Tree of Savior Forum

Swift Step polarizes the entire archer class tree

Class and Rank Archer
#1

So, I’ve been theorycrafting around my favorite class (Mergen) lately, and I came to be absolutely annoyed by the fact that every single viable archer build requires circle 2 due to swift step’s critical rate attribute.

Since the combat mechanics patch, dex no longer gives critical rate. The equipment building nowadays resolves around balancing critical rate sources without sacrifing too much.
Too little critical rate, your damage scales linearly.
Too much critical rate, your damage scales greatly, but without a good base. Except when you have a good weapon.

So if you’re well geared, reaching high critical rates gives way better scaling than any other kind of set up. As it should be.

But critical rate sources are scarce in the game. Other than equipments, there are very few ways for archers to acess this status.

Considering the (a) importance of critical rate and (b) how difficult to get it, 150 “free” critical rate from swift step is HUGE. It’s so big it shadows every single other form of building archers.

Every single meta or build that is considered viable post patch needs archer 2.

From the most popular classbulding ranks, these are the archer setups:

A2 - Sapper3 - Falconer 3
A2 - Sapper2 - Fletcher 3 - Mergen
A2 - Quarrel Shooter 3 - Falconer 3
A2 - filler - SWR3
A2… anything

There are only 2 exceptions to this archer 2 spreading:

  • A1 - Ranger 3 – SWR3 + filler, which are no longer viable setups and were popular builds before changes in DEX
    Wugushis, cuz poison doesnt crit lol

So, my point is: Archer 2 is essential. Your build is probably not viable without it.
And it’s bad for the game.
Why? Cause it gates other class combinations

A lot of other intereseting combinations are GOOD (i’m not criticizing them), but they are completely shadowed by the necessity of archer 2.

Most archer builds are built around rank 5 or 6 core classes, which are rogue/fletcher, falconer/SWR, and since archer 2 is required, they share a problem: you need to fill 2 ranks, and can’t make use of other combinations.

If you pick a circle 3 lower rank class (ranger, QS, hunter, wugushi), you are required to sacrifice a higher class circle 3
Same for the contrary. If you choose to pick up a circle 3 higher class (fletcher, rogue, falconer, SWR), you need to pick up these 2 filler ranks. And most of the time you are left unsatisfied.

Circle 2 ranger its ok, but Circle 3 would be a game changer
Circle 2 sapper is ok, and Circle 3 sucks
Circle 3 scout sucks since split arrow was changed. Period.
Circle 3 hunter is viable only with Circle 3 falconer. No DPS fits well
Circle 3 QS requires you to sacrifice a higher rank class

A lot of builds would be viable and intereseting if archer 2 wasnt required.

Ranger 3 + Fletcher 3 variations
QS3 + Rogue variations
Scout3 + Cannoner variations (lol, blowing people out of stealth)
Any kind of falconer 3 + lower rank classes with nice aoe skills but low aoe attack
Wugushi 3 + Sapper 3
SWR builds variations

Archer 2 doesnt really add anything intereseting to the archer tree. Its just a plain dumb flat status that is so good it overshadows other classes.

Even the most popular DPS archer build right now (a2 - sapper 2 - fletcher 3 - mergen) doesn’t really pick sapper 2 because it fits well and has a good sinergy (you basically waste 2 ranks for broom trap, and maybe detonate for magic arrow shenanigans), but cause it’s the option that sucks less to fill the 2 rank hole between archer and fletcher. What if archer 2 wasnt mandatory?

Imo it needs to go. It would open a lot of class diversity.

Look at wizz tree diversity when they removed the quick cast 50% matk buff, a shitton of builds became viable simply because wizz3+ele3 wasnt THE best option.

The archer class could use a overhaul regardind this.

Removing the attribute tho would leave the upper circles absolutely trashed. It could be moved to circle 3 (altough it wouldnt really solve the problem, and would polarize builds even more), or imo it should be removed and the archer 2~archer 3 circles be changed to be more interesting.

A few suggestions:

  • Twin arrow no longer overheats. This skill is so ■■■■ it gets outdamaged by a level 4 barbed arrow. Keeping the low dmg would avoid it steamrolling through early game content, while keeping the identity of the only archer skill that doesn’t overheat, while having a very low mana cost and delay/ animation. Would be great to spam while bigger skills are on cd, or when you are to kill that annoying loner mob what decided not to follow you. It kinda already does it right now, but it overheats and there are better options that doesn’t require an entire circle for it.
  • Whats even the point of heavy shot? Outdated skill. Could open up for a entirely new skill or be updated to behave more like an AoE full draw
  • Kneeling shot is soooooo clunky and slow to enter/ leave. Could use an overhaul in the mechanic (would be an interesting option to AA based builds, and BM its near the corner, sooo…)

Thats it. I said the same thing a lot of times. Rant over.
Sorry for my english. Not my first language lulz

OH, WHILE WE’RE ON THE SUBJECT: Please change ALL bow skills to scale with ASPD. It feels SOOOOOO clunky for me (ranger, fletcher, mergen) that most of my skills (triple arrow, spread shot, barrage, twin arrow, spiral arrow, barbed arrow, crossfire) scale with aspd, but magic arrow, broadhead and DMA don’t. I feel my character just sits there while ■■■■ is happening, while aspd scaling skills feel super fluid and are satisfying to use.

2 Likes
#2

if you main a rogue, you will understand how little 175-200 crit rate is and archer2 isnt a necessity

3 Likes
#3

Yeah, I agree that Swift Step really makes most of the Archer build having to catch the C2, 150 Critical rate is huge right now, around 2 Green lvl 7 or 8 gem if I not mistaken?

They kinda could move the attribute to Archer 1, the thing scales with Swift step level anyways.

3 Likes
#4

same with cleric2 basically

5 Likes
#5

Archer2-Ranger1-Scout1 and Archer2-Ranger1-Wugu1 are actually pretty good “2-rank” fillers that you can take after Archer2. You can also take Rogue 1 or 2 as rank5-6 fillers as well for even more crit so I never really felt restricted with Archer 2 having the crit attribute.

I think the bigger more annoying issue is having lower ranks that are forced to scale with shitty un-transcended mainhand attack while your main class is actually using the sub-weapon. All the late ranks have weapon restrictions anyway so aside from Mergen, Fletcher and Falconer (and some for musketeer) the earlier ranks are just utility fillers, making swift step archer 2 not such a big deal really

#6

On One side i perfectly agree with you, the amount of build revolving around Swift step critical rate is too much.
On the other side i think going Archer 2 is necessary as Archer 1 is trash.

150 more critical rate is actually useful because:

A) you face an enemy with 165 crit res, you have 300 crit rate = 19% crit chance
THEN swift step , 450 crit rate = 30% crit chance (+11% crit chance)

B) A level 6 green gem add 38 crit rate, meaning x5 lvl6 green gem = 190 crit rate, Swift step is still cheaper
However if stacking crit rate is more difficult and therefore “Swift step: critical rate” has more importance, critical Attack is worse than before and requires a lot of DEX
In my opinion, due to lag limitations too, going with more STR and red gems is fine.
I was planning a non-meta A1-Qs3-Wugu1-Falc3-Mergen1 (where Archer 1 is completely useless)

lastly after trying rogue i agree with @myself , A2 isn’t necessary

TL;DR
Archer2 is a cheap upgrade but not essential, Archer1 is trash

@nightrain_scy at least cleric1 has Heal, Cure and Safety zone, A1 has nothing

#7

They should make some interclass Attributes, like Elementalist has

i.e: Steady Aim gets an attribute that gives 5 crit rate per level(max lv 10) if you have Swift Step lv5

Give a similar option for Quarrel.

Keep in mind that imc gave both Quarrel and Ranger Crit Rate Options almost of equivalent value as 150CR [High Anchoring attribute(-75 cRes) for Ranger and Rapid Fire(-150 cRes) attribute for Quarrel] what makes swift step better is the useability of the effect.

->Cleric
Give Priest/Krivis an attribute that gets 1more OH on heal or increases Heal squares.Or simply make your current heal skill heal % more.

3 Likes
#8

That’s actually pretty cool, I totally forgot about Elementalist attributes with Pyro and Cryo, it would be nice if we had more attributes that need previous class choices.

#9

I really wouldnt say that Archer2 is the issue, but rather that other lower rank archer classes are pretty underwhelming compared to Archer2 when used as a filler rank.
Quarrel requires 3 circles, Ranger is c1 or c3, Sapper is c2, and Hunter is uh… yeah…
You don’t really have too many other decent filler options, aside from the usual ones. If they made Quarrel1/2, Hunter, and Sapper 1 more effective as filler, players could have abit more to work with.

Archer2 is just one of the better (unless you’ve touched the glory that is 'Woof card + Sneak Hit) options right now.

And js, Twin Arrow > Lv.4 SP Eater Arrow anyday

1 Like
#10

I don’t think PvP players will agree with that, even PvE players. The Shield Block attribute is really powerful when your Shield is greatly upgraded.

Most of SR builds are using Ranger2.

For interclass Attributes, Canon has an attribute which increases Critical Rate by +10% for Canon skills while using Kneeling Shot. But yeh, we have seen better than this.

I totally agree with the Attribute of SS at rank 1 now they changed how it works.

#11

I wasn’t referring to pvp, but yes. Shield block has its uses.

Reiter is an exception, because if you do choose Rogue1 or Appraiser over Ranger3 at r5, there isn’t much else to pick from.
Archer3 and Quarrel3 are pretty redundant due to Limacon, Sapper and Hunter require dismount, and Scout1 is pretty lackluster.
Wugu… maybe with Velnia cards.

1 Like
#12

The point here is balancing the core function of the class within those early ranks.

That’s why Cleric is the best example, as the only core healer class it’s easier to notice a difference between Healing between the 3 first rank combinations.

Rank 2 on healing

Cleric 2 VS Priest 1 VS Krivis 1

Heal 11 VS Heal5+Ressurection VS Heal 5 +Aukuras

As you can see, both options give an alternative to heal, it’s the method of healing that differs: Ress is a post death heal, Aukuras is a slower and static Heal.

It’s really easy to rank them in method efficiency Heal11>Aukuras>Ress

The problem is that imc ignored the method and balanced it only on value. The classes with less efficient methods should have better value to compensate, but sometimes the method is SO bad that it has to be buffed there or the skill will never work.

This design flaw appears in all the aspects of class roles, damage skills, buffs,debuffs,support skills etc…That’s why the game feels so unbalanced.

#13

Same with cleric2 - Divine Might, Attribute SafeZone, more Heal, Fade…

Same with Wizard2 - Sure Spell.

I think only Sword is not in this because Restrain is not extremely necessary, but if Pain Barrier was in Sword2, he would be in the same situation.

#14

with the critical rate formulas it goes something like this:

assuming that the enemy has 0 crit resist

679 crit rate=50% crit chance
920 crit rate=60% crit chance

So, 689 crit rate is pretty achievable without swift step, and more than that its just “meh” , so archer2 is not really mandatory imo.
Also most of mechanics are planned according to end gear, who in the hell will bother balancing low grade equipment Dx

#15

Same thing goes for swordsman circle 2-3. Low duration pain barrier sucks.

#16

Or like making it last longer at least, it would be great to have a Steady Aim buff with nice duration but not like a lot

#17

The problem lies mainly not with Swift Step but with the alternatives that Archer has at C2, which are Ranger and Quarrel Shooter.
Those two Classes are simply too niche to build into your character if you focus on a Rank 6-8 build, as most of these Classes use mainly their subweapon (Bullet Marker, Schwarzer Reiter, Cannoneer) or a twohanded weapon (Musketeer) and thus don’t really have any use for bow-related skills in the later Ranks.
Meanwhile, Archers Swift Step & Kneeling Shot stay relevant even for the higher-Ranked Classes as boosts/utility improvements.

#18

I agree. But even if your build has the potential to use the 2nd rank classes, it gets shadowed by archer 2.

An example: Archer 1 -> Ranger 3 -> Fletcher 3 -> Mergen 1 or 2 is supposed to be an AoE burst archer that attacks from afar and deals a shitton of damage with high CD
But you need crit for it to work, so you have to give up either fletcher 3 or ranger 3 in order to get swift step from archer 2. Giving up fletcher 3 aint gonna happen due to magic arrow, so you have to give up ranger 3. Ranger 2 doesnt really fills the fantasy, and gets outclassed by sapper 2.
So sapper 2 performs better in terms of AoE, mob control and single target damage because you HAVE to give up ranger 3. The A1 R3 F3 M1 should perform better in situations that you have to burst a lot of mobs togheter, but the simple sheer force of brute critical rate necessity forces this build out of meta. Even if you have steady aim lv 15 and shoot the ■■■■ out of monsters with triple arrow/ spread shot/ crossfire, the critical rate is more beneficial.

QS3 sucks because autoattacking sucks. If would be neat if the falcon in falconer 3 could attack without a delay, so you could proc it more often if you attack faster (kind of the way the hunter’s falcon in ragnarok behaves). Autoattacking gets outdamaged by every single form of skill DPS, so an auto attack based class won’t shine in this meta anyways.

Also the autoattacking class (SWR) that is supposed to benefit from QS3 ranks doesn’t really, so whats the point when there’s no synergy when it’s supposed to?

Let’s see how autoattacking barrages behave with BM incoming

#19

Well, before the Dungeons massive EXP buff, any swordsman without Peltasta’s Swashbuckling was doomed to oblivion without parties to grind
Thank god we can hit max level with just dungeons now

#20

Well, it’s trading a chance on more damage for sure damage output increase.
At the moment it’s quite relevant to have Archer 2/3 for the crit rate boost, however, once we hit level 400 -500, crit rate becomes less and less useful as every single build will come closer and closer to 100% critchance.

This is because your natural critrate negates the crit defence of the enemies on the same level (e.g. you at level 330 have 165 natural crit, and a level 330 enemy has 165 crit defence, which means your natural naked&unbuffed crit chance is 0%), and the gear progression adds more and more critrate every levelcap.

E.g. with the current 315 rare leather set, you’ll get 60 critrate, with the new 350 unique leather set you’ll be able to reach 96 critrate (and possibly even more if you take the other unique items with random stats?).

This means that sooner or later you will reach a plateau(around 1000 critrate) where the 150 critrate boost of Swift Step does only increase the chance by 5%.
If spamming the low damage skills of Ranger can help you deal more damage than this 7,5% overall damage increase (5% critchance x 1,5 times the damage), you’ll be more likely to invest into Ranger rather than Archer C2.

The main problem that Ranger and e.g. Hunter have is that they are way too weak on their own and thus don’t really benefit your build as much. If they can’t compensate the critchance with damage, there’s no way to be viable until way later into the game due to gear progression&transcendence.

It fits well enough with Cannoneer C3, as Cannoneer is quite static and thus benefits a lot from Hunters disables (e.g. Coursing/Retrieve/Growling).
That’s about the only Class with good synergy, though, as Classes like Mergen have high mobility and way larger AoE capabilities(only talking about the actually affected skill area, not the AoE attack ratio) than Cannoneer.
Growling is bad in combination with high mobility, and the new pet A.I. makes it even harder to place the companion well enough to use Growling effeciently while on the move.

Who knows, maybe Bullet Marker can somehow benefit due to dual gun stance…

That’s not really true.

  1. Twin Arrow has more damage on average than a level 4 Barbed arrow, because it hits twice on every monster, regardless of armor type.
  2. Twin Arrow is way cheaper to attribute to 50%.
  3. Twin Arrow has a better growth per skilllevel, so getting the monster gem (level 6 Twin Arrow = 2x272%x5 overheats = 2720% damage, which is 388% DPS [2720%/7 seconds CD]) will make the skill even better on average than a level 10 Barbed Arrow.
  4. Twin Arrow has 30% less CD time than Barbed Arrow,so it’s more available as a filler skill with less investment.

While it would be nice if the skill had no CD at all, it would basically make every single Archer Class shittier in comparison with Archer C3.
That’s because Twin Arrow currently deals 816% damage fully attributed every time you use the skill. Why would you bother using any skill at all that can’t outdamage it because of animation delay,casting time?
Even with the 5 overheats, the skill is so strong, it practically deals up to 4080% every 8-9 seconds(depending on your Aspd) with basically no SP costs.

By removing the overheats, you’d basically make every other Archer skill that has less DPS than 1000% useless unless it has a high AoE attack ratio bonus and a large AoE.

1 Like