Tree of Savior Forum

Team Dex Vs Team Str ( Trash talking, discussion, roasting each other, math magician war ) Aka Debate STR Vs DEX

Class and Rank Swordsman
#1140

Yup that correct.

May i add there is also a difference in crit rate and crit damage
it will be 426 crit damage and 360 crit rate. on both builds.

For Str R8 builds

The Pro : 554 pattack + 426 crit damage offset 360 crit rate.

For Dex

The pro : additional 360 crit rate.

Things to note Critical damage (inital boost) is T1-3 mod which is the same as attributes. After Base is added and when you crit it includes 50% additional damage. It adds into the total addition including skills.

The question is is this more than 554 patt or in dopple terms when dov 15 is out 831 patt in difference.

You must also note that with no dex your crit caps out at 286, with monstrance and quicken it is only 400 crit rate. This is only 32 %

where as a 365 build can reach a crit rate cap of 971 with monstrance and quicken which is nearly 95% crit rate.

We are unable to compensate crit rate with item limitation, but we are able to compensate damage due to transcend which is a 80% gamble or even higher 100% if you do it over time.

Crit damage compensation comes from item as well. Key note.

#1141

well, that stats are w/o equips and cards. You can pump more to str/con if you aim for around 350-370 dex (with x8 *10 ella), for patk/hp.

#1142

Second post for Damage on skill formula explanation vs CRIT Damage,

This is the key note here especially with for example Sturtzhau

Which is 4895 in skill damage. I will keep it simple and exclude attributes because base damage/ crit proc * attributes = total damage.

I will just put deeds in 15 here and STR VS DEX difference now is 554 pattack in this case. So for example your weapon is base 2k Pattack

Crit attack i will leave it as Dex = 300 Str = 746

Base pattack for dex = 300 , str will be 554+300 = 854

Total add up damage

Dex = 2300 patt
Str = 2854 patt

Deeds is added in with 2.5

Dex = 5750
Str = 7135

now we calculate skill damage Without crit

Dex = 5750 + 4895 = 10645

Str = 7135 + 4895 = 12030

Damage with crit.

Dex = 10645 * 1.5 + 300 = 16267.5

Str = 12030 * 1.5 + 746 = 18791

Assuming both sides are going crit rate gear (+ 280 ) on party terms with monstrance + quicken. So you can assume Dex builds will crit at 90%/100

Str build going at 40%

We will average out DPS in 10 hits of Sturtzhau

Dex will crit 9/10 hits.

Dex damage = 16267.5 * 9 + 10645 = 157052.5

Str will crit about 3/10 hits

Str damage = 18791 * 4 + 12030 * 6 = 147344

This is a difference with high skill damage. That include multi hits of cyclones on level 15.

This is the problem on 330. 280 is still fine and STR > dex due to the fact you can easily boost your crit rate onto 50% which is ALOT more beneficial to strength builds. As you level up your crit rate decreases. Monster resist up as well it’s shiet.

Where as Dex builds suffer more at R7 due to low skill base damage + transcend system wasn’t ready for them.

Now enjoy the maths.

TL:DR
DEX builds benefits more due to lack of crit gear. You can compensate damage with transcend and damage gears. They give + aoe ratio too.

Where as STR builds have to run full crit gear cap. They are still facing the issue and the additional damage from crit base + crit damage will not be as effective.

for those mechanics hungry peeps here you go.

1 Like
#1143

Then we factor in defense and how crit attack value ignores it. This is why yellow numbers sometimes can get significantly higher (% wise) than white numbers on high defense enemies, or on level penalty.

#justyellowjunkie

#1144

Looks like team DEX stop bashing you after you proof yourself that STR > DEX for Dopple DPS, lol

#1145

@akisera

How you liking your Doppel so far after resetting to DEX? Or do you regret switching?

#1146

apparently people stopped bashing him the moment he stopped doing a stupid reply, so it’s a good healthy discussion we can have now rather than stupid bashing all over.

also I didn’t read the above posts, but his vid is still R7, not R8. Should see what happens after.

#1147

I don’t think there is a need for bashing when everyone is down for a healthy discussion of what is happening.

This is still R7 where DOV 15 , Cyclone 15 , Zwerchhau 5 , Sturtzhau 5 is missing.

If you are following the topic closely. It was already mention due to the fact crit rate can be boost up to 50-65% with just current gear standing.

(290 crit or more 42*3 + 14 + 70 + 74(sissel) + 6 base))
Assuming manticen with 75 crit resist in this case

crit rate at R7 = ( (290 - 75)*42) / 280 = 32%

Crit rate at r8 = ((290-75)*42 ) / 330 = 27%

VS

Crit rate at R7 = (649 - 75)*42 / 280 = 86.1

Crit rate at R8 = (649 - 75)*42 / 330 = 73.1

This will change alot in R8 due to “Reverse scaling for crit.” well you will see what will happen when R8 comes. It’s self explanatory once we reach that stage.

You want to do a damage over time test? Just do a full rotation of the skill sequence
Cleave > Zwerchhau > Cyclone > Cleave > Cyclone
Cleave > Zwerchhau > Sturtzhau > Redel / Zornhau + Zucken

Record this damage on 1 rotation.

#1148

Add in Crit rate with similar setup + party buff (scroll monstrance and quicken from chrono)

R7

STR
((322.8 - 75) * 42) * 1.25) / 280 = 46%

DEX

(714 - 75) * 42 * 1.25)/280 = 119% <-- this is over shot but lel.

R8

Str
((322.8 - 75) * 42) * 1.25) / 330 = 39%

Dex
((714 - 75) * 42 )* 1.25)/330 = 101% <---- just nice.

Why is R7 stronger with STR? Key highlight. Due to low POWER skills.

Transcend wasn’t in it earlier until late. Critital damage is low as well from equipment boost. At most 350-600? (Phada x2 + weapon/gems/headgear)

Why is R8 Dex scaling better? Key highlight. No improvise crit rate gear.Skills are not % scaling.Unlike Cannoner/muskeeter etc. They are flat numbers…

#1149

@bintang_wowo u w0t m8?

#1150

To be honest, i just realized even at R7 DEX is better DPS than STR.

the real deal comes from this goddamn Glass mole cards.

Do note that even if you go FULL STR, even without the crit, it will deal enormous damage if paired with 70% damage modifier. (but it didn’t happen, because STR builds wants those yellow numbers, so they went 7x Ella cards)

Then comes DEX that gets amplified P.atk from different sources. and the ability to constantly deal Crit damage, which is another 1.5. paired with 70% bonus from Glass mole cards. that’s where the gap is.

then here comes R8 with another 10% bonus from glass mole…

To add up, HL3 has Armor break to deal with enemy DEF.

i can see why the famous route SW > HL3 > Barb1 > Dop3 comes to life. HL2 offers 3 Slash skills with decent cooldown and attributes, HL3 comes with Armor break. while Barb only picked for the cleave debuff. Dop3 amplifies Slash damage that makes this route popular now…

i’d say i’ll blame this glass moles card doing enormous amplification to damage…

#1151

SW > Pelt > HL3 > Barb1 > Dop3
thats R9 dude. :joy:

#1152

■■■■, what went wrong? lol oh right, why is there a ‘Pelt’ on my list, i didn’t even mention any synergy on it.

edited the previous post :card_box:

#1153

It’s actually almost the same or not enuff a little behind str con build at R7,

Simply because if you take out ellaganos x8 your crit rate will drop up to 20%
This doesn’t apply to STR because they are low on crit from the begining. Ellaganos adds at most 110 dex with monstance on no dex and about additional 200 dex with monstrance at high dex builds.

You gotta balance it off but that will still make you lack damage. Glass mole only last 4sec where as the deeds buff for physical is permanent so that a e.g 800 increase over permanent vs 4 second of spike

If you swap out a few it still still not enuff to match a full strength at R7. OR almost equally the same at certain 100% crit tweaks.

R8 is the killer as Cyclone and all the skill damages goes above 1.9k.

When you have skills going at flat numbers like this crit damage itself already provide

1.9 k* 1.5 - 1900 = physical raw attack power of 950 extra.

This was the killer. All skills have 0 scaling. to physical which make investing physical dead lock…

Also there is not a need for STR builds to go full ellaganos to make up for the 50% when you can gain 80% flat damage as well from glass mole.

Which makes up STR builds will eventually win at R7

Other conditions apply.

If say R8 since STR CON builds forsake crits totally and went for full damage.

It would means STR builds will lose out over time, Their initial burst will be fearsome for Dopple which make STR > DEX starting of rotation 1 and it will turn DEX > STR at rotation 2. Well because crit damage formula is retarded :V

Well all of this only applies to general swordsman. Fencers please ignore this part

#1154

Exactly! that’s why i miscalled aki’s build as Glasscannon. but then again, STR builds will always deal the Best damage at start. but that isn’t your typical scenario, and that’s where DPS is, a long dragging battle which favors dex.[quote=“unicorntheshiny, post:1153, topic:321139”]
This was the killer. All skills have 0 scaling. to physical which make investing physical dead lock…
[/quote]

another point they should absorb and accept. swordsman ain’t got skills like musketeer or cannon guys that have %% damage taken from their P.atk.

#1155

I hope they provide scaling for later ranks with more choices of gear though…

if not we are all lock into a single stat build -_-.

#1156

Crits in this game ignore defense like in RO? I actually never knew that

#1157

They don’t, the crit attack stat that is added at the end does.

#1158

Like what storm rider said.

Critical Attack stat and 1 point per str <<<<< ( the one you get from items.)
This is also know as True damage.

When you strike a critical (There will always be a total mod of 1.5x after defense reduction damage) then critical attack stat is added after it

Current as of R7 we all came to agree that STR is better at the edge as the skill damage is significantly lower.

Once R8 hit pretty much for Strength build to win a Dex build your invest of total damage must be > than Critical Mod (aka 1.5 of total damage). This is free for dex builds since Critical formula is a betch.

Until there is additional “specific scaling to strength” which currently there isn’t any sadly.

R7 = Str is generally better.

R8 = Dex wins in damage over time in a span of 3 minutes rotation.
Str builds are still decent just that, don’t expect to win a dex build over time lasted duration.

So in short

STR at R8 = Start out with a BOOM then constant pace without much explosion. Starts out at a good rate. Goes up slowly Constantly have small budge from random crits 10-30% in this case

Dex at R8 = Start out with small explosion and constant small explosion after it. Which is pretty much linear spiking up this way.

Graph for reference

Currently there are a few ways which can bring back stats build diversity again.
New crit accessories that gives us way higher crit rate. (like 120 crit each piece)

Implement a new system that add additional awakening stats such as crit rate.

Change and revamp of the stats structure itself where STR can add crit rate for swordsman and DEX does add minimal damage/maximum damgae lesser than str in compensation.

A total revamp of offensive and defensive skills to give % scaling. So this will make both STR + DEX equally important

It will become a free form.

HIGHLY NOTE this graph does not apply to fencer. Reason being Epee Garde exist.
When you have a additional 50% inclusive of Epee the spike is ridiculously to the point that making anyone who does not invest in crit rate losing so much damage overall.

#1159

As I said, the crit attack value ignores def. That is the value written on your F1 window. This then gets further modified by size/armor type, extra modifiers (like cleave +slash), AND attributes. CMIIW.