Name me a game that it’s perfect balanced, every game I know has currently meta build and hipster cool kids builds
Yeah, but we could have something that turn Cryomancers into a “DPS” class. Maybe giving up CC for some frostbite damage, I don’t know. And I don’t mean to make it viable for 280+ content, but just so it’d have some damage until 200+
What makes Pyro ‘broken’ is how Joint Penalty works with fireballs.
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The beauty of Tree of Savior lies in the fact that it’s not another “hurr durr more DPS more good kek” brain dead MMO. As such, transforming Cryo, or Thaum, or Linker, or Alchemist, or anything for that matter into DPS class (when they originally are not) would not help the balance in any way. Instead, why don’t you look at it the other way?
Cryo might kill really slowly, but they are originally a soft CC with their freezing specialty. What we should do is amplify its specialty and make more synergy with other classes on the Wizard tree. Maybe they can have a new attribute where frozen enemies take continuous/more damage? Make frozen enemies movable? Make freezing status contagious? I personally think it would be better this way to make Cryo more viable without being DPS.
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Yeah, I get what you’re saying. I just like this concept of Ice Wizard so much that I wish that there was some way to kill stuff with ice. Maybe a new R9 that has synergy with Cryo skills
Agny is too strong imo, I do have pyro-linkers (note the s) in my characters and I find them overwhelmingly strong with agny.
Do have to agree with everything @Sayurichan said. Agny seems like a by-product of what the current system which is focused heavily on transcendance and high rank class damage.
There are many factors that led to the decisions made by IMC, which in turn become what we have now. From what I see, it kind of boils down to the way progression is handled in a grind based MMO.
Most players are trained or rather like to see progression in a simpler manner, higher numbers dealt to their adversaries and lower numbers dealt to them when they get hit. Which is why we see many MMOs have this system where the numbers get higher and higher as players progress through the game.
There is nothing wrong with this model, as it is a rather good way to define progress. But, that is usually when the game has classes which is pretty much defined and constrained right at the beginning of the game. Classes which are defined like being a swordsman->crusader in RO makes this kind of damage progression easy to gauge and balance between skills amongst other classes.
ToS is a different beast altogether, with characters picking their favorite progression “jobs”, to mix and match a build with different types of classes. And since classes are segregated with ranks which are only attainable with player progression, naturally the higher level classes will have skills and damage that have to suit the character level in which they are attained.
This creates the damage gaps between low level classes and high level classes, with players who take support classes like chronomancer or alchemist being left with mediocre damage as their high rank choices are used for support. As we can see, IMC tried to balance low rank and high rank attack classes by introducing items such as Agny Necklace so that Pyromancers can still be viable end game. This is not a foolproof idea however, as it completely destroys the early/mid game where Pyros will outdamage every single other attack class once they have the item. Just advocating this means in future we will have a lot more of these “band-aid” items to help balance the ranks. This will just widen the divide, making all lower rank useless. In the end the only thing that matters is what we take for last 2-3 class.
Personally I don’t think this is what everyone, including IMC wants.
How do we, or rather how do IMC solve this problem, especially when we are already knee deep into this “Transcendence”, huge damage hole? I have a suggestion, although it is rather raw, but I think it might just be what we need.
Suggestion: Introduce another shiftable attribute called 'Efficiency/Emphasis Orbs
What does this Efficiency/Emphasis Orbs (EO) do? As a player gains in class rank, he or she also gain 1 EO. So at Rank8 the player will have 8 EOs, Rank10 10EOs and so forth. Balance all classes across all ranks to do roughly around the same damage dealt (dps terms), which should be alot easier since all hierarchy is gone in terms of dps balancing. Then the player can freely distribute EOs across his/her classes as deem fit. Each EO allocated to the class will increase the damage and efficiency of the class itself. With 5+EOs distributed to a single class will make the class able to dish out damage good enough to clear the end game content. The other classes with no EO will be of base efficiency.
For example a build with
Wizard1 > Pyro 3 (5EO) > Cryo 3 (3EO) > Elementalist 2
This wizard will have really good fire damage skills able to deal with R8 content, with good support Cryo3 damage while emphasising on the circle 2 attributes of elementalists. A true frostfire mage.
The player can then switch the EOs (via a town NPC to prevent abuse) to something like
Wizard1 > Pryo 3 > Cryo 3 (8EO) > Elementalist 2
Then this wizard will be an awesome frost mage that kills with snowrolling in R8 content while having many supportive skills from pyro and elementalists to help up the damage a little.
The EO addition helps players find what they like best. They can play as a Corsair with 8EOs without feeling limited by the upper damage limits of the class rank itself (since corsair damage is R5-7), and still feel awesome while clearing rank 8 content. Players who choose to capitalise on early damage classes like Archer C3 > QS C3 > Ranger C2 wun feel that they make the wrong choice. Support classes with EO attached to it gain more efficiency in their skills, like Thaumaturge gain X * EO more damage buffs on Swell left/right/brain. This makes all classes viable and suited for endgame as their baseline is already set together and their max damage is determined by the number of EOs attached to them.
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Well the purpose of Agny Necklace was to make Pyro viable.
What have they done with it?
- Ppl without proper gear still cant deal dmg on high lvl monsters cuz they cant pierce the MDef of those
- Ppl with good gear are uncontested DPS wise cuz the multiplier gets added at the end resulting in incredible high numbers.
What would be the solution?
Just change the way Agny works. Make the multiplier work on the skill base DMG. Only Skill Dmg not the Dmg added by weapons.
This way lower geared persons can take full advantage of it and can finaly pierce the MDef.
Also higher geared persons will still deal more dmg just not that crazy numbers.
Still i believe the way the dmg is calculated is complete bullshit in this game.
U only throw multipliers on mutlipliers and the dmg skyrockets.
1 little example. (also a little hint on this video posted in one of the earlier posts here - this wasn´t cuz of Agny but of Melees litaraly annihilating this boss - Fencer + Dragoon)
Take an Fencer, throw in an Enchanter and a Miko Taoist.
Now use Enchant Lightning and Stormcalling and start Miko Dance
Well u only need Sept Etoile as Fencer now.
U deal 16 hits of 199999 Dmg (8 from Sept 8 from Kagura), also spamming Attaque Composee yields to another 4 hits of 199999 Dmg.
Even autohitting brings u up to 150k+
This is all cuz of multipliers which are broken in a combination.
IF there would be no dmg cap…i can even imagine to hit like 4-5 millions easily when full buffed.
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i love Nekorin <3
<3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3
Agree with what @Nekorin mentioned in the post, especially regarding the damage gaps between low level classes and high level classes. And really supportive of the “EO” concept. I feel IMC is consciously shared the same opinion, however the approach to resolve the problem is a bit questionable. It is apparent that lower rank dps classes have been “buffed” to make them relevant for end game content. For example, the Pyro+Agny that we have been talking about, and also Krivis Zaibas+StormCalling. While the later is more acceptable due to the nature of the combo which require more coordination and timing, Agny is practically a blatant buff to all pyro skills, which as mentioned by @Sera1003, should have just been applied directly to the skills themselves. Don’t get me wrong, I am really supportive of pyro to get the buffs even though I don’t have a pyro character, since the class offers interesting gameplay and definitely need to be made viable. I just dont really agree on how IMC implemented that buff. Such “shortcut”/“band-aid” easily caused a lot of “jealousy” amongst some of the other class-fanatics. Thau and Sadhu lovers will silently hating the game, and in the end will just stop playing.
While it is relevant to agny’s topic, I do believe Nekorin’s suggestion worth a thread of its own. Really supportive of the “EO” concept which intended to make lower rank classes relevant and a more interesting options for a build.
please don’t exclude monks from sadhus lol ; even their attempts to try to buff monk several times still result in a useless class lol
Agny needs a rework. It has several problems which should be solved independently.
- The boost too high for r8. What makes it worse is that it’s available at lv120.
To solve it gracefully IMC needs to bring back the amulets. They should occupy gem sockets (for any item rather than shields only). Each amulet should grant portion of agny’s effect (1/8 I would say). Amulets should be untradable and obtainable through questing (~6 quests till r8, extra can be added as we get more content and higher level cap). Amulets should be kept when removed from socket (be undestructable).
Later you can introduce similar amulets for different elements.
Pros
- Damage increases gradually
- You sacrifice gem socket for each upgrade which means you choose between damage increase and higher defence/hp. Instead of creating ultimate supportive tanky dd based on pyro you either make supportive glasscannon or tanky support (and well if other classes ever get some damage you can make tanky dd with that)
Cons
- Those amulets will benefit other classes less. Well not a problem for PDs because they have healing factor. Can be easily fixed by adjusting multipliers to make amulets reasonable for all classes who have fire element skills.
- The formula is retarded
Not sure if anyone who designed this put any thought in it at all. It is clear it should be fixed. For example, what is the reason for agny’s bonuses applying addictively to element alignment? When you hit fire mobs with 3.8xMatk it should be halved but instead we are getting (3.8-0.5)xMatk.
Well everything above is my opinion and obviously nobody’s interested in it (imc included)
Rock Paper Scissors is perfectly balanced. 
…
Oh, you mean a MMORPG/RPG… well, usually no game with such complexity is perfectly balanced, however you have to admit that amount of usefulness of all different classes and skills in TOS could certainly be better balanced than it is right now.
Maybe Agny is a bit strong, but personally I like it.
What I like most about Tree of Savior is forming your own “identity” and Agny is a step in the right direction.
Prior to agny, if you wanted to be a fire wizard, it wasn’t possible. R8 and R7 skills were too strong and overshadowed your previous circles.
Similarly, if you wanted to be a lightning caster, prior to taoist, it just wasn’t possible.
Agny I feel is a step of IMC of making all classes viable.
The next step is buffing the rest of the classes to the same power-level so you can pick and choose which class you really like.
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As a cata-goon main, I felt like pyro was extremely OP before I reached rank 8, but I think it is kind of balanced with other rank 8 bullshit…
The OP-ness of pyro comes from combinations of multipliers, for example how joint penalty works with fireballs. Fix that, and agny won’t be OP.
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actually agny was very well-timed and you’ll see why.
.>pyro was pitiful
.>releases rank reset
.>agny easily obtainable and too stronk
.>most people resets to pyro c2/c3 in their builds
.>imc sells pyro c3 costume
.> loadsamoney
jokes aside, you guys knows there are rumors of element necklaces out there right? Agny is just the peak of the iceberg. I know a Druid c3 who deals tons of damage per tick on zaibas and can outdamage any krivis c3/taoist. Imagine when they release the lightning necklace.
They could nerf agni some more and it would still be fine.
Just create an attribute to prevent other players from knocking away fireball. Only, you know, every other fellow pyro I’ve spoken to since time immemorial has agreed with this…
[details=Summary]"Our players exaggerate too much. You know we only made that class to play soccer with right? Alright fine. Here, have a gimmick equipment with inflated multiplicative bonuses. throws necklace
Alright fellas, back to work on rank 9 ultra-transcendence."[/details]
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In the meanwhile the final fantasy saga did fine with “LOW” damage cap until you do the “extra” quests or boss for useless stats grinding.
I’m wizard 1 pyromancer 3 linker 1 level 145 with 92 attributes fireball + good items (2000 magic attack max) and 3 chapparitons, I was very surprised to see fireball reaching 23 000.
I know there are some wizards dealing 100 000+ with fireball iteration but I think they will add more fire resistant, immune, or healing fire monsters.
And as it was datamined they will add supposedly lighting agny and ice agny.
Can you imagine krivis3 druid 3 + taoist 1 + lighting agny plus damage cap 300 000 or 400 000x every zaibas attack count lol?
Not voting, this poll is pointless.
Do you really think that IMC will care about the result? You still believe in Santa, or maybe you just dont realize that such a poll will get you IMC’ed?
Just like the ausrine whinethreads, the channelcrasher threads, the GVG cheaterthreads, the xyz threads… IMC will not care.
And stop embarrassing yourselves!
huehuehue
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I mean…they could buff everything else instead of nerfing something intended to buff what was considered weak…right?
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