Tree of Savior Forum

Should all early class rank abilities become irrelevant later on, or stay relevant throughout all ranks?

General Discussion
#1

This is something I’ve been thinking about lately.

I honestly like the idea of early ranks and abilities remaining relevant throughout all levels along with ranks achieved later on.

I’m not sure how this would be done with the current system… maybe coefficients would be needed as opposed to flat values, so at early base levels, the skills you use won’t be incredibly overpowered, but will continue to scale well later on since they scale based off of a coefficient as opposed to a flat value.

We already have specific abilities that scale well into late game (Wiz C3 Quickcast attribute, Archer C2 Swiftstep attribute, Ranger C1-C3 Steady Aim, Rodelero C3 High Kick, Priest C3 Stoneskin, Highlander C1 Critical Attack attribute and Cross Guard, etc) but these are specific skills and not the entire skillset of the classes. There are also some classes that primarily have skills that scale flatly and no coefficient or stat-based multiplier applied directly to skills (Pyromancer and iToS Barbarian as major examples).

Some examples of skills that don’t scale well are Oblique shot, Barrage, Gung Ho/Concentrate, etc… could easily name off a bunch of skills that simply don’t scale well later on, but hopefully you understand where I’m coming from.

In any case, the question I’m asking is what if every skill remained relevant up to the highest rank?

That’s not to say there wouldn’t be stronger skills at later ranks! Let’s assume that when every skill is relevant, the gap in power between the skills would be relatively small and the difference in skills would ultimately be player preference of what skills they want to use along with how they want the feel of their gameplay to be. The current system seems to suggest that R6+ abilities will be the only truly relevant ones by the time we reach rank 9/10 (this is an assumption… please corret me if I’m wrong).

We already have a lot of abilities that will scale well no matter what (Quick Cast, Swashbuckling, Swiftstep attribute, etc) so I personally don’t see the issue of all abilities remaining relevant at all ranks. I personally like the idea of having the option to use skills I’ve invested into at early ranks that still maintain effective use at later ranks… but there’s a reasonable number of skills that just fall off and aren’t worth using at a certain point with the current system.

tl;dr title… feel free to respond directly to the title question

What do you think? ^o.o^

#2

as far as i know. imc intended for lower ranks to be useless in higher level caps. thats why we dont see damage scalling skills for early levels.

#3

you are wrong
every low rank or starter rank have things that can carry you at late game and always useful at whatever level

swordman: gungho, pain barrier, restrain, double slash, bash
archer: swift step, multi-shot, full draw, heavy shot, twin arrow, kneeling shot (with aa build only)
wizard: earth quake, sleep, suresspel, quick cast, magic missile
cleric: heal, cure, divine might, safety zone, fade

also wrong with dmg scaling because low ranks have many multi hit skills
such as
multi shot 15 hit = 1500%
double slash, twin shot = 200%
and more

1 Like
#4

if that happens, then we’d have a more varied list of viable pve dps than this:

  1. ELEMEME
  2. ELEMEME
  3. ELEMEME
2 Likes
#5

Kinda hard to take you seriously when you specify Gung Ho…

But its pretty clear that you didn’t read the entire post ^o.o^

1 Like
#6

i think you’d end up with too many skills to use anyway. the dev would run out of ideas, you’d end with only 3 key skill for all the top jobs 'cause why bother making even more multihit skills.

#7

Easy ways to make a lower rank class relevant forever:

  1. % damage skills (obvious)
  2. CC skills (doesn’t require damage potential to be relevant forever since the important point is being able to lock/stun/sleep whatever)
  3. useful buffs that either scale with level (quick cast, guardian) or that will remain relevant forever because of their effect (sure cast, pain barrier)
  4. debuffs that scale (for exemple Cleave having in the future a -50% slash damage resistance debuff on mobs, making it relevant forever for swords)

I’m not sure what else would work.

#8

i just talk to the 2nd post

and gung ho is good because it gives 100 base atk
it seems weak but with multiplier from multi hit skills and skill attribute it’s pretty good as a starter rank 's skill.

btw
it’s almost equal a +8 weapon bonus from an 8* one

#9

i know this as well. but what i said is what imc said.
base on your reply, why the f does this thread even exist?

now all we need to do is look for multihit skills from swordsman. so far we have one from hoplite and one from doppel. i think corsair also has one? i dunno.

#10

i don’t even know IMC said that before
or you just think that because of strong skills from higher ranks
but like i said, skills from low rank are still very useful

as an rogue c3 most of the time i use my archer c3 skill and i can still got 3m exp grinding alone per hour at lv 260+ maps
that mean it’s not weak, sure that pt grinding earn much more exp but with that amount from solo i don’t think it’s bad

and about multi hit skills from swordman
there are alot
many of them are 2 hit with fast cd

#11

if early class rank abilities become irrelevant later on then wiz 3 will flip there ■■■■

#12

i have forgotten where i read it. i’ll update you if i happen to find it but as you can see, it is clearly intended by imc to be like that. early skills are there in late game because of utility. thats about it. if the skill has no utility, its pretty much crap late game.

im sorry, i know you are pointing that if its more than one its multi. but the thing is, gung-ho scales really bad late game for 2 hit skills. additional 100ish damage for each hit. so thats 200 damage. thats crap right there. and lets say it has 2 overheat, thats 400 damage. still crap late game. although in early to mid its ok. it just doesn’t scale that well late game.

#13

I would like them to stay relevant too. If they didn’t, I feel like it would make picking up early game damage classes not as worth it… over ones for just buffs or status effects. Most of them (majority being multihit skills) are quite alright at r7, but who knows for later ranks?

It could be accomplished with attributes, like say you’re r7. 5 ranks behind you (in this case r2) attack skills gain a 1.5x damage multiplier or whatever. r1’s at r6, etc…

But they would have to balance most or all of the skills up to r5 (or even higher if we get more than r10) to make this not broken for some skills.

#14

swordman is full of fake multihit skills (earthwave, doom spike) in their classes

#15

Swordsman has a decent amount of multi-hit skills that work well early on, but don’t scale well later on due to enemy health and defense.

If we get 0 cd Skyliner, from kToS that gives us a multiplier skill that has no cooldown which is nice, but it just funnels best “dps” swordsman class into Highlander C3 as opposed to Barbarian C3.

kToS Skyliner by itself won’t scale very well when mob defense gets high enough, but luckily Highlander C3 has Skull Swing to surpass enemy defense so Highlander C3 allows a lot of skills to remain relevant in terms of doing their intended damage, but may not scale effectively if enemy hp is too high to warrant the use of any other skill aside from Cross-cut, Skyliner and R6+ abilities like Cyclone, Dragoon skills, etc.

This problem doesn’t just exist for Swordsman though. Oblique shot suffers the same fate too, along with other early-game skills like Barrage. It eventually isn’t worth it to use them because

  • Mob defense/magic defense is too high and the damage the skill does for its SP cost is too low
  • Mob hp is too high and the damage the skill does for its SP cost is too low from a percentile comparison
  • Stronger skills that hit more, harder and/or are available more often are a better SP investment compared to lower-ranked skills

Basically, by using skills that have “dropped off” from early ranks, you’re wasting animation time and SP as opposed to using higher ranked skills and conserving SP to use those skills more often.

Edit: Whoops, you already are aware of this.

#16

Yeah, it would require rebalancing the system completely to incoporate coefficients.

It would also reduce the need to limit classes to a specific forking path. The game could potentially increase the amount of class choices during rank advancement until we get to a point where all classes are unlocked and it just becomes a matter of choosing a class you haven’t picked yet or circling up.

It would definitely open up doors for more varied builds, that’s for sure :3

#17

Early skills relevant to later ranks: some buffs and CCs

#18

It entirely depends on what the game designers want.

Personally, i’m a designer and player who hates designs where low level skills become useless over time, in my opinion skills should always be designed in a way that make them unique and useful even during higher levels and if there exists a higher-level version of a low-level skill then, while the high-level version is more powerful, the low-level version should have some unique ability that the high-level version can’t do.

Clerics heal cells for example are a good example:
They are useful throughout the entire game, since they scale well and even though other heal skills exist that are more effective in certain aspects, like Mass heal, Ein Sof and Healing Factor, Clerics Heal cells remain really useful because you can cast tons of them with a single skill use and they remain on the ground for a long time so you can precast them incase your teammates need them.

If i invest skill points in a skill that becomes utterly useless after a while then i feel that not only skill points invested in that skill are useless but also development time put into that skill was wasted.

1 Like
#19

There are too many skills to make them all useful.

1 Like
#20

At lv 800 I don’t want to be pressing 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,shift1,shift2,shift3,…,shift9,ctrl1,ctrl2,…,ctrl9, repeat for all the ‘useful’ skills.

1 Like