Tree of Savior Forum

Suggestion: Alternative to Current Transcendence

Following @Queue’s recommendation to create a new thread for this suggestion as an alternative/replacement of the current transcendence. Perhaps it is already too late by now, but anything also helps. No spectacular title to think off as of now, I’ll just name it:

"The Household Attributes, Transcendence " a.k.a THAT

New addition to the initial post includes implementation suggestions. For a TL:DR version please go to the end of the post.


[How THAT works]

Similarly like how we get blessed shards and gems, through saalus (or some other way in which IMC dictates in future). Players are able to buy/sell/trade blessed shards/gems just like now.

Blessed gems are used to upgrade the team household. Household upgrades can be divided into 3 categories:

  1. Core Stats Category

Upgrades are patk, matk, evasion, stamina, hp, sp etc. These upgrades go upwards to a max limit of +100% and are exchanged in denominations of 2% per 10 blessed gems. The upgrades are like the guild’s forges and academies, and will affect all characters in the game account/team. So players can farm shards, contribute to this core stat and every character will benefit from it.

  1. Skill Augmentation Category

This are the so called ‘quasi-equip’ category. Each character will be given a max of 5 slots to add skill augmentations. A skill augmentation can be like the following:

  • -2 secs cooldown to all skills
  • Changes all attacks to 2 hit attacks (become fake multi hit, +10% damage total but divide into 2 hits)
  • +100 fire element prop damage (and all other props)
  • Changes basic attack to element prop
  • % chance to resist negative debuffs
  • % chance to freeze on attacks
  • so on and forth.

Different skill augmentations requires different amount of blessed gems to purchase. For example a “-2 second cooldown to all skills” requires 20x blessed gems and a “-5 second cooldown” requires 100x blessed gems. Each skill augmentation only need to be purchased once and is available to all characters in the team. However, each character can only equip up to a maximum of 5 such skill augmentations. Players can change their augmented skills in the character select screen just how how they pair companions with the character. Players can come up with skill augmentation combos such as adding chance to change mob’s element property and having elemental damage that deals more to that property.

  1. Class Mastery Orbs Category

Apart from skill augmentations, players can purchase class mastery orbs. Previously in another post I highlighted about this idea, think it will be great to merge this with THAT. Here is the link to the previous idea (Thanks @Kupomancer for the name):

Basically as a limitation, each class can have a max 5 mastery orbs, with the limit of mastery orbs per character determined by the Rank of the character. A rank8 will have 8 mastery orb slots, a rank 10 will have 10. Each mastery orb can be purchased at a rate of 40 blessed gems per orb. For this purchase, the orb isn’t shared across all characters but is only for individual character. Once assigned to the character, the character can freely change where to put the mastery orb on which class their build has.


[Benefits and Cons]

Benefits of THAT

  • Solves the problem of All for One, all characters will benefit when they contribute blessed shards/gems

  • Gives more reasons to reroll, increasing longevity of the game

  • Gives IMC a platform to fix classes via Mastery Orbs, MO upgrades can help improve how low ranking classes work in end game

  • Allows more room for unique builds and creativity in builds with skill augmentations. There can be hundreds of augmentations implemented and with many combinations to choose from, even class builds that are the same will play differently. It also gives collectors another goal to strive for, to collect all the augmentations.

  • Limited core stat boost also limits power creep.

Cons of THAT

  • Shards become all the more important, which will affect market and economy.

  • Players who have few characters will have to find alternative means to get shards (IMC can increase the drop rate and availability of them though)

  • Saalus will become even more of a neccessity, but then it depends on how IMC implement where the shards will drop.

  • Content need to be rebalanced to suit the new transcendence

  • Equipment’s patk/matk will drop back to before, in line with the core stats but pale in comparsion with R8 skill damages, and this will need to be balanced

Compensation to players with existing/legacy transcended equipment

  • All existing transcended equipment will revert back to their basic forms

  • Players are compensated with the same amount of blessed shards as per how much they invest in their transcended equipment

  • All current blessed shards and gems (armor/weapon) will be converted to the new ‘THAT version’ with a 1:1 exchange.


[New addition! - Implementation Suggestions]

Visuals and Appeals of THAT

Ever seen how empty and unappealing the character selection screen is? Who in the world will purchase Banquet Hall and Pyromancer Room? THAT can be implemented in a way in which it boosts the sales of such team/family lodges.

Implement upgrades in the core stat category as furniture/item upgrades in the team lodges. For example, a purchase of a +2% atk core stat will provide a small fireplace to the team lodge. An addition of a +2% mdef will add a table etc. It presents players some form of visual upgrade to the dull team selection screen. This will also appeal to collectors too who would want to see how the fully upgraded team lodge will be like. Different lodges will have different furnitures/item visuals, and this helps in the sales of alternate lodges.

I would propose graphic add-ons in phases, as getting to last phase requires a substantial amount of time from the design/dev team.

  • Phase 1 - Static furniture/item visuals

  • Phase 2 - Static character interaction with furniture/item
    In this phase we can see our own characters interact with some furnitures, like some sitting on a table, some in front of fireplaces, some sleeping etc. Each time we come to the character selection screen the characters will be doing some other thing in the team lodge.

  • Phase 3 - Animated character interaction with furniture/item
    Characters will have some animations in team lodges. For example, some will be chatting near the fireplace, or a character is sitting down polishing his/her weapon until the player decides to bring him/her out to an adventure etc.
    Just like phase 2, everytime a player visits the lodge, the characters will be doing something else.

Blessed Cube Implementation

The current blessed cube can be only acquired at saalus, which in turn makes it into a required daily to run for everyone. I propose the addition of a lesser blessed cube, this cube, unlike blessed cube,

  • can only be rolled once (no rerolls)
  • only give 1x blessed shard

Lesser blessed cubes can obtained from DG/mission cubes at a low rate. They can also drop from monsters as players farm/grind, with rates slightly higher than golden anvil/spell rods/hammer of dismantlement.

This allows players to continue doing what they like/set to do instead of relying only on saalus runs, lowering the need for dailies.


Ending Note
Blessed gem prices of THAT are raw and tentative, they are there to just serve to put the idea across.

TL:DR

  • Change current transcendence into a more team friendly version, not restricting to a single character
  • Everyone in team benefits
  • Lowering dependence of saalus only to get blessed shards, less dailies
  • Suggestion to make blessed gems a currency to purchase core/augmentation/mastery orb upgrades which benefits the entire team
  • Visual implementation of upgrades to appeal to collectors
  • Change and introduce more ways/methods to acquire blessed shards
  • Propose compensation to current transcendence holders, reinburse and 1:1 exchange to new THAT shards/gems.

Link to the initial post:

12 Likes

Youre aware that wizards and clerics had the monopoly of the best skills right? Why would we reduce their CDs to make them spammable?

Not hating the idea, because any suggestions are welcome, given the majority like to change trans.

Way too convoluted and easily could break an already broken game more.

The reason Trans is hated on is because it is an insane increase in damage AND that it takes forever to farm and is boring to do.

Your fix doesn’t change anything, just messes up the entire game.

8 Likes

I really like the idea of Team wide upgrades, it functions very similarly to a Legacy system other MMO’s employ, except this one is not based on levelling and instead upgrades. Not only is the idea a different take on an already successful feature, but it would reward commitment without being too damaging to new players.

This seems to me though, as more of a long term slow grind goal, that should be separate from a Transcendence alternative, as its focus is much different. Transcendence is focused on gear, while THAT is focused on base stat and character modifier upgrades, so I would adapt it accordingly. For Core Stats I would max them at 5-10% of base. For Skill Augmentation I would scale it in a similar fashion, and maybe call it something different so it can focus on more aspects, for example it could include something Auto Attack Damage +20% etc. (Maybe just call it Augmentation?)

Gathering Blessed Shards could come from an increased amount of places like you mentioned, WB, Gimmicks, Cubes, Monster Loot, Missions Boss Drops, Guild Missions, and more places, with an increased amount from Saalus is my recommendation.

Class Mastery Orbs are probably the only part I don’t really like right now. Class balance shouldn’t come from any item, unless the Class is designed to scale off of items themselves more, (ie, through multi hits). The idea of having to sacrifice one class for another by using an Orb is really my problem with it. I wouldn’t mind a minor enhancement system where you could invest Blessed Shards to directly improve a Class or Skill, but I wouldn’t want to be limited.

The Lodge aesthetics are a cool idea, would help serve towards a major overhaul of Lodges, and this would be a good place to start. I wouldn’t make the Lodge improvements exclusive to the THAT system though, just have certain sets of furniture and items come from it.

Overall I really love the idea, it’s great filler content that would help give everyone at any Stage of the game something to improve in. It doesn’t hurt people who want to play on only one character, while still rewarding those who want to play on multiple. It also could function as a good system to compensate those for a Transcendence rework, even if it doesn’t fill the Transcendence role itself.

3 Likes

Still does not change the Tree of Farming lifestyle.
As if the game needs another reason to ‘earn’ more currency…

Nothing is gonna stop people from buying the shards out with RMT.

Still, it’s an alternative.

2 Likes

@jynxie08

Yeah. It will be hard to balance as more augmentations are implemented. One way is to introduce ‘augmentation negatives’ along with the buffs as as not to tip the balance too much.

For example: Augmentation ‘speedcasting’

  • all skills cooldown reduced by 10%
  • -10% damage to all skills
  • Chance to inflict debuffs reduced by 10%

This gives player choices whether they want to stick with vanilla (no augmentation) with 100% damage and 100% cooldown timings, or augment it with a cooldown reduction but have reduced damage output. The reverse can also happen, augmentation to increase damage but at a higher cost of cooldown and SP

  • +10% damage to all skills
  • all skills SP cost increased by 20%
  • increase cooldowns of all skills by 10%

With this kind of balancing, augmentation isn’t mandatory but is optional, as players can opt for vanilla or augmented skills but still achieve almost similar output, but with different playstyles.

@celgaming

Yes I do realise that this is a complicated fix for transcendence. It kind of overthrows the KISS concept in which I’m all so used to in brainstorming sessions. Transcendance is definitely bad for the game currently, and we all agree that it should be changed.

What is perhaps hard for IMC now is that they have to find a method to change transcendence without discounting the efforts of players who invested heavily into transcendence. There are players who run saalus 20-30times daily for months just to transcend their gear (not those who RMT), and any form of fix that changes/trivalise their efforts will make them lose confidence in the game and company.

Hence the complicated ‘transcendence alternative’ for the supposedly “bandaid”.

Would really appreciate if you can break down what is bad about the suggestion, and see where we can improve on.

@Queue

Thanks for the feedback. I do realise that class mastery orbs will tip balancing more. It does need some other balances though, like balancing all classes in a flat hierarchy structure first then apply the mastery to improve efficiency of the class. In short all classes balanced to be viable on their own, then mastery comes in to help amp up parts of a build in which the player wishes to be known for.

@TeamChespin

Well, grinding based games are known for their farming nature. Hopefully if this is done well, it will be an optional feature rather than a mandatory one.

Forgot to put this in,

Everyone please feel free to discuss and comment on the suggestion. If you dislike or hate on an aspect, it will be really great to post your views and how it can be changed for the better.

There is only so much an individual can think of for ideas, and often or not ideas thought of by individuals are littered with bias and personal preferences (myself included). Hence, brainstorming sessions are always done in groups.

So, no worries just feel free to tear this thing apart, there is a reason why this is in general discussions and not in suggestions subforum :3

2 Likes

If implemented correctly the focus wouldn’t be on dailies and instead on farming and accumulation through all content.

3 Likes

Only one day to go and we will know.

SOON.

2 Likes

Seems to miss the mark as trans is a means of fixing relative irrelevancy in weapons. The global upgrade system feels like a remix of the collections system.

Trans problem is impractical time gating trivialized by trade for a small pop with a large qualitative and quantitative difference. Those issues can be fixed by simply implementing realistic progression.

Regular gems for instance have gotten easier to level as the game ages and they add more gem exp to the game.
Level 10 gems are still unrealistic for example but will not always be.
Unlike gems, Trans is far more statistically relevant which makes it a bigger deal for players to have particularly with harder content.

Just makes more sense to ‘fix’ or completely eliminate the current system. Players have enough crap on their plate here.

2 Likes

Tbh I’m already quite tired of typing here so I’ve been lurking lately, but I can’t resist to have a bite at @Nekorin’s. Pardon the intrusion~

I agree with @Queue for the Mastery System to not depend on Blessed Shards. When I mused about Mastery Orb, I pictured it as “Class Customization” feature that allows us to pick a small stretch of classes from our 8 ranks to stand out. The Mastery Orb serves as a mean to make each player a unique Cleric and Priest instead of just “an Inquisitor that can cast Bless and Resurrection”.

My proposal is for Mastery Orb to be made as an item gained through master quests. Each character can only take as many master quest as they have ranks. The quests will appear as “[class] master quest” and will reward “[class] mastery orb”. Therefore, each player can choose to either spread out their master orbs or pile everything on 1 or 2 (max 5 orbs per class). Do note that this is “Class Customization” and “Equipment Customization” like trans and anvil still need other kinds of rework while keeping mind that we DO NEED to change equipment every once in a while.

1 Like

@Delcas

Yeah, now you bring it up, it does revert back to the initial problem of transcendence being made to fix the irrelevancy of weapons and armors. I do think that current trans is making things worse for equipment and weapons though instead of making low/mid level weapons relevant in end game, don’t really understand where are they coming from.

If a low level equipment (low stars) with high transcendence can use for end game, the same amount of transcendence when place on an end game equipment yields far better results since high stars = higher base stat improvement.

In the end, low level equipment is still as is and is made even worse since transcendence is % based off equipment’s stats. Yep and time taken to transcend an equipment now is atrocious.

Yeah the proposed fix isn’t really to fix what transcendence is set out to to. Item relevancy can only be fixed with tagging on item upgrades, having more itemisation to begin with and also normalising high class skill damages.

Item upgrading meaning items like Grand Cross -> Didel Grand Cross -> Marvel Grand Cross.

In the ideal setup, each class should have a unique equipment which can be upgraded upwards so they can be relevant through the entire ToS levelling experience. We do need more itemisation now, it is certainly lacking.

The angle in which my suggestion comes from is on how to “get rid” of the current transcendence without creating a big negative impact to players who invested time and effort in it. It has to be a transition in which players don’t feel “What the heck am I doing for the past few months, all my efforts to be better are for naught with this change”.

Hence the approach is to have something which satisfies the following:

  • Offer compensation to existing players
  • Players feel that their existing/past efforts are still rewarded with compensation and not wasted
  • Having the new implementation optional and not a necessity
  • To inject more things to do/collect in end game that is available to all characters in team

With the problems of current transcendence undone, it then will be possible to move on to fix other problems such as itemisation.


As for gems wise, from the looks of it we shouldn’t really worry much about the time spent to make a lv7+ gem (unless they change). Currently for us, lv1 gems drop from cave maps (those maps where the player is kicked out of the map when they die) for levels 1-100, 100+ maps get lv2 gems, 200+ maps get lv3 gems.

Sooner or later at high lv300+ maps we will see lv4 gem drops. By the time we reach R10 lv8 gems might become the norm to socket. Level 10 might not be as unrealistic as now in future.


@Kupomancer

Welcome to the thread XD. I agree with you and @Queue on the Mastery Orb, it shouldn’t be dependent on blessed shards at all. As I reread what I suggested, it seems like it is kind of a hard sell lol. I’ll edit it off later but for now just keep it for others to see what we are discussing about.

The master quests is a neat idea. It will be really great if the master quests are made differently so every player can only take master quests from their own class masters. Adds more replayability to the game too if each master quest can talk more about the lore and history of the class.

1 Like

“Mastering” a class seems like it would come after R10, to allow players to continue advancing their classes without actually levelling them.

Knowing the level in this game continues as far as 600? Well if they continue the transcendance then a new gear appear all the hard work will be gone after transcending your current equips.

On one point @Nekorin these cases should be handled carefully if a property of a class deminish on a certain rank.

The most prompt suggestions of the devs are reworking gears and class rebalance which are still vague up to this day. We assume most of their time reworking will be on the stats and class but, I can’t sense their plans on transcendance.

We kind of have an idea as it will discuss Transcendence efficiency and cost change. To guess I think it will be a general nerf to make it more accessible and lessen the gap in power. But then again, that’s speculation and the context will be changing drastically.

Tomorrow will mean so much. It’s the primary reason I personally have been holding off on suggestions, something like this has been coming for a while and I was waiting it out as to not propose potentially soon to be obsolete ideas. I hope others will as encouraged as I am.

4 Likes

As far as I am able to observe, the current problem with equipments are these:

  1. Low level common gears are so useless that NPC gears outperform them: UNUSABLE
  2. Some low level unique rare gears have a useful effect and outperforms higher level gears: OVERUSED
  3. Mid level gears have undesired effect and got outperformed by upgraded-socketed lower level weapons: UNUSABLE
  4. High level transcended gears are absolute end-game: OVERUSED

From what I experienced, gear progression has been a leap from an overused weapon to other overused weapon, completely ignoring the unusable weapons in between (level wise anyway) with anvils and gems. Cmiiw though because my experience is limited to Five Hammer leap to Catacombs which is imo too far of a leap.

Mending this would require them removing A LOT of those unusable weapons and improving a few of them, or at the very freaking least make more of them relevant. Gear progression should be more like a milestone with players switching gears every so often (but don’t make it NPC reliant pls), instead of Five Hammer to lvl 200++. Kinda like classic Ragnarok where you should hunt for such and such Jacket at this level and this weapon at this level (though I hate their upgrading system now ugh screw gear breaking).

Agreed. Something to add, I do think IMC realises this too, which in the end influenced their decision to leave out all other tiers of weapons besides only the necessary for R8, since everyone only goes for BiS. So we only have

  • 1 only purple weapon choice for 315
  • 2 only orange weapon choices for 315-330 (one of them solmiki)
  • 0 other choices (no whites, no blues)

Perhaps it is their idea of saying, please focus on the builds and classes rather than the gear. It is the unique selling point of the game.

But then in a grinding game, gears should stand out more since the main goal for players to play a grinding MMO is to grind and farm for those gears.

Making them interesting at the very least will push players to play more. Gears can compliment a build making it stronger or radically change the same build making it play in a different way. This will help shift the focus towards the builds and classes too, like with what gear combination then this build will be good etc.

Edit:

This reminds me of the times in D3 where the devs make huge changes to almost their entire gear collection. There was a time where everyone just flock to the best “yellow” stat gear (rare) because all the rest of the other uniques were lackluster and not worth the time. A change in gear designs made the game a lot better as every unique has a build changing ability. It diversify the game and not make everyone just go after 1 BiS item.

(Although in D3 meta still rules with BiS sets, but it is still good job done to a grind game.)

In last KR meeting
They said it may be change all of them. Stat ,Equipment ,skill (occur to meta)

But, Doesn’t seem KIM want to change END-Game content much. So we have to fixed upper cap of equipment to Orange&Purple 315(doesn’t count solmiki set)

So if they add somethings like Superior “Weapon name” and lets something higher like Circle Rod (R7 reference) it going to be great too , but lacking of flexibility to choose equipment. (because transcend and everyone want maximum damage than +10% damage to boss ,something like that)

Like Kupomancer said something like Venier(Low Level unique) kill all above fencer weapon. If they add options to Mid Level gear but it too much effect to that class.(Diddle Shooter) they properly gonna kill that class in End-Game content, Like Fencer or Qs. Because if those class got another none unique options weapon with High-End damage it still not enough compare to old one.

At the End, making set for that class is not for choice and making white one or rare(blue) isn’t too. people going to make END-GAME equip and those equip will be UNUSED and we can’t change END-GAME equipment due to KIM desire.

I don’t think the goal is to make low level weapons relevant on their end. They haven’t even made new monster gems. Rank 9 likely would’ve been out by now if they didn’t have to fix so much crap that upsets users. The gear isn’t made to last. This is the same company that said they wanted low lvl classes to fall off. The gear isn’t any different.

This game had many +1 increases to damage.

Str/int, leveling. Anvil upgrades are 2+star.
Many weapons are some small base + ilvl.

Trans focus is just making weapons have higher gains per ilvl than just 1, 1.3,1.4, etc.

They wanted their equipment system itself to be more powerful than just +1 more damage per item level.
Instead of directly buffing all weapons we get this change requiring player effort, trans, as a huge gold and timesink. It kind of needed some kind of boon given how utterly useless AAs have become in general.

Hell increasing the gem drop rate in the cubes would have a significant effect as well.

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