Tree of Savior Forum

Seism vs Cleave

Class and Rank Swordsman
#1

Being a Lv.220+ Fencer I recently decided it was time to “fix” my skill build up. I have been taking at least one single point in every skill of my path (which is the typical SW2>Bar3>Fen2) to try and see for myself whether or not those skills are useful in some way. However there is this major doubt many of us might have which is nothing more nothing less than the Enhance Attributes and how well those define/make or break a skill later on. As a relatively poor fella, I have kept literally every Enhance Attribute at Lv.0 for every skill so far and decided to go firstly for a solid/decent grinding gear set.
My main doubt though is the following build for the Barbarian Circle which I came up with taking in consideration my own and other player’s feedbacks. Which one do you believe to be a more solid one if you factor in FUTURE Lv.50+ Enhance Attributes? The following are the ones I am having trouble deciding on:

  • Embowel (0)
  • Stomping Kick (0)
  • Cleave (12)
  • Helm Chopper (1)
  • Warcry (10)
  • Frenzy (10)
  • Seism (10)
  • Giant Swing (1) [for whenever it gets fixed in PvP scenarios]
  • Pouncing (1)

or

  • Embowel (0)
  • Stomping Kick (0)
  • Cleave (15)
  • Helm Chopper (1)
  • Warcry (10)
  • Frenzy (10)
  • Seism (7)
  • Giant Swing (1)
  • Pouncing (1)

or

  • Embowel (0)

  • Stomping Kick (0)

  • Cleave (15)

  • Helm Chopper (8)

  • Warcry (10)

  • Frenzy (0)

  • Seism (10)

  • Giant Swing (1)

  • Pouncing (1)

    Please note that in the first one I decide to leave Cleave at Lv.12 and favor Seism at Lv.10 because the latter’s superior scaling (about +400 for 3 lvls. vs the +200 for those same 3 lvls on Cleave) and non-stun dependent nature vs boss monsters. However, let us recall that Cleave nearly triples its damage when used on a target under stun effect and also scales with the slash debuff from Fencer’s Lunge skill (which also scales Seism), turning Cleave into the higher scaling under the right combo simply because of a stunned target. This is where one of my doubts come into play: would both skills’ Enhance Attributes favor Cleave or Seism the most; and should one focus on Seism instead for extra boss damage or Cleave for stunable mobs?

    Lastly, I am still deciding on whether to take Frenzy or not depending on how well it scales with those Enhance Attributes. That is, if the 200-400 extra attack stat is effectively doubled with an attribute Lv.100 of whatever skill I do believe it is worth both the points invested and effort to stack them. I have made up my mind on Warcry being superior (in my opinion, that is) when compared to Frenzy. Even more so if the kToS patch is fully applied and reduces both those skills’ cooldowns.

    In conclusion, those 3 points that allow me to take Lv.10 Frenzy; should I place them in Seism or Cleave (respectively Lvs. 7 and 15 or 10 and 12); or disregard Frenzy completely and allow up to 8 Lvls. of Helm Chopper, giving us a relatively moderate means to deal strike damage besides Coquille? I am slightly more inclined to prioritize Seism over Cleave due to the latter’s stun requirement and leaving Helm Chopper at Lv.1 (boss monsters cannot be stunned, afterall). Please do let me know your thoughts, however complex, on the matter. Thank you for your time.

Edit: noticed that upon resetting skills you no longer have the need to meet the skill levels’ requirement to benefit from their attribute. This leaves me a little bit afraid of using those points elsewhere in case a future patch “fixes” this up. But that is a whole new story.

1 Like
#2

Is there a major reason to put more than 3 points into Warcry?

I think you only need 3 points for the +30 Physical Attack buff per target, and Barb C3 gives you the Add Target attribute for up to 10 targets.

Do you also gain Physical damage based on the defense reduced, per target?

Guide to Fencer / Doppel / Bullet Marker [PVE]
#3

That is the thing @xinronyr, the Attribute is misleading. It applies a +30 physical attack ONCE instead of per target affected by the debuff. This means that, at maxed attributes and max level, Warcry applies up to 330 extra physical attack. At Level 3 it would only apply 14x10 plus those 30 from the Attribute meaning a total of 170 extra attack.

Also, it debuffs the targets’ phyical. defense by the same value you gain PER TARGET as phys. atk (14 at level 3 and 30 at level 10). This means that under normal circumstances you will be having 330 + 30 attack (the latter coming from the -30 defense debuff of a maxed Warcry) applied versus a single target debuffed by this skill, if all 10 targets were present when the skill was cast.

Edited to make it clearer.

#4

So that means you reduce the primary target’s defense by 360 and increase your attack by 330 with 10 targets present and max Warcry? o.o

#5

Sorry, didn’t mean to derail the point of your thread. Was just seeing if you could move points to get more of both Seism and Cleave :3

#6

Unfortunately no. You reduce 30 defense per target. You do indeed reduce 300 defense total, but that value is split between each target which means -30 for each. Basically you reduce every target (up to a max of 10 targets) defense by 30 and gain a buff of 30 + 30 x (number of targets), up to a maximum of 330 attack (10 targets + 30 from the attribute) as extra physical attack. In even simpler terms, when 10 targets are around you, you debuff each one of them for 30 defense and get 30 physical attack for each one affacted, plus 30.

Also, the whole relative value of Warcry comes from being an instant buff versus the stacking inherent to Frenzy. Since it works on every hostile entity around you such as traps, independent skills such as fireball, pavises and caltrops.

Edit: no worries @xinronyr, the whole point of this thread is precisely these discussions which eventually lead to more refined builds.

#7

Okay no problem. The way you worded it initially made me think that was the case, but thank you for the clarification :3

#8

Sorry for butting in. But you can leave Warcry to level 1 right? And still be able to get the 300 attack buff by getting the skill attributes? Only increase you get from leveling Warcry is the -def? No less in cd, no increase in dur?

#9

Unfortunately you cannot @migzzz. Please do read the few posts above with a bit more attention, if you have the time. The attribute of +30 attack is applied only once after the whole debuffing and buffing effect of Warcry. At level 1 you can only get a total of +50 attack from debuffing 5 enemies simultaneously. Each level spent on Warcry buffs you for more damage per target aflicted and less defense for each of those targets.

Moreover, keep in mind that the attribute from warcry which extends its duration by 10 seconds also makes it 10 seconds longer in terms of cooldown effectively only reducing its SP cost per cast rather than making it “more spammable”. The +10 targets attribute also extends its cooldown by another 10 seconds making it a 1 minute and 42 seconds cooldown skill. (correct on 16 June, 2016; Its cooldown might be reduced in future patches. Please refer to kToS patch notes)

#10

Yeah my apologies on that one. Got a little bit confused. I saw the cd increased that’s why I am now reluctant on getting level 10 Warcry and planning on leaving it at level 1.

Another question. You could not turn off the skill attribute from Frenzy right? The one that can maintain stacks but at the cost of having half of what is your current max stacks.

#11

Are you going for Fencer C2? If yes this is more ideal. do you really want to waste 10/20 hits charging frenzy when you could do more in those hits with composee or flanconnade?

If you’re someone who doesn’t like using SP potions too much take frenzy, if you like to be the best you can, don’t. Take the time to use your 0cd skills instead of wasting on charging frenzy.

SP potions are becoming cheap right now, about 500 silver each on Telsiai. You can also get 80 free a day doing gimmicks.

#12

@migzzz, there are two things to take in cosideration about that.

First, if you plan on using Warcry either max it or leave it near max level; do not leave it at level 1 or low level since it consumes too many skill points for a relatively low boost on atk. I would say either max it or do not take it at all.

Secondly, you can indeed turn the frenzy attribute on and off so do not worry about it too much. Just keep in mind that the attribute does not cut your current stacks in half. It cuts the max possible potential stack in half. That is, if you max frenzy you will only be able to stack it 10 times rather than 20, but you get to keep them for the whole duration even when switching targets.

#13

@Lostac, I reached Fencer C2 2 days ago. While I do completely agree with your point of spamming those 0 cooldown skills rather than stacking frenzy, 400 potential extra attack (doubled if under a 100% Enhance attribute) seems pretty tempting. Those are still independent build wise, although dependent when it comes to damage per second as you perfectly stated above. I believe it is a risk worth taking in exchange of a few extra damage taken away from either cleave/seism and helm chopper but that is exactly why I have asked for our community’s opinion. In other words, since fencer benefits from a decent range of multi hitting skills, i believe it might be a decent investment later on*. Please do keep the discussion going if you feel like it because it is striking precisely where it needs to.

*for those relatively new reading and wondering why, simply because despite the whole common argument of swordsmen skills having “no scaling” they still obviously have a 100% atk modifier applied for each hit they do, meaning a higher base attack does not always translate into that same value applied once. it applies every time a skill hits, however.

#14

Since you’re barb 3, just make use of the attribute if you want frenzy.

This is from my experience of grinding on maps post alemeth, you don’t want to waste time charging that thing, keep it at level 10 and turn the attribute on if you want frenzy, this makes stacking charges easier.

Usually you’ll just taunt>prep>seism>coquille>sept>lunge in parties, after that it’s either spamming 0cd skills or monsters will already be dead thanks to your dps team. No room for a lot of normal attacks really. 400 potential attack is good, but look at the frenzy duration you wasted achieving that, and the time left to use that “400 attack”, boss wise of course it’s still ideal to have that boost, but say, doing a 130 boss rush, I’ve probably killed the boss already while you’re still charging your frenzy.

#15

A pretty valid point, thank you. I would just like to add a couple things.

First, it takes indeed alot of time to stack but I usualy run with its attribute on, meaning a slightly less relevant impact on DPS while stacking it 10 times. However you are completely right, it seems counterproductive lowering our DPS in order to increment it later, making it close to useless on lower hp targets.

Secondly, assuming i take the risk with a maxed frenzy for longer fights, i would still be left with the doubt between cleave 12 seism 10 or cleave 15 seism 7. All this because helm chopper’s boost from 1 to 8 does not seem all that relevant given its use mainly as a stunning method. What would your opinion be? Thank you.

#16

Seism is your only realiable AoE, every bit of damage from it counts.

I still hope that we get some nice aoe on fencer c3 or at least a good strike type skill. Because we really have nothing other than Seism for aoe ratio.

Oh and don’t worry about 0% enhance attributes, I’m 280 and everything is at 0. I’d rather spend items because currently fencer is probably not a class I’d play forever, until we get buffs. At least with items I can share them with my alts.

#17

Thank you, I have been slightly more in favor of seism as well.

I forgot to mention with the whole fencer thing that i have taken preparation lv 5, which counters your idea of spamming 0 cd skills to some extent. How significant is a lv 5 compose vs a lv 1 one? I’ll hardly give up prep 5 (7 in fact given venier) simply because i feel its the only defensive tool i’ve got without peltasta on this build. It seems a little bit odd to take it when using a high dexterity build but somehow i really really like the fact i can act as a really short term tank in case something goes wrong with a party.

#18

You shouldn’t really spend more than 1 point on prep, the block scaling per level is awful and you’d probably be better with kiting mobs. Just use prep and cancel it to get the double damage bonus on your Sept Etoiles. It also has future use when we get higher ranks with pierce bursts.

Composee is a nice skill at Lv1 (3 venier) but I think even my sp potions won’t be able to hold a level 7 composee. So level 1+attributes will do. A level 3 composee with venier and a few attributes in that and you’ll do 10k composee crits, which is nice

#19

Thanks once again. I can see what you mean, 5% block per level is not much . Having a 85% under venier for 10 whole seconds seems so very much fun though, altough situational. I don’t know, i guess i just love the concept of the skill, hence why i didn’t include it on my doubts list.

But indeed thank you for the compose insight.

Just for a bit more of context, planning on doing:

  • Lunge (10)
  • Sept Etoiles (8)
  • Ataque Coquille (4)
  • Esquive Toucher (1)
  • Flanconnade (1)
  • Attaque Composee (1)
  • Preparation (5)

In case I end up taking 4 levels out of Preparation might as well give one extra to Coquille and 2 more for Sept. Leaving one for probably Composee. Depending on if we ever get the Esquive PvP Patch of 4 seconds I might end up balancing it with Lunge (despite lunge’s superior utility and cooldown, Esquive buff can be proc’d without hitting a target, meaning one could maybe apply a higher evasion buff as a means of gap closing or prediction evasion, no?)

Sorry for taking too much of your time.

#20

Yeah that’s cool. I have dreams of chopping an arrow mid-air with flanconnade too, happened with tera imp archers on Workshop. If you have plans to pvp Esquive will do well for that. 4 on coquille+2 with venier or lolopanther is good enough, so you can have more for esquive or whatever you prefer.

I’m currently with
10 - Lunge
10 - Sept
4 - Coquille
1 - Flanconnade
1 - Composee
1 - Prep

3 unspent skill points waiting for a balance patch or anything on fencers.