you have 100 def. You get an Aspersion 30% buff. The buff icon represents +30 defense, not a +30% defense modifier. What this means is that your buff order of operations matter. Here’s an example showing off a maxed swell right arm’s potency:

There is also another example with evade instead showing the “order of operations” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8q9NYe7moA (not me). Unfortunately if you’re buying aspersion from a buff vendor, this means that you will always be rebuffing AFTER aspersion is applied so the effect is lessened. The only buffs that persist across maps seem to be the same buffs that a pardoner can sell. Zoning will wipe all your buffs and recalculate aspersion’s bonus, so as long as you buy the buff on the same map you’re grinding/farming at, aspersion will snapshot the higher value if you buff before buying it.

Now here’s the funky business with Transpose which works similar to above. As a buff it does not convert anything. All it does is hold numeric changes.

Swell Brain > Transpose


The INT in the 3rd picture went back up to 28 when I recasted Swell Brain.

Transpose > Swell Brain

With a high duration transpose, you can make more use of swell brain’s low duration since you can snapshot that sweet +145 INT onto transpose. You can also use it with tranpose’s equilibrium attribute but it will tank your INT when it runs out which makes the free CON not so free.

Of course as mentioned earlier, transpose will leave you at your low pre-transposed life. This is intentional whether by balance or mechanics as you can see from how buffs work. If you want to be healed, play with a healer. I only soloed except for a few dungeons and if there’s one thing I can say, it’s that a PriestC3 would be the ultimate partner.

This post should be able to answer almost every single question on Thaumaturges that I can think of with the class itself. If you want to know about combinations with other classes, don’t ask me. I wouldn’t know how it’ll work with 100% certainty and don’t want to spread misinformation. Linker has potential with further ranks(7+) as Spiritual Chain and Life Line has much synergy with a C3 Thauma. I’m mostly confident about the information here, but please correct me if I’m mistaken about anything.


#EDIT: ABUSING TRANSPOSE AND STAT RESETS
#####potential pay to win exploit
Testing what transpose as a buff represents

  • ^in this case, when transpose runs out, your stats will appear normal as if you had just put all your points into CON.
  • Recasting transpose while it is still up does the same thing as canceling the buff and casting it. You will not transpose your transposed stats.

Edit: Too lazy for changelogs.

12 Likes

What happens if you use transpose when transpose is already on? Do the stats swap again?

And if the stats swap, doesn’t mean that you can infinitely increase your stats

So like let’s call CON stat C while INT stat I. Assume that transpose is ridiculously long (like lvl 15 or something)

1st transpose: CON = I, INT = C
Swell brain: CON = I, INT = C+45
2nd transpose: CON = C+45, INT = I
Swell brain (once cooldown is up): CON = C+45, INT = I+45
3rd transpose: …
See where I’m going with this?

Edit: Can you troll your teammates by reversi-ing their safety zone and zaibas?

1 Like

Reversi also works on a few boss traps (defence/attack down, slow and that silencing trap, the latter doesn’t affect bosses though).
Not that useful but still good to know.

@Pururu I’ve added your findings to the Reversi section.

@elysium I have added a section addressing your question about transpose.

As for reversi, not sure if it’s noticeable enough or not, but I’ve added “enemy” specifically to it. It doesn’t work on friendly tiles nor does it work on your own. But if I remember correctly, there used to be an attribute that allowed you to troll allies in the older beta. Looks like it was removed from the game though since it had no practical use because you could no longer flip enemy tiles.

I also went further and did further tests with transpose to confirm my suspicions. See the new edited section at the end of the post.

What bits of the swell buffs will do the funky damage stacking ala Sacrament+Blessing?

I imagine its only the bonus damage from the left arm+shrink combo attribute.

Thanks a bunch for this, I’m looking into making a thauma c2 or c3 soon. Do you know if the swell buffs work with bokor zombies?

@dmhamilt
It doesn’t do any of that. It does exactly as I showed in my screenshots. It just pumps up your damage like if you got a new weapon. Left arm + shrink isn’t additional damage like blessing or concentrate. There is no +text going on. It functions as if you had 135 increased attack like what swell left/right arm does which is why it gets modified by crits and attack type.

@zhouyu47
Pretty sure it doesn’t work on anything outside of your party. I mean it doesn’t work on random players, doesn’t work on your companion, why would it work on zombies which is neither. This conclusion is from extrapolating so it isn’t tested and I could be wrong.

Will edit main post with more clarifications.

It doesn’t work on my necro minions and didn’t work for party member sorcerer summons. It’s probably exclusive to players atm.

What does this mean exactly? Does it mean: Stats return to pre-Transpose state (like a snapshot of what your stats looked like before transpose?) Or does it mean that your stats change to what they should look like if you had used a stat reset on your pre-Transpose state. If it is the first, I think there are some possible issues with this …

What happens when you:

  1. Use Transpose.
  2. Use stat reset while Transpose is active.
  3. Don’t spend any points. Wait for Transpose to expire naturally or remove the buff manually.

I think there will be four/five possible outcomes?
A) Stats restored to pre-Transpose state and you are able to spend the points… (super exploitable)
B) Stats restored to a pre-Transpose state and you are not able to spend points (wasted stat reset and also raises concerns about what happens if you level up or worship a Zemyna statue while Transpose is active)
C) Stats change to what they should look like if you had used a stat reset on your pre-Transpose state and you are able to spend the unspent stat points (best bug-free outcome, I think)
D) Stats change to what they should look like if you had used a stat reset on your pre-Transpose state and you are not able to spend the stat points (birth of a really underpowered character …)
E) Something else entirely … lol

I’m hoping for outcome C, but the line I quoted from you and the fact that you use sandbox makes me think its gonna return to a pre-Transpose snapshot and end up with outcome A or B…

The result is C, maybe I should reword it. What I intended to say is that anything that happens in the transposed state will be reset or recalculated when it runs out or is recasted.

I don’t think it actually snapshots anything as a reference to return to since it seems it already keeps track of your base stats somewhere. However, it does take a snapshot to use as a starting value though. How I think transpose works is that the buff itself holds a INT and CON value and sets your stats equal to that value. Any changes in stats while the buff is up will affect the buff and not your base stats. This last statement might/might not be true but it works the same either way as long as transpose ending causes a recalcuation or something seeing as the INT>CON from swell brain returns to being INT when it ends.

This makes sense as only CON or INT will remain the same(depending on which stat you put all your points on) after a stat reset with transpose up and not with any other stat. If your stat drops below zero it will show up as a 1, but tranpose still sees it as a negative value. So any increases in that stat will stay as 1? until it cancels out the negative.

Explanation:
28 CON, 16 INT, 208 stat points

Swell brain
28 CON, 61 INT, 208 stat points

Transpose
61 CON, 28 INT, 208 stat points

Cancel swell
61 CON, -17 INT, 208 stat points,
61 CON, 0 INT, 199 stat points

The above picture is not a stat preview, it is after stats are applied. The preview will show your INT go up but will reset to 1 after you apply for any number of points below 9 (for my case). The attack preview however, is correct and you can see that your attack doesn’t go up until the 9th point.

9 points into INT gives me 17 due to rank bonus and regular stat bonus
This is a preview with normal stats.(without swell/transpose)
INT becomes 0 because it’s probably a <0 check and not <=0 check


https://forum.treeofsavior.com/uploads/default/original/3X/9/e/9e8453bb51f418bd3c2625ccba9720cafa2387e1.png
What happened here is this:

  • After canceling swell, INT is sitting at -17
  • At this point transpose itself represents 457 CON and -17 INT
  • After stat resetting, the 208 points into INT which equates to 396 INT is further subtracted
  • Transpose now represents 457 CON and -413 INT

You can probably guess the rest from here.

I just realized I could have tested with INT/CON gear instead of going C3 for Swell Brain. But then maybe buffs would have worked differently. Hindsight 20/20. Most of this can be tested with a C1 Thaumaturge.

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Do u think C2 thauma with max attributes swell buffs are more useful as compared to C2 chrono? Im torn between the two ;_;

Also is the additional bonus in attack a significant amount at higher levels?

Thanks!

I’d strongly support thauma over chrono.

Will the damage buffs of thauma stay relevant in pvp/higher level progression?

By going thauma i can build high con support builds while still being able to have decent auto attack damage for now i guess…

It won’t be as significant as it is now but it can still add a good portion of damage at a higher cap. If anything, you can at least see the buffs as being able to equip an extra weapon. Keep in mind this is only speculation as there isn’t much data on higher caps and your question is out of the current scope(like asking how good is a C3 necromancer). But at least, as of the current level cap, it adds quite a modest amount of damage.

You have to judge yourself whether or not you want to go Thauma though when the rank 7+ classes are released and if the tradeoff is worth it (though it might not interfere with anything since Thauma is only up to rank 6, but you don’t know what new things the rank 5/6 classes will get at 7/8). I wouldn’t really plan a “final” build at this point in the game, as it’s mainly to figure out how things work so you’d at least know your potential choices.

Base attack at level 600 is theorized to be ~2000, so the 450 from Thauma C2 ought to be fairly significant still.

Speaking of should it be a flat or % buff, not to underestimate the flat +565 base atk buff will scale with skill dmg % attribute as well.
There already many + magic dmg %, linker/wiz3 and etc, which will make thau hv no different.

A Pyro fireball lv10 + max atk buff could be as good as 1 meteor lv1 at rank5, if compare with elementalist.
You doesn’t many skills or high INT with Thau, the buff is enough to get you there.
While you can spare INT into CON, (you will need it, fireball/ground is close range skill) which I think Thau is better than Elementalist in sustainable damage.

Is swell body affected by your character AoE ratio ?

No, buffs and debuffs aren’t affected by AoE ratio. If it list the amount of targets, that’s how many it will affect. If it isn’t listed, it has no limit (like sleep and lethargy - as long as enemies fit within the aoe of the skill).

As a side note, looks like the latest kr patch is changing the swell attributes that affect movement speed.

쏘마터지 크기확대, 이동속도감소, 이동속도증가 특성 수정

Does the +int buff get affected by wizard’s bonus int?

No, you can even see in my screenshots that Swell Brain only adds 45.(Transpose > Swell Brain 2nd and 3rd images) The STR/INT bonus from ranks affects only the stats you put in from level ups.