Tree of Savior Forum

Swordsman is a joke DPS at high levels, but why? (this post was made in April, before R8)

Class and Rank Swordsman
#22

Let’s be honest here; Swordsmen have no real role as a damage dealer aside from being easily kited jokes.

In PVE, even if you compare Zucken to either of those abilities, it’s FOUR ATTACKS vs… 30… or vs something with a 300% scaling.

Even if we assume It has shock debuff and therefore something like 100-200% scaling (My bet’s on 100% a la skyliner and bleeds), we’re talking…

860 (Base, level 5) + Weapon+ strength mod (Let’s assume 200 ish strength and a 400-500 weapon, which may be unrealistic, but whatever…)
So we’ve got…
860+250+400-500-> 1510-1610 *2 (100% due to shock)-> 3020-3220 *4= 12k-12.6k?

Without scaling, the musket attack is already half of that, and the frost cloud is a great deal more.

This is INCLUDING the fact that the swordie has to be in melee range and all the preconditions (shock, mainly) has to be set up.

Perhaps not a big deal in PVE (Though, it is more difficult as bosses aoe like trucks), but in PVP? Hell, the ranged characters do it from range and mock the swordsman.

Let’s assume for the sake of argument that it’s compared to cyclone, which is 1355 base damage/hit (level 10) and, for the sake of argument i’ll say there’s a hit of .2 seconds (Someone correct me if i’m wrong, because I don’t know how many hits cyclone is).

As before, str + weapon I’ll assume to be something like 650-750 (Probably way off, as mentioned before…)
Which then becomes about 2k a hit for Roughly 25 or so hits?
Whirl wind then, is somewhat comparable to Elementalist frozen cloud except… The swordsman has to be next to whatever they’re hitting, which is a LOT higher risk then plop down the cloud and run around or whatever.

*Cloud at low levels just by math 643+200(staff or rod)+ 200 (int) *30= 30.4k ish, but from distance

Granted, these numbers might be on the low side (I’m suspect I’m super undervaluing str + weapon and attributes aren’t included), and other factors, but I mean, swordsmen do get more health sure, but they also are in melee and health means diddly squat according to just about everyone, and are much less likely to get their full damage off.

Also, as to why people didn’t include the +50% versus cloth, it’s because usually cloth based monsters are squishier anyway.

Edit: Tl:DR Yes, swordsmen in general are jokes at damage dealing. Fact of Life. Go reroll to archer or wizard if you want to do damage. Unfortunately.

3 Likes
#23

God, my cleric doesn’t deal as much damage as a Wizard, IMC, work on that.

Honestly speaking guys, Wizard is magical attack, Cleric is magical support, Archer is physical attack, Swordman is physical support.

You obviously can make a cleric into a magical killer, but it will never be better or even close to as good as an Elementalist 3 in terms of magical damage.

You don’t see archers complaining they’re not tanking enough.

Seriously, I see some level 170+ swordies with less than 15k HP and I really don’t get the point of what they think they’re doing, this is the class that benefits the most from CON, probably the best stat ingame.

Parties are 5 members setup, you can be sad and cry all you want but no one builds a Wizard to lure mobs and tank monsters, so you shouldn’t be a Sman if what you really want is a DPS character (though you still can be, because the game is versatile enough, just don’t hope to be better at most scenarios).

13 Likes
#24

Every class gets killed by magic attacks cause they can’t be evaded, and what does barb or highlander provide anyways? skills that you won’t use ever again once your rank 7?

#25

Ok let’s say i am IMC and I have made your wish come true.

I now made swordsman do as much as DPS as archer, while still bein naturally tank becouse we’re swordsman right ?

now what will happen ? people will pick swordsman over archers for DPS, and archer CANT DO ANY OTHER ROLE BESIDE DPS.

so ? people will not pick archer becouse it’s squishy that can die any moment, and who care swordsman will deal the same DMG right ?

what will happen is crying from swordsman, will go into crying about archers.

it’s pretty simple !
4 CLASSES.
4 WAYS TO PLAY.
each does specialise in something else!

  1. DD.
  2. CC / DD.
  3. Heal Support / DD (omg they even gave you option for this and you cry)
  4. Tank / DD.

i’lll let you figure out characteristic for them alone, bet you’ll get them pretty fast.

3 Likes
#26

Closed beta was hell for archers, was the one class that couldn’t do its only job

4 Likes
#27

If you enchant a ranged weapon +10 they no longer have the penalty anymore.

They do for this sole reason and for 50% faster skill casting, Meteor, Hail and did I mention they also gain a FREE rank 7 choice of whatever they want? Rune Caster? Warlock? Both great because the elementalist reaches the full potential for damage with just 6 circles while Zornhau stays terrible and NEEDS 6 and 7 circles and did I mention it is terrible?

You are being retarded. Those skills are never picked because Musketeer has another nuke of 3000+300% skill too called Headshot that also does the same Zornhau does!

##Attack: 300% + 3953 (INT, SPR: -25)

IN THE SAME MUSKETEER CLASS, FOR FREE!

Your ability to try and lie in this thread is magical, I give you that.

As a Doppel C2 level 250, let me talk you about Zornhau and Zucken since you have no clue what you’re talking about.

Zornhau is a flat 2.5k hit. Doesn’t scale. Gains no bonuses unless the mob is the rares armor type: Cloth. Deals 50% less to Plate and Ghost type, not 75%.

Zucken is terrible skill. Here’s why:

  • The damage bonus is 30% to Zucken
  • Level 5 Zucken is impossible because people max Cyclone
  • Even if you max Zucken it’s only 800 damage and 3 hits
  • it needs 180 SP to use
  • Still is a long 20 second cooldown

Please don’t talk about a class you have no knowledge of. Zucken, Redel and Zornhau are the only 2H sword exclusive skills in the game and they all have these damage values:

###Zucken

  • 800 damage, flat, no bonus
  • 180 SP cost (this is a lot to a Swordsman)
  • 20 second cooldown
  • 30% bonus if target is shocked
  • 3x hits of 800 = 2400 damage THAT’S IT

###Redel

  • 700 damage
  • 25 second cooldown
  • 3x hits of 700 = 2100 damage THAT’S IT

Zornhau you already know or at least pretend to know.

Let’s not talk about how no Doppel C2 even has enough points to max these skills and they won’t, because they are terrible. Cyclone is the only ability worth maxing and the rest are just terrible.

1 Like
#29

I understand that this is a rhetorical question, but I’m going to answer the question anyway.

In ToS you trade squishyness for ability to do damage. You either play a squishy class with high damage or you sacrifice damage for survivability.

OP here seems to want to have his cake and eat it too, swordies can’t have BOTH survivability and damage output, that would be silly. Pick one, the other or make a middle ground, you don’t have to ultra-specialise though.

1 Like
#30

I really do not understand why none swordman skill give % attribute (strength) so wrong it

#31

Sorry, but I dont agree you.

This game got hype from different reasons, but one of them was about how many different classes it has so we are not clones.

But… as you and others are saying here, a swordsman has to be almost full con and choose tank classes because there is not reason to get any dps classes, you are going to do less damage than wiz or archers at the end…

Same for others classes, if I build a cleric, I am force to be the support class in a party, I dont agree that.

what I mean is, if swordsman is a tank and only tank class, there is no reason for lots of classes in that branch… and the same for others.

8 Likes
#32

Highlander and barbarian in high lv look pretty cute when they try to deal damage. Im highlander c3 man, and even with 2-hand sword it still weak.
People who say it strong actually havent reach 220 or even havent played SW.
Let me make it clear, here is what class balance should be:

  1. Cleric uhm…they are fine for now.
  2. Archer should be mobile class with high accuracy and evasion, deal highest damage on single target (NOT AOE), fast attack with multi hit.
  3. Wizard should be AOE, seem fine now.
  4. SW should have high damage in AOE melee, as i said, stop talking about dash because it will be broken when you get 1 HIT, everyone have problem with magic dmg, but for SW? things only get worse because of range.
2 Likes
#33

that is true Awooo, in fact you are right. I am not a swordsman player, but If I am a player who loves melee classes, and I want to hit hard, that is not possible in this game. But there are others korean mmo where you can be a great dps and melee, I think it should be a possibility in this game too.

I have always been a monk when I play MMO, sometimes I am totally forced to support. But it was so fun to play as a monk in Ragnarok Online. And I think a game like this, it should let us to others possibilities than the main one.

2 Likes
#34

The problem seems to be that swordsman has really not a single skill that scales well…
Like (xxx% Attack+xxxxdmg).
Even from cleric Sadhu and Bokor have such skills.
Seems a bit strange for me…

2 Likes
#35

Think about world boss people, where SW and Cleric healer + buff def = trash. I got the dullahan’s cube twice as SW not because im strong or something like that, because of these things:

  1. my friend is shinobi WITH SPEAR.
  2. His lv is much much higher than others.
  3. Superior gear.
  4. 3 Warlock in my team lol
    Whats the meanings of being tanker and sp healer in that place then?
#36

Cause enchanting is really easy.

They need quick cast for a reason, they can’t sit there charging for 5+ seconds.[quote=“celgaming, post:27, topic:220944”]
You are being retarded. Those skills are never picked because Musketeer has another nuke of 3000+300% skill too called Headshot that also does the same Zornhau does!
[/quote]

Cause cussing and accusing always wins people over, the game is ever changing, they will move some musk abilities to musk 2 for balance, happened with sorc 1 and necro 1 because they were an overloaded one rank wonder.

and yea keep comparing class the classes, Swordie has more flat defense almost triple the base health compared to the rest of the classes, his AOE attack ratio is 4.
If swordsman wasn’t meant to aggro mobs and solo effectively then who should?

#37

I think part of the problem here is that there isn’t a rock/paper/scissors to the defensive balance.

Other games solve this defensive issue by making you weak to magic if your defence gets very high, or by sacrificing mobility for defence, etc. This doesn’t seem to be an option in ToS.

In the future I hope to see more depth to the defensive balance, this would then allow them to give both a defensive and offensive build for swordies while still giving them a significant weakness.

What they can’t do is give one class both DPS and Defense unless it also gives that class some sort of significant weakness. The other classes do have a weakness and it’s that they have to constantly move around.

I would be happy if defensive abilities were added to later ranks that come with a negative of either rooting the swordies in place or strictly limiting their movement. By doing this the swordsman would be able to build a DPS then use defensive skills to stop themselves from being made of glass, the downside being that they MUST kill the opponent before their defensive buff wears off else they’re dead with the mobility debuff.

Just a thought.

1 Like
#38

Isn’t dullahan lvl 190 ish tho?
Spear is meant to do well against targets with armor and bosses…
You have 3 warlocks, kill the target before he damages you.
potions and cure scrolls exist

#39

This is what you believe, as what the game should be is an extremely subjective and opinionated topic that varies.

Archers used to be ■■■■. Like, absolute rubbish. They had very little relevance when a Swordsman was way tankier, had more utility and knockback, and dealt more damage as Barb was broken in terms of damage output. They were buffed because of their pointlessness, very hard and it still shows even with tweaks from iCBT to now. Barb had a huge meta behind it, which is why it was nerfed (and buffed again) to balance out.

I’m not trying to justify Archer’s damage, but if Swordsmen are buffed too hard, Archer will lose relevance once more as a physical damage dealer. Would they matter if someone who could take hits and deal extreme numbers took precedence compared to them?

I do think certain Swordsmen classes need some scaling on their core skills, but honestly I don’t think they need that much. A helpful push if anything.

1 Like
#40

i cry on flying maps :sob:

#41

I just think that swordsman class isnt fully implemented yet.
Why does Doppel 2 Zucken cost 223 SP? What other skil in the game does consume such a high amount of SP?
All Musketeer/Canoneer or even Meteor at max lvl cost less SP and deal way more damage.
That makes absolutely no sense.
Also classes like Shinobi or Fencer, they seem like quickly implemented so that swordsman has another circle, without giving much thought about them.
We are likely still in Beta…
Swordsman 3???
They are so many useless or bugged skills in the whole swordsman class.
Don’t know if thats the same with the other classes though.

#42

Man archers damage is fine for now and should be that high, problem is SW damage is too…cute.
And thats why i said archers should be high mobile and eva class.
Thats balance, blance and balance…
I dont think barbar should get buff which make them OP like in beta, but atleast dont make them too weak. Skills cooldown is nothing when you dont have enough SP and you will die before out of mana.

1 Like