Tree of Savior Forum

Skills vs auto attack

Gameplay Feedback General Feedback
#1

Want to start off saying i love the game but a lot of people feel that the reliance on auto attack it too heavy. For one I absolutely enjoy auto attack builds but with that being said when i got into this beta i wanted to try something different. I wanted to try a skill spam build. To my disappointment there seemed to be no suck thing. You could work out a skill rotation but it only came into play every 40 to 60 seconds. I also felt that buffs had a really short duration. This really caters to auto attacks as you spend all of your sp maintaining buffs and if you piled atk skills on top you blew through sp like no body’s business!

So after some thinking i have an idea of how to make skill spam builds a thing without negating auto attack builds. Make gems that reduce skill cool downs. This way you can either use gems that pump stats for auto attack builds or use gems that reduces cool downs for skills. Perhaps maybe some passive skills as well to reduce cool downs but you also might need to add more passives to make auto attacking attractive.

As of now i feel that skills feel a bit under powered considering the long cool downs. The burst damage from a skill rotation looks nice at first but when you factor in the cool downs and the massive amounts of sp spent it just doesn’t feel worth it. For efficiency sake auto attacks just win hands down.

1 Like
#2

Try to play archer or rodelero, and remember to buy alchemist SP potion. You can spam plenty of skills

1 Like
#3

A Skill based reliance helps emphasize Class elections.

An Auto-attack based reliance emphasizes Item/gearing choices.

If I recall from the survey… one of the biggest draws to the game that you have all of these classes, and all of these ranks, to help define the character you create and let it best suite your play style. Having AA heavily impact gameplay, for all classes, is a little counter productive as it strays the further and further away from the game’s biggest selling point. For 5 ranks my Wiz was support this CBT and, after buffing/debuffing, I can say with complete honesty that I was about 90% AA. Not quite what I had in mind.

So… I agree. I feel that somehow skills are to become more prevalent. I do not want to wait until level 600 just so I can have a solid skill rotation that isn’t completely blown in one standard pull; even at 200 I should have more than enough to choose from.

6 Likes
#4

For auto-attack to be effective, it requires “proc”. Outside of Priest buffs, it is missing from other classes. And even Priest buffs, they do not scale. They need more ways to proc with auto attack.

Also, skill has base bonus, which auto-attack does not.
Sadhu attacks which looks like auto attack does a lot of damage, because it includes a skill base damage. That would be half the damage output people would look at.

#5

With Swordman I found out that a skill-relying build was way better for farming normal mobs and had an easier time than with an autoattack build, but the damage output of an autoattack oriented build was bigger against bosses with a high HP pool, because of cooldowns.

For wizards, the option could be to take more classes instead of specializing in one if you want to spam skills, since having a constant rotation with a C3 class would make the damage output too big compared to other classes.

IMO The logical options are to either spam low damage output skills or focus on high damage output skills with long cooldowns/long cast times. Maybe a possible answer could be to be able to chose the level of the skill you want to use, in cases that lower level = lower cooldown/sp cost (not considering skills with overheat)

Btw, I remember reading somewhere that against World Bosses, the greatest damage came from magic classes rather than physical attacks, even with their huge cooldowns (correct me if I’m wrong)

#6

I mainly tried the swordie class, wizard and monk. I liked the skills i picked up from the swordie class. If i remember my skill rotation was cleave, helm chopper and double slash. I was able to do some cool burst damage and i liked the way the rotation felt. Realistically though i could take out 2 packs of mobs if i split the rotation in half then i had to wait forever for the cool downs. My sp was also spend after about 3 full rotations and maintaining buffs. Later on it also seemed that it took a lot longer to auto attack things to death so i was just waiting around until my my skills came off of cool down. It may be because i used a sword for everything. In hindsight i should have gotten a mace for plate enemies. In conclusion though it was far from being a skill spam build because of the long cool downs.

I felt the same when i went down the wiz tree. I went wiz-pyro-linker. There was a lot of times where i had to auto attack. It got a little better when i got linker. I got into a habit of if there where 5-6 enemies i would use hangman and a fireball to kill the mobs. If the enemies were more i would just drop a Flame Ground and run them through it. Overall though i didn’t feel like i could achieve a skill spam with this class.

The monk is the only class i played that could be considered a skill spam. It takes awhile to get to that point. First you just use buffs and whap stuff to death. When you finally get monk you get the double punch skill! Yes it was exciting to have a skill that didn’t have a cooldown!..then you realizes that double punch it the only skill you ever use after reaching monk >.< Was a bit depressing. Spam double punch, spam stam pots, rinse repeat.

1 Like
#7

Well here’s the thing. If you go heavily in skill-combo-rotational combat system…you goto post-wow-esque and all the bad that comes to it.

Otherwise known as button spamming. Then you’ll be doing stupid things like balancing GCDs, optional rotations, and DPS meters elitism, etc, etc.

Basically everything people find stale and all that is hateful in the year 2015. I for one am not going going into another game that is simple a repeat of 1234123467291 on a training dummy for 2hrs deal.

Basically skills = basic attacks = crap damage multipliers = crap battle system

On the issue of AA itself, there does seem to be some extensive downtimes at time, but it’s mostly tactical, rather then optimal.

We (I hope) actually think about SP/DPS ratios when we attack, especially boss fights, and optimal windows openings, which is much much more deep then simply AA.

There are a lot of “filler” skills and even no CD skills (thrust for instance is no CD you get at beginning of the game) but we totally don’t consider them most of the time due to sp-upkeep or lack of skill level/attributes.

And that’s both the problem and the beauty of it. That’s probably true build/class/playstyle diversity.

I don’t immediately go for the no-cd or low CD skill, because they either aren’t worth it, incompatible with my build, or just can’t afford the sp costs. That’s how things should be.

It’s prime example is Energy bolt… it’s always there for a wizard…but heck if anyone uses it except for a specific purpose (knock back) ever! We even leveled it up, being an int based class should have tons of SP…but…there’s a conscious decision to not touch it.

Where a SPR based cleric build is more or less spamming anything on CD because sp isn’t the issue…

#8

Been playing Archer 3, Sapper 3 during this CBT.
I didn’t use auto-attack almost at all. There were a few reasons behind this: the first (and the most frustrating) was the fact that SP didn’t regen while AAing, and the other one is the fact that AA can’t be compared in terms of damage to the other skills.
And only after finishing the survey I actually learned that this CBT had a … FOCUS… on normal attacks. Neither me, nor two of my friends needed or wanted to use normal attacks at 95% of time.

2 Likes
#9

It’s kind of pain leveling an INT based cleric/krivis because you’re so heavily reliant on your skills until you reach Sadhu. I’ve got very little base attack, and I’m relying mostly on my pet to do damage while I run around in circles like a chicken with its head cut off or just standing in my safety zone while I’m waiting for my skills to cool down.

The CDs are not unbearable, but they are uncomfortable. Cutting down the CDs by just 20% would be helpful.

1 Like
#10

Yes, certain classes/builds are focused on skills more than auto attack. For archer I think auto attack is used only for luring.

Swordman and cleric tree however have more focus on auto attack.

#11

Luring? Oblique shot is used for that >_>

Yeah, ONLY because they don’t have any other skills to attack =)

1 Like
#12

Maybe there can be buff to increase attack speed, but increase SP consumption.
Or a buff that would increase auto attack speed but continually reduce SP (based on STR/INT), and once this buff expired, it will get another buff to quickly regenerate SP.

That should help increase auto attack damage, while not OP with combining skills at the same time.

1 Like
#13

Casting level 1 energy bolt is slower than using an auto attack, and does less damage. That’s why it gets forgotten fairly quickly.

If you level it up to 7 it can be instantly cast, and becomes a short term auto attack replacement. I kinda wish it didn’t have a cooldown at all, since that would be useful for a higher spr wizard build.

Heck, I always found it odd that wizards didn’t have the basic melee auto attack and have a skill like energy bolt to be the replacement.

1 Like
#14

What’s the difference between spamming a no cooldown skill with no SP shortage and autoattacking? Wouldn’t a “skill spam build” be achieved by simply renaming autoattack to “annihilate” or something, making you press the button every single time instead of just for the first attack, and making you pay a skill point for it?

That aside, the gem idea is good since it adds variety to gems and lets you customize equipment for different types of builds.

That’s your fault for avoiding all the attack skills and taking all support skills. The game is emphasizing class selections if picking a no offense build means you have no offense. That makes choices important.

I stopped using energy bolt at higher levels, so I didn’t have a need for more weak skills that just take up a lot of time.

It would be odd if a wizard ran in to melee after running out of SP.

1 Like
#15

It would be odd if you didn’t have the option.
Like now. Where wizards have physical attack buffs and defensive buffs that you never really need to use.

1 Like
#16

They should reduce cooldowns, but also increase SP costs and buff weapon attacks. That way, both skills and weapon attacks are important and useful.

#17

The only reason you “didn’t have the option” is your melee attack is extremely weak. That makes sense since you’re a wizard. Which buffs specifically are you referring to? Even Thaumaturge’s swell arms say they increase magic attack.

#18

Why would you think a wizard’s melee attack is weak? It runs on exactly the same things as a warrior or cleric’s does.

Reflect shield, sub zero shield, swell arms, Featherfoot’s lifedraining, Chrono’s attack speed, enchant fire, Lethargy’s damage buff on strike damage, frozen monster’s damage buff on strike attacks, Ice wall.

wiz-cryo-cryo-thaum-thaum-chrono-featherfoot Is a build that would work great with a mace, but which isn’t viable right now because you can’t use maces.

1 Like
#19

If the melee attacks are not weak and they’re just like a swordsman’s, how are they not an option?

As for maces, here’s a screenshot of a mace and a sword in my inventory. They’re not red like unequippable items are.

screenshot_20151028_00005.jpg1920Ă—1200 690 KB

Reflect shield was used for preventing cast interruption before interrupts got bugged. It was very useful for getting long casts off and worked against ranged attacks. Sub zero shield just got a redesign. Swell arms lists magic attack in the description. Enchant fire works on the magic autoattack. Lethargy’s damage buff works on earthquake. The frozen monster damage buff is for lightning attacks.

Chrono’s Quicken does have an attribute for critical hits, which is for physical attacks, so at least you got one right.

Ice wall? You “never really need to use” ice wall? It’s one of our best abilities. Do you not have any idea how ice wall works? Is this trolling?

1 Like
#20

Yes, swords, maces and etc all are usable by mages. but mages can’t actually use their physical damage in any way. If you equip one, you make the same magic attack as with a staff/rod, but now the weapon doesn’t have any magic attack on it.
That is dumb, why are they an option when they are worse than any staff or rod? Give them a melee attack.

Look at your first paragraph, and note how they all of those skills ALSO buff physical attack. They are useful for normal mages, they are useful for melee mages. When I said there are buffs a wizard never needs to use, I meant stuff like Sub-zero shield and Quicken, which provide basically zero benefit to a normal mage.

-Subzero shield is made for taking hits. A player in melee range will care more about taking hits than a player at magic range.

-Lethargy’s damage attribute does not work on earthquake. Earthquake deals earth-magic damage. The 2x earthquake damage on lethargic targets is always applied, attribute or not. Heck, the attribute is glitched right now, and only gives 20%.

-Bonus lighting damage on frozen targets is an attribute, not purely from being frozen. Frozen targets just take extra strike damage. Current mages cannot take advantage of that, but one with a theoretical strike damage melee attack could. (Given Electrocute’s casting time, the attribute is pretty pointless too!)

-Quicken gives attack speed and crit chance. It may be a bug, but there are reports that the current mage auto attack does not gain attack speed. Dagger swipes do.

-Ice wall has synergy with auto attacks. You smack it and it fires ice shards out. Never use otherwise? No, but when you do use it you probably want to walk up and smack it with your staff or use Psychic pressure. Given that cryomancers have a bonus when using rod+shields, and there is no way for a mage to have an auto-attack if they are using a shield…

Have a video of someone doing a basic form of what I’m talking about by using a dagger.

Similar to how most melee classes use an Arde dagger, he would probably be seeing better results if he used a buffstick in his main hand, such as the Toy hammer.

1 Like