Tree of Savior Forum

Skill/Circle Reset VS Free Team Storage, Account bound Items and increased # of Character slots

First of all, I haven’t played the game yet. This post is made as an answer to the various skill reset threads I’ve seen popping up recently, since I’ve been interested enough in the game to take a look at the forums.

If you can’t stand the fact that most of the following will be almost pure assumptions (based on my previous knowledge gathered from playing many mmorpgs and seeing many games come and go), leave and let it die a peaceful death. (scroll down for the TL;DR)

In the world of (free) mmorpgs, what I usually see being sold in cash shops revolves around enhanced functionalities (additional stash space, marketplace reductions/bonuses, character slots, etc) Game bonuses (Extra gold, xp, drops etc), Do-overs (character looks reset tokens, skill reset, stat reset, faction changes), Guild or clan functionalities, and various cosmetic microtransactions (also include mounts).

The thing I’ve learned throughout the years playing various games, ranging from FPS to RPGs to MMOs(and others) is that even if you have the best game in the world, it’s only as good as it’s developers’ decisions. Shitty decisions can very easily and very swiftly ruin an otherwise profitable game, simply because somebody, somewhere, thought it wasn’t making money fast enough.

I’ve seen way too many games’ bright futures being ruined by poor business decisions and it annoys the hell out of me every single time. They never learn, and they refuse to acknowledge that it’s their fault.

What I’ve also learned is that if you make the player base happy (to not be mistaken for complying with their every desire), they’ll keep playing, some of them will spend money and should they leave in good terms, they’ll be back down the road when you release big-update#XYZ.

Ultimately, you want them to enjoy your game enough for them to WANT to give you money, to desire supporting you because they like your game.

Piss them off, and they’ll hate you with everything they have. They will not only leave, they’ll make sure anybody they know won’t play your game too. Word of mouth is a powerful thing, just ask the Box Office.

The difficulty in making a free to play MMO is carefully balancing how many and which features are available for free, and what requires money. By far the biggest source of revenue of most free games is cosmetics. If we’ve learned anything from TF2, is that people are willing to spend a LOT of money on absurd costumes and hats, just because they can and because they want to look different.

The easiest way to get people to play your game(By that I mean to keep playing) is to actually encourage them to do so. Not necessarily by giving them a ton of “free” stuff (which is something a lot of MMOs do, daily login rewards, bonus xp, events etc, ) but by simply not putting so many restrictions on just playing the game.(Having millions of restrictions with a paywall to remove them is a pretty popular but ultimately poor business and design decision, you’re simply pissing off customers, Hello Devilian)

This isn’t about being poor or being rich or having money in your pocket. There is a reason why microtransactions are called as such. Pay for one small thing, and then the next purchase becomes easier. As such, developers usually target two different demographics. The casual gamers, and the “whales” (also known as those with very deep wallets who can afford to spend a couple hundred/thousand dollars on free games)

I’ve seen MMOs with only 2-4 character slots when there was 2-3 times that number of very different classes to play and this boggles my mind as to how stupid that is. You want people to play, to try, to mess around.
The only reason that is done is when there is literally no meaningful choices in the way you make your character until you reach max level, and the only difference between you and the next player is your character name, gear (that can otherwise be easily bought of the auction house) and cosmetics.

TL;DR starts here (sorry it’s still pretty long)

When every single character of the same class is identical, you feel forced to put a gap on how many characters player can make, because otherwise they’d go through all the content too quickly. The developers are quite literally putting a paywall on most of the game content, because there isn’t that much content to begin with. This is something that I believe(and hope) ToS is not suffering from, thankfully.

This is where the Pro-Reset/Anti-Reset discussion comes in.
A game like ToS that has this many combination of skills, classes, circles leads to massive theorycrafting by the community, and offers many different ways to play the game.
The issues seem to come from the fact that when you reroll a character, you’re losing all the progress you made on the character you already have, due to:

  • -Unavailability to trade gear (all gear) between characters, including currency (which comes in part from the fact team storage is a pay-only feature)
  • -Low amount of (free) character slots
  • -Cash shop items being untradeable
  • -Various items making character deletion impossible

This leads to people feeling like they wasted their time, and more importantly, their money, when they want to reroll a character because nothing they did with their previous character has any meaning on the next one.

(I’m aware there is XP bonus? tied to the number of characters I believe, but that’s not just not nearly enough)

In a game such as this, with quests (and books/tickets/cards whatever they’re named, I forgot) being the primary sources of xp, leveling isn’t (usually) nearly as big an issue as it is gearing up and accumulating wealth. If you’re rerolling a character and you’d get to keep your wealth, your crafting materials, your gear, well at least you feel like you’re not completely starting from scratch, which is GOOD.

Unless it becomes possible to trade any and all gear between characters at will (hell make it bind on account for all I care) and the number of free character slot is increased to a reasonable amount (whatever is reasonable considering the huge number of class combinations) to allow players to experiment freely, then I believe a reset (whichever kind, soft, hard, throbbing, you guys can argue on the details) can be considered reasonable. (I’d prefer the first option over having access to resets, in my opinion)

TL;DR#2: Increase number of character slots. Make team storage free and make any character bount items account bound instead, including currency. Make any and all microtransactions tradeable between characters of the same account.

Fire up those torches and pitchforks.

4 Likes

Ill be the first to admit.

After, [quote=“spamb0x, post:1, topic:238342”]
First of all, I haven’t played the game yet.
[/quote]

I just didnt bother. So I guess I dont need a pitchfork or a torch, but I am willing to sell them for 100K ingame silver to anyone who wants.

3 Likes

Completely agree 100%.

The problem is that the anti-resetters at-large have taken it upon themselves to own the fact there is no reset. Like it’s an inherent positive quality of the game, and it represents the game’s “hardcore-ness”.

To them, practicality means nothing in the face of their principles. It allows themselves to say “I’m playing a hardcore game”, and have that ultimate ability to tout their excess dispensable time on a game as a superiority to those who lack the same.

Trying to change a feature that has reached such a status in their eyes is the equivelant of taking their manhood, so they will fight tooth and nail to keep it, common sense be damned. This isn’t just being able to reset a circle, it’s ‘this game is hardcore’ or ‘this game is for casuals’.

1 Like

You just 100% agreed to a guy who says,

WIll be almost pure assumptions
Will be almost pure assumptions
hahaha

That’s truely as far as I got.
We are in a bad place.

“First of all, I haven’t played the game yet.”

HAHAHAHHAHAAHAHA

then why are you posting?
ok, ok, that’s a knee-jerk reaction, let’s see if you have valid points in spite of that…

that’s nice… tell us something new.

“paywall” means “cannot be accessed unless.” none of the playable content is restricted at all. everything in the game (except cash shop items, duh) is accessible for free players. you can even buy tokens off the Marketplace, and be a premium member without paying actual money.

see previous, about buying tokens on the marketplace with in-game currency.
no you can’t trade silver. no one can trade silver, so no one is specifically being punished by it. take all that “vast” silver you have, and buy a token, and some gear for your new characters.

1 for each base class. most games have more classes and less slots.

ok, this is a valid point. not -new-, but definitely valid. Cash-shop items and similar stuff (Compensation Items and the like) should be account tradable at least. I think IMC completely skipped that level of tradability. an item simply IS… or IS NOT… tradable, which was a mistake.

nothing prevents you from deleting a character, unless it is still -wearing- gear. just log in to the character, unequip all the gear, and then go delete it. you don’t even have to wait.

TL;DR for your TL;DR
it costs money to run a server. if you’re unwilling to share in the costs, why should you share in the perks (like team storage, or extra character slots) ?

-sigh- looks like i was right at the start. shame.

Like a moth to light you are drawn to wall of text(s?)…

yea, must be something like that, i guess.

ASPIE POWERS ACTIVATE! I MUST CORRECT THIS MISINFORMATION!
…or something.

Why are you? To give my opinion on this topic. Game looks interesting and I wasn’t going to pay for a month of early access when it was supposed to go free to play 4 days after I got interested in the game.

[quote]
“paywall” means “cannot be accessed unless.” none of the playable content is restricted at all. everything in the game (except cash shop items, duh) is accessible for free players. you can even buy tokens off the Marketplace, and be a premium member without paying actual money.[/quote]

I was pretty specifically not talking about ToS, but MMOs in general.

Additionally, somebody is paying for the token at some point in time, those don’t just show up on the auction house on their own. It is nice that it’s possible to buy them with ingame currency though.

[quote]
see previous, about buying tokens on the marketplace with in-game currency.
no you can’t trade silver. no one can trade silver, so no one is specifically being punished by it. take all that “vast” silver you have, and buy a token, and some gear for your new characters.[/quote]

Gear includes anything needed to craft weapons and currency. Is there a reason (except desperately trying to increase time needed to gear up) why character bound items aren’t account bound instead?

[quote]
1 for each base class. most games have more classes and less slots.[/quote]
Most games also have less content and no meaningful differences between characters all the way to max level, which is something I did mention.
“because there isn’t that much content to begin with.” Do you feel like this applies to ToS? Because I personally didn’t think so.

Granted, could have probably looked into that a bit more. Still, I’ve heard about that more than once so there’s probably something fishing going on with that, or a lack of information that causes people to believe this is a thing.

[Quote]TL;DR for your TL;DR
it costs money to run a server. if you’re unwilling to share in the costs, why should you share in the perks (like team storage, or extra character slots) ?[/Quote]

“This isn’t about being poor or being rich or having money in your pocket”

It does cost money, just not that much compared to development costs.

I like how you somehow made this about me. Who says I’m unwilling to share the costs? If it is worth my time and investment, I’ll gratefully pay. I’m not rich by any mean, but I tend to choose carefully where I put my money, since I don’t have that much of it to just throw away.

Everybody’s giving their opinion on this forum, I’m interested in the game, so I thought I’d give my opinion too.

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

Games goes free to play in 9 days. I already waited 6 before learning it was delayed, I can wait until May 10.

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

Quite frankly, I think that by the time I get 500k silver, tokens prices will have increased. We’ll see.

A large majority of players right now are token owners which has contributed greatly to the current token cost being rather low.

It’s not even a question, the price gets way higher once it goes F2P.

Is this “circle reset” the new popular topic?
Stop sculping the game after your personal needs, and just accept it as it is. Its equal for everyone.
If you picked the wrong class, reroll.
Your gear can now be transfered without any potential loss.

I don’t understand why ‘the will of working hard to achieve your goal’ disappeared.

I agree, its quite a gamble for now since all the ranks aren’t out yet, and you can’t predict the future.
So there are two choices, live with it or reroll.
It’s a challenging game, it’s not supposed to be easy.

Being spoon-fed for every difficulty that appears is just out of question.

2 Likes

Hi there. I think you stumbled upon the wrong thread here.
Judging from your post, you completely skipped straight to replying without even reading the first (or last) sentence of the post. Since I’m nice, I’ll give you an extra short TL;DR for your convenience.

My point is that work invested in a character shouldn’t go to waste.

proceeds to tell company how to run the game anyways

Isn’t that what people have been doing on the forums for a while now? At least what I’m asking is in the realm of reasonable.

but it isn’t reasonable, really.

if you wanted to make trash builds that literally just take 1 circle in every job, you’d still need to double the slots to get basic coverage. you’re never going to be able to explore every option on a single account without putting some money into it. most people are going to focus on a single character at a time. hell, the average player will never have time for a second character – they’ll never finish leveling the first one.

freely trading items? yea, well, too bad, that isn’t how the game is designed. it isn’t unfair. it doesn’t cause wasted effort. and it isn’t going to change.

respec? the whole design philosophy of the game is that the choices you make about your character have weight and meaning. when you can just buy a respec to fix all your mistakes, or even because you get bored, then your choices don’t have any meaning anymore. you figure out what the easiest build to level up in is, and then you just respec to your ‘final’ build when you’re done leveling. turns out your final build is junk afterall? that’s ok, just buy another respec. where’s the weight and meaning in that?

“but put limits on the respecs!” like what? if you make them expensive, then it’s just “pay2win”. if you give them a “meaningful time limit” hardcore players will just ignore them when they can simply level a character from scratch in that time, and casual players will get bored waiting for the next respec to become available and wander off to another game.

instead of “wasting the wok invested in a character”, just avoid screwing up your build. do some basic research. you clearly know how to use the forums. instead of bashing a game you haven’t even started playing, why not browse the class forums to learn about various builds? or ask some questions. check out the various fansites/wiki’s. and, like you said before, there are a ton of possibilities and options. with so many choices, there is no “perfect” build.

FYI, if you’d picked up basic info about the game yet, you’d be aware that “Circle” is the term for the number of ranks invested into a single class. eg, a Circle 3 Priest has spent 3 ranks learning priest skills. So @Arccai actually does know what he’s talking about.

1 Like

And? I’m not asking for one character slot per possible build, that’s far from reasonable. We currently have 4, correct? I think 8 or 10 is far more reasonable all things considered. Path of Exile for example (a game which has arguably far more possible builds than this game) gives a whooping 24 slots for free, and still makes one hell of a profit by selling cosmetics and stash tabs instead.[quote=“tzxazrael, post:20, topic:238342”]
freely trading items? yea, well, too bad, that isn’t how the game is designed. it isn’t unfair. it doesn’t cause wasted effort. and it isn’t going to change.
[/quote]
Between the characters of a same account? I’m seriously interested in hearing in detail why you honestly believe that trading items between your different characters is somehow wrong and shouldn’t be a thing.

I’m against respec. I thought that was clear by this point but I guess it wasn’t.

By “Wasting work invested on a character” I’m talking exclusively gear, crafting mats and currency, not skills. Guess that wasn’t clear either.