Tree of Savior Forum

Team Dex Vs Team Str ( Trash talking, discussion, roasting each other, math magician war ) Aka Debate STR Vs DEX

Class and Rank Swordsman
#1134

No problem there captain, that is actually something ‘DEX’ Builds will be looking forward, having high DEX at mid game, then power shift to STR at R9, DEX builds won’t be bothered much. infact, they will welcome it with open arms. also, they still got Base skill damage + attribute that benefits well with DEX via Crit. rate.

Where-in, early and mid game STR builds might find a hard time.

i actually wanted to have something like that happen, my dream of building a full-str Glasscannon swordie will come to live.

#1135

I’ve done such a thing before (also with manticen) with my own stats reset from STR to DEX (long ago) and yes I got my damage down, as expected, but it’s not all about damage. At least not everyone aims for raw damage only.

Thought it’s 100? Rather above average iirc, higher than demon lord bosses for sure. I take Manticen as my upper limit at crit sampling.

#1136

Demon lord bosses (280) area round 85-100,

Yea 200 manticen only has about 75 according to old stat profile. pretty sure it is correct @_@…

#1137

Isn’t that already happening, lel. The only real diversification in the game is class build, that is, if you dare step out of the meta with all the consequences.

#1138

Man, I’m loving that over 300 DEX test result actually (feckin card attachment update y u no hit my server already!!!). Satisfying.jpg

Even with just 295 DEX I’m evading WBs attacks AND skills reliably. iirc, someone, not Aki[?] claimed there isn’t such a thing as face-tanking WBs even mission bosses? Well he’s terribly mistaken. Mission bosses are laughable, simply stand in the mid of 2, cyclone, maybe get scratched 2-3 times lol. Of course I still try to manually dodge some obvious boss skills, like Marnox’s shoulder charge or Mirtis’s thunder strike (from above, electricity on the ground as cue) with simple side-step.

#1139

Finally, we can “discuss” w/o “bashing” on someone decision goin dex/str build.

Im seeing from your 1st vid (str build) at 0.14 (end of cyclone) before you put another cleave manticen hp was around 123k, the 2nd vid at 0.13 (end of cyclone) was around 157k.

Str build cyclone crit = around 26k(495STR-96DEX), Str dex 1:3 (188STR-347DEX)around 20-21k. Diff in patk each build about 400 perhaps? 800 with lv 10 dov? (1st vid patk 3532-3795, 2nd vid patk 2734-2997)
Here’s 280 R7 str-con with 35 bonus stats.

330 R8 str-con with 50 bonus stats.

330 R8 str-dex with 50 bonus stats.

Diff on str > 426+30% = 553.8 (554 patk). Bad at math someone cmiiw.

#1140

Yup that correct.

May i add there is also a difference in crit rate and crit damage
it will be 426 crit damage and 360 crit rate. on both builds.

For Str R8 builds

The Pro : 554 pattack + 426 crit damage offset 360 crit rate.

For Dex

The pro : additional 360 crit rate.

Things to note Critical damage (inital boost) is T1-3 mod which is the same as attributes. After Base is added and when you crit it includes 50% additional damage. It adds into the total addition including skills.

The question is is this more than 554 patt or in dopple terms when dov 15 is out 831 patt in difference.

You must also note that with no dex your crit caps out at 286, with monstrance and quicken it is only 400 crit rate. This is only 32 %

where as a 365 build can reach a crit rate cap of 971 with monstrance and quicken which is nearly 95% crit rate.

We are unable to compensate crit rate with item limitation, but we are able to compensate damage due to transcend which is a 80% gamble or even higher 100% if you do it over time.

Crit damage compensation comes from item as well. Key note.

#1141

well, that stats are w/o equips and cards. You can pump more to str/con if you aim for around 350-370 dex (with x8 *10 ella), for patk/hp.

#1142

Second post for Damage on skill formula explanation vs CRIT Damage,

This is the key note here especially with for example Sturtzhau

Which is 4895 in skill damage. I will keep it simple and exclude attributes because base damage/ crit proc * attributes = total damage.

I will just put deeds in 15 here and STR VS DEX difference now is 554 pattack in this case. So for example your weapon is base 2k Pattack

Crit attack i will leave it as Dex = 300 Str = 746

Base pattack for dex = 300 , str will be 554+300 = 854

Total add up damage

Dex = 2300 patt
Str = 2854 patt

Deeds is added in with 2.5

Dex = 5750
Str = 7135

now we calculate skill damage Without crit

Dex = 5750 + 4895 = 10645

Str = 7135 + 4895 = 12030

Damage with crit.

Dex = 10645 * 1.5 + 300 = 16267.5

Str = 12030 * 1.5 + 746 = 18791

Assuming both sides are going crit rate gear (+ 280 ) on party terms with monstrance + quicken. So you can assume Dex builds will crit at 90%/100

Str build going at 40%

We will average out DPS in 10 hits of Sturtzhau

Dex will crit 9/10 hits.

Dex damage = 16267.5 * 9 + 10645 = 157052.5

Str will crit about 3/10 hits

Str damage = 18791 * 4 + 12030 * 6 = 147344

This is a difference with high skill damage. That include multi hits of cyclones on level 15.

This is the problem on 330. 280 is still fine and STR > dex due to the fact you can easily boost your crit rate onto 50% which is ALOT more beneficial to strength builds. As you level up your crit rate decreases. Monster resist up as well it’s shiet.

Where as Dex builds suffer more at R7 due to low skill base damage + transcend system wasn’t ready for them.

Now enjoy the maths.

TL:DR
DEX builds benefits more due to lack of crit gear. You can compensate damage with transcend and damage gears. They give + aoe ratio too.

Where as STR builds have to run full crit gear cap. They are still facing the issue and the additional damage from crit base + crit damage will not be as effective.

for those mechanics hungry peeps here you go.

1 Like
#1143

Then we factor in defense and how crit attack value ignores it. This is why yellow numbers sometimes can get significantly higher (% wise) than white numbers on high defense enemies, or on level penalty.

#justyellowjunkie

#1144

Looks like team DEX stop bashing you after you proof yourself that STR > DEX for Dopple DPS, lol

#1145

@akisera

How you liking your Doppel so far after resetting to DEX? Or do you regret switching?

#1146

apparently people stopped bashing him the moment he stopped doing a stupid reply, so it’s a good healthy discussion we can have now rather than stupid bashing all over.

also I didn’t read the above posts, but his vid is still R7, not R8. Should see what happens after.

#1147

I don’t think there is a need for bashing when everyone is down for a healthy discussion of what is happening.

This is still R7 where DOV 15 , Cyclone 15 , Zwerchhau 5 , Sturtzhau 5 is missing.

If you are following the topic closely. It was already mention due to the fact crit rate can be boost up to 50-65% with just current gear standing.

(290 crit or more 42*3 + 14 + 70 + 74(sissel) + 6 base))
Assuming manticen with 75 crit resist in this case

crit rate at R7 = ( (290 - 75)*42) / 280 = 32%

Crit rate at r8 = ((290-75)*42 ) / 330 = 27%

VS

Crit rate at R7 = (649 - 75)*42 / 280 = 86.1

Crit rate at R8 = (649 - 75)*42 / 330 = 73.1

This will change alot in R8 due to “Reverse scaling for crit.” well you will see what will happen when R8 comes. It’s self explanatory once we reach that stage.

You want to do a damage over time test? Just do a full rotation of the skill sequence
Cleave > Zwerchhau > Cyclone > Cleave > Cyclone
Cleave > Zwerchhau > Sturtzhau > Redel / Zornhau + Zucken

Record this damage on 1 rotation.

#1148

Add in Crit rate with similar setup + party buff (scroll monstrance and quicken from chrono)

R7

STR
((322.8 - 75) * 42) * 1.25) / 280 = 46%

DEX

(714 - 75) * 42 * 1.25)/280 = 119% <-- this is over shot but lel.

R8

Str
((322.8 - 75) * 42) * 1.25) / 330 = 39%

Dex
((714 - 75) * 42 )* 1.25)/330 = 101% <---- just nice.

Why is R7 stronger with STR? Key highlight. Due to low POWER skills.

Transcend wasn’t in it earlier until late. Critital damage is low as well from equipment boost. At most 350-600? (Phada x2 + weapon/gems/headgear)

Why is R8 Dex scaling better? Key highlight. No improvise crit rate gear.Skills are not % scaling.Unlike Cannoner/muskeeter etc. They are flat numbers…

#1149

@bintang_wowo u w0t m8?

#1150

To be honest, i just realized even at R7 DEX is better DPS than STR.

the real deal comes from this goddamn Glass mole cards.

Do note that even if you go FULL STR, even without the crit, it will deal enormous damage if paired with 70% damage modifier. (but it didn’t happen, because STR builds wants those yellow numbers, so they went 7x Ella cards)

Then comes DEX that gets amplified P.atk from different sources. and the ability to constantly deal Crit damage, which is another 1.5. paired with 70% bonus from Glass mole cards. that’s where the gap is.

then here comes R8 with another 10% bonus from glass mole…

To add up, HL3 has Armor break to deal with enemy DEF.

i can see why the famous route SW > HL3 > Barb1 > Dop3 comes to life. HL2 offers 3 Slash skills with decent cooldown and attributes, HL3 comes with Armor break. while Barb only picked for the cleave debuff. Dop3 amplifies Slash damage that makes this route popular now…

i’d say i’ll blame this glass moles card doing enormous amplification to damage…

#1151

SW > Pelt > HL3 > Barb1 > Dop3
thats R9 dude. :joy:

#1152

■■■■, what went wrong? lol oh right, why is there a ‘Pelt’ on my list, i didn’t even mention any synergy on it.

edited the previous post :card_box:

#1153

It’s actually almost the same or not enuff a little behind str con build at R7,

Simply because if you take out ellaganos x8 your crit rate will drop up to 20%
This doesn’t apply to STR because they are low on crit from the begining. Ellaganos adds at most 110 dex with monstance on no dex and about additional 200 dex with monstrance at high dex builds.

You gotta balance it off but that will still make you lack damage. Glass mole only last 4sec where as the deeds buff for physical is permanent so that a e.g 800 increase over permanent vs 4 second of spike

If you swap out a few it still still not enuff to match a full strength at R7. OR almost equally the same at certain 100% crit tweaks.

R8 is the killer as Cyclone and all the skill damages goes above 1.9k.

When you have skills going at flat numbers like this crit damage itself already provide

1.9 k* 1.5 - 1900 = physical raw attack power of 950 extra.

This was the killer. All skills have 0 scaling. to physical which make investing physical dead lock…

Also there is not a need for STR builds to go full ellaganos to make up for the 50% when you can gain 80% flat damage as well from glass mole.

Which makes up STR builds will eventually win at R7

Other conditions apply.

If say R8 since STR CON builds forsake crits totally and went for full damage.

It would means STR builds will lose out over time, Their initial burst will be fearsome for Dopple which make STR > DEX starting of rotation 1 and it will turn DEX > STR at rotation 2. Well because crit damage formula is retarded :V

Well all of this only applies to general swordsman. Fencers please ignore this part