Tree of Savior Forum

Rise from the grave! Bring Pardoner back with your ideas and dedication :D

Ok, after everyone forsake the Sadhu improvement (not enough love it seems),
let’s talk about improving Pardoner today.

Since IMC stated in their post (30.12. 2016, developers blog)

  1. Adjustments should be carefully planned to avoid one class dominating its rank or being left out, and to achieve a fairly equal distribution of classes in each rank.
    

and Monk was “improved”, Pardoner has to be improved a lot to be at least “equal” (since it was already a lot worse than[= inferior to] Monk initially).

Improvement have to take these two facts into consideration:

1st: the attack skills of Pardoner are practically the worst out there

and 2nd: the silver costs for the Pardoner skills are too high to make them viable

Let’s first see what defines the Pardoner. Pardoner is supposed to be a Class about dealing with money, i.e. collecting silver by selling “Parchments” in the form of scrolls which allow you to get away with your “sins” by means of indulgence.

Yet currently, “scrolling” is probably the least profitable part of being a Pardoner. Most skills are bad at low levels, and the high costs of Parchments per scroll-skillevel combined with 500 silver per skilllevel makes it not viable to scroll skills beyond level 5, resulting in level 6-15 Simony becoming the most useless skillpoint waste ever created in this game.

Aside from the stupidly broken main characteristic of the Class (which became the famous Priest buff shop in the process because it lacks usefulness in both Simony and battle power), there is little left to call it a working Class. If the buff shop skill was on Pardoner Circle 1, I bet that noone would want to create a Pardoner beyond that.

This leads us to the next point: combat skills.
Aside from the crafting and selling skills, Pardoner features 4 skills, 2 attack skills and 3 support skills (I counted Indulgentia twice since it’s both debuff removal and damage skill at once).

Increase Magic Defence and Discerning Evil are two badly designed support skills, as they do basically nothing for the Pardoner himself and/or are scaling quite badly.
While Increase Magic Defense is practically only useful on a status point build with high amounts of SPR, it lasts only 50% of its CD time [Meanwhile, Priests Aspersion increases 50% physical defence with 100% uptime although it’s only a Rank 2 skill].

Discerning Evil has its uses on a Plague Doctor for Incineration or to aid some other non-Cleric Classes to keep their debuffs on enemies running, it’s useless for Pardoner itself as he can’t debuff.

Now let’s look at the skills that can deal damage, Indulgentia and Decatose.
Indulgentia is a very solid damage skill because it provides a good amount of targets which increase with the skilllevel, but it lacks in attractiveness due to its Silver cost and the simple fact that the CD time of 30 seconds is way too high for the only damaging skill of the Pardoner until Circle 3. Just look at the Monk with 0-25 seconds CD time on most of his Circle 1 and 2 skills and you’ll realize just how much inferior the Pardoner is.

Decatose comes very late at Circle 3 and has 3 extreme flaws:
1st: The only thing that scales with baselevel is the base damage, and the scaling is really bad for a Rank 7 skill
2nd: The skill costs 1500 silver to use
3rd: The skill has no damage-increasing attribute

Aside from the 10% instant kill chance, the skill is not very good, and has only merits by leveling it beyong 1 (higher SP costs and only 100 more damage per point invested)…



So, looking at the developers improvement of Monk, let’s come up with some ideas that are not exceeding the “balances” that have been made.

I’d say the following steps need to be taken to make Pardoner a viable Class choice aside from being a dead end-shop Class:

  • reduce the costs of Simony. Simony is supposed to keep the base Classes where the skills stem from viable and provide some help, but the current system punishes everyone who skills Simony beyond level 5.
    To change this, the base costs should be reduced to 400 silver per skilllevel scrolled + 1 parchment every 3 skillevels consumed (meaning level 1-3 scrolls require 1 parchment, level 4-6 scrolls require 2 parchments and so on).

  • reduce the CD time of Indulgentia. Although it serves as a debuff removal skill, the damage aspect should be the main focus, so 15-20 seconds would be a proper CD time to make it more useful.

  • introduce a Pardoner Circle 3 Class attribute that reduces the silver costs of all skills (Simony,Indulgentia and Decatose) by 50%. Since Monk got a very useful Circle 3 Class attribute focused on strike attacks (main Class focus), the money-focused Pardoner should recieve a Class attribute that revolves about money, too. Giving a 50% silver cost discount on all skills would make the Class and its skills more attractive.

  • since Monk got additional %-scaling on most of his skills now, Pardoner should get it,too. However, since Pardoner is a little different, how about changing the way Oblation works instead? Change the attribute effect of Oblation from 1 fixed damage per item inside Oblation to 0,1% additional damage with Indulgentia and you have your %scaling while also giving Oblation some use later on.



Now’s your time: Throw your $$$… errr, I mean ideas at me and plead for indulgence of your sins of playing TOS :sunglasses:

5 Likes

I agree with some stuff but let me give some ideas.

Discerning evil is the charm of pardoners and can pretty much stun lock any non-boss mob thanks to the blunt mastery.30 seconds stun is too strong.
Indulgentia shouldn’t be a damaging like you said but I agree about the oblation bonus.Instead,I would like to suggest a buff for the party.Since Pardoners deal with money,it suits the class to have a buff which needs you to pay for the party in my opnion.The buff could be an attack boost or defense boost to increase on top of aspersion and magic defense.Magic defense also needs some better duration and there is no point to get more than 1 level so instead of its base mdef increase with level,it should increase its duration with level and ignore all spr scaling.Instead of increase magic defense,it should reduce magic damage taken which scales with level too to give us a better reason to go pardoner 3.Discerning evil should stay the same.Decatose could have be a 0 cd skill and keep its cost in my opnion.It will be a silver hungry skill but with a 10% per skill use to kill,it can be quite powerful.

My only suggestion is to remove simony completely and replace it with something else, like they had planned. (Said it on an old dev post.)
Instead they decided to add simony 2.0 which is complete garbage… oh how disappointed I was… :sob:

Balancing a shop class can be difficult, I don’t know if they should be or if they want them to be as useful in combat as other classes, I personally wouldn’t mind it thought.

1 Like

They were -supposed- to completely gut this class a long time ago between iCBT2 and release but never did because…ya know just IMC doing IMC things.

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Do you have a source for this? I don’t remember anything else but the plans to remove simony and replace it with something else.

Looked but not trying to spend a ton of time here for the source. It is tied into with people complaining about scrolls and buffs then all the changes happened because of that after they said it was going to be completely gutted. Someone else can find it if they want because it’s somewhere faded into obscurity.

1 Like

Whats wrong with simony? Pardoners will become even more garbage if it was removed.

Better change decatose or oblation.

Oblation reworked: New accounts ( lvl 200 below ) can use the oblation to get donated equips from other players. Earn points for every equips you donated ( rarity = more points ). You can exchanged the points from pardoner master for ( soul crystals, exp tomes, specialized pots, exp cards). Pardoners can get max of 20 points, players gets 10 points per day.

I have lots of equips and recipes that will matter for newbies, i just sell them to NPCs to clear my inventory.

Pardoner surely needs a buffs. C3 pardoner is Rank 7, and decatose is garbage for rank 7 class. Change decatose into money making skill comparable to Alchemist.

Make Pardoners great again!!

Oh, have they ever been great?

Yep in some interview they said they will replace the whole skill scroll system. Instead they added more of it to enchanters. Hmm wonder what made them changed their minds.

Despite the skills being bad, Pardoner is still quite a popular selection. I dont see why they should change anything. Pardoner isnt created for making money. You dont want another necro/warlock shitstorm.

I agree Simony is trash due to too little useful craftable skills if go C3 pardoner. #somuchhardship #scrollsdidntsell #stareatthoseunsoldscrolls. It will be better if they can make it like Oracle by making the skill one level max at C1. With that, they can add another slightly more supportive/utility skill.

Dispeller crafting is not supposed to be profitable, just like arrow crafting of Fletcher isnt made to make money from selling arrows. The ability to infinitely craft dispeller without cooldown literally killed most of the in game harmful effects. It is supposed to cost alot so that pardoners wont infinitely craft this thing and stay invulnerable all time.

Open shop allows Pardoner to gain some money, to cover the cost of dispeller crafting. In my opinion, this skill killed many other possibilities of Pardoner. Pardoners were pretty much forced to pick 3 circles of Priest in order to make full use this skill. It will be better if Spell shop become a skill that sell extended buff of any circle the player has chosen.

Increase Magic Defense buff is fine to me, but I’d prefer the skill to become an aura skill that decreases magic damage by percentage so that it wouldnt be stats dependent.

Indulgentia is useful because of aoe cure. Cleric cure skill is almost trash because players probably cant move to the Cure tile when they get harmful effect anyway. The skill should reduce cooldown with increase in skill level.

For a silver cost based skill, Decatose cd is too long. They should switch Decatose to C1, either increase range&reduce damage or reduce damage&reduce cost. Discerning Evil should replace Decatose in C3.

3 Likes

I don’t usually comment or suggest any ideas, but I wanted to submit some modifications to the different skills of the Pardoner class, which I think is one of the best class concept of the game. Be indulgent.

[Simony
Only works in town. Opens a shop where religious items are sold. Allows to equip talisman in armbands. Level 1 to 5: 4 talismans increasing damage to Fire, Ice, Earth or Lightning monsters by 50%. Level 6 to 10: 4 talismans increasing damage to Holy, Dark, Poison or Ghost monsters by 50%. Level 11 to 15: 1 talisman increasing the damage by 25% against all the elementary monsters. Price between 2500 silver and 10k silver. Consumes 1 to 3 amulets purchased from the Pardoner Master for 1500 silver each. Duration of equipment 30mn. Duration 6h / CD 1h.]
(Reduce this skill to 5 lvl max?)

Indulgentia
A magic circle that heals rank 1 and 2 debuff of the allies in it and prevents enemies from beeing healed. Range 25 + 15 x lvl. 1000 silver (2 coins). Duration 20s + 10 x lvl / CD 90s.

Discerning Evil
Rank 3 Debuff. Maintains negative effects on enemies. Can’t be applied twice on the same target. Number of targets 2.5 + 0.5 x lvl. Duration 5s + 1 x lvl / CD 30s.

Increase Magic Defense
Reduces the magical damage received by 3% x lvl. 500 silver (1 coin). Duration 60s / CD 120s.

Oblation
Donation box. Can be opened anywhere except in dungeons (?). Creates an area around the Pardoner canceling the threat of monsters. Converts the given recipes into coins for the Pardoner. 3 coins x star. Rank 3 buff. Increases the drop rate of objects by 2% (3?) x lvl for the donator. Buff duration 30mn. Duration 6h / CD 300s.

[Spell Shop
Modify the list of proposed spells and incorporate some higher rank spells.]

Decatose
Rank 2 Debuff. Reduces the magic defense of enemies to zero. AoE Attack Ratio 3 + 1 x lvl. Physical / Strike 200% 900 + 300 x lvl. 1500 silver (3 coins). Duration 3s + 1 x lvl / CD 20s.

Those are my suggestions. I hope it helps to rethink the Pardoner class.

1 Like

I made a pardoner3 only to find it was absolutely crap unless I wanted more mdef that didn’t even last very long. Good thing I had a rank reset voucher. I don’t think I’ve ever seen oblation box on the dying server named Orsha so I don’t even know how it’s used.

Pardoner should be reworked so it’s not just a lowly shop that makes very little on return from scrolls and buffs. It’s like it’s only job is to make daino, barrier and dispell scrolls for everyone else to use…and then it’s forgotten…more forgotten than sadhu…

I think the Mdef should have closer to 80% uptime because 100% would be too much and 50% isn’t quite long enough. It’d be nice if Induglentia was a debuff for monsters too. I originally thought it debuffed monsters around the player, while removing status effects on team members. Even if it’s a random debuff, it’d still be nice to complement with Discerning Evil.

And I agree with an attribute to make skills cost less.

3 Likes

Oblation is a crap donation box that allows other players to sell their craps to the pardoner. Works fine other than one thing. The oblation box will continue to allow players to sell their stuffs even after your box is full. If the oblation box is left too long and become full, the pardoner will continue to lose money from buying crap but in reality nothing was bought due to full box.

2 Likes

If you look at the historic figure&background that spawned the Pardoner, it’s practically a necessity to make Pardoner a money-making Class.
Clergymen/the Church in the middle ages had exactly 3 sources of income, community contributions (10% of the peoples income went as taxes to the Church), donations (including everything from donating during the holy mass to large donations by noblemen to take care of their siblings/children, open the churches to become family tombs,etc.) and by selling services.

These services were basic things like exorcism, sacraments (wedding or anointment e.g.), intercessions and, later on, indulgence, which was leading to Martin Luthers Reformation.

Indulgence is the absolution of your sin(s) you also can recieve at Easter, Pentecoast or Christmas by the Pope, but in contrast to the Popes absolution, which required the active use of the sacrament shrift to be valid,
Indulgence could be bought in form of a scroll/ticket/etc. before you actually comitted the sin and be already absoluted from it.
It even went as far as you were able to buy Indulgence for other people, regardless of them being alive or already dead, to enable them to recieve absolution and escape the purgatory.

With this in mind, Pardoner without the money-making mentality/ability loses basically all historical references that made him “Pardoner” in the first place.

Also, I don’t really understand you concern regarding this point. Pardoner is a Class you need to play actively to earn money in contrast to afk-Necros/Sorcerers or macro-Locks.
Both Indulgence (Simony) and Sacraments (Buff shop) are supposed to be stable sources of income, with Indulgence being slightly more profitable due to it being the main feature the Class is based on.

The current situation the Pardoner is in can’t be described as good.
Especially since Buff Shop and Simony are basically requiring totally different builds, and people usually don’t play their Pardoners actively anymore once they reached C>P3>Pardoner2. Pardoner is a dead end as a buff shop requiring Priest C3 currently, it’s a Class so bad it makes the people not wanting to play the character any further.

If you think the “popular selection” due to being a buff shop is a thing, I disagree with you. I don’t reallly see people with more than Pardoner C1 (this is already rare, mostly appearing in PD builds or in scroll slaves for Paladins Barrier) in their builds anywhere if they aren’t Priest C3 going to be buff shops…

3 Likes

Ok, so basically you want the class to be able to make easy money and be useful. I did suggested some possible skill changes. Unfortunately it is impossible to give both easy money making capability and good skills at the same time.

My point for pardoner shouldnt be money maker mainly come from my 2nd point regarding Dispeller. It was mainly because cheap crafting price will make not just the pardoner invulnerable to ailments, the dispeller can be sold cheaply to other players which will potentially break certain part of game experience for the whole server.

I’m not sure why you have to point out the obvious thing like Pardoner need to play actively earn money. I see no problem there. The classes that dont have to play actively to earn money are the problem here, which is why dispeller/indungence shouldnt become money making skills so that Pardoner dont join them. I did not mentioned anything about spell shop should not make money. As you said, its the skills that killed the choices for pardoner. Which is why I’ve suggested those skill changes? If you think pardoner is not popular or would like to make it better, why dont you suggest some skill changes here?

*it is pretty much pointless to tell me the history of church because I have no interest in it. I only care about the fictional pardoner in game.

2 Likes

1st of all we have to define the pardoner and how that translates to the game. @Adeodatus has provided a very nice background to RL pardoners and what they do. Money money money in exchange for religious favors.

We currently have that in dispeller scrolls, [simony], [oblation] and [spell shop].

No one actually uses [oblation] because, people simply manage their weight. If they do go OW they can simply feed some gear (usually the culprit for being to heavy anyway) to a gem. Add to the fact that crap (misc items) isn’t worth much anyway.

I’m actually “fine” with the idea behind “money”. The problem is we spend WAAAAAAAAAY more than we make. Profits range in the 100’s while costs are in the 1000’s. If we can come up with a decent silver cost for skills, I’m fine with it being “the mechanic” for pardoners.

For example, we can go with using skills on cd with an equivalent silver cost (via passive attribute available for being a pardoner). Off the top of my head, cost could be silver modifier x (base skill cd + sp cost). It would be better with a comparison to sp pots though.

So, would it be ok to identify the pardoner as a sort of accountant (where in the resource they manage isn’t sp but silver)?

This is what happened to the Class, though. Pardoner became an afk-shop that’s set up in a town/field to sell buffs while you do anything else[+ selling Dispellers on the market].
It’s just that the profit is waaaaay lower than afk-ing Necros can net in.

Dispeller+Daino scrolls+Barrier scrolls are the things that make the other $$$ of Pardoners. Dispeller is a little too good,though, given that everyone can recieve the buff-removing effects that usually only a Cleric can provide.


Btw, as the OP of this thread, I put up some suggestions to make Pardoner more viable. They are just very very moderate, considering the “balance” changes that the developers presented us with as enhancement for Monk Class. All beyond that will most likely scare the staff and developers away {to even take my changes into consideration}…

Ok… there we go again, even i loving this kind of topic i got a feeling that it will be ignored as many others.

Before anything i just want to make clear that i’ve only had one pardoner so far (Krivis 3 - Kannushi - Pardoner 2) so i miss some problems due lack of experience with the class. Also i’ll take Pardoner as a crafting/shop class with high affinity with money and as a support as secondary role.

Pardoner has an interesting concept/role that, as many other classes, isn’t properly executed and as OP said it’s quite interesting to tackle the money aspect as a direction for it - ironically of all crafting classes Pardoner is the most useful for party play since it can use at least half of its tools in combat (unlike Squire and Alchemist that relies completely in previous ranks) - but we can’t forget that in order to improve it it might be needed to sacrifice some of it current power.

Therefore i’ll let some improvement suggestions along with some of the issues i see within the class targeted to more profit and overall diversity to the class synergy.

Simony Personaly i see this as one of the most powerful skills on Pardoner tool kit (only losing to Discerning Evil) but the cost is too high to make it useful or practical. The main problem here is both the skill pool limitation and the crafting cost for the desired effect, having the same cost for both R1 and R6 skills isn't that fair since a higher rank skill should be stronger by default (even when skills don't deal any damage).

The suggestion here may sound obvious but i think it’s really important to review the crafting formula to relieve some of the cost based on skill rank, this can decrease the overal crafting cost and make scrolls more attractive (check the link bellow).

With this change it’s possible to add more mid/high rank class skills in the game and also relieve most of the costs of lower rank skills so they can be obtained without harming real players that got natural access to these skills like the case with Barrier, that will have their cost/price increase significantly.

Another interesting point is that if some skills had some components removed from their base effect and added as an attribute, with this it would be possible to enable it as a scroll. Some elegible skills are.

Hexing - Remove SPR scale.
Divine Stigma - Reduce buff duration.
Increase Magic Defense - Remove party share buff.
Healing Factor - Increase regeneration delay.
Ein Soft - Reduce HP given.
Dark Sight - Reduce charm duration.

Increase Magic Defense Pretty simple here, add some extra duration to it with level, overheat, or some extra SPR scale with skill lvl.
Oblation That's a great example of how to make a skill as confusing as possible for unknow benefits. The interacting player (when there's one) dispose some loot to get some silver (which could be done through market) and the Pardoner gets some random goodies (that doesn't seem to be tradable) that may be completely useless, those two factors make quetionable why any of the side would want to use the skill. Along with that there's also the restriction on Oblation placement requiring a godess statue to be used...

Even being a really clunky skill it got a really interesting concept and it can easily be remade to be good for both parts, here are some suggestions to fix some of the issues.

Change item donation into fixed silver donation.

  • Players can donate Silver to get special buffs (50~200 Silver), the caster can do it as well as any service shop.
  • Disables skill once the box is full. Silver can be taken (with 30% loss) whenever the skill isn’t active.
  • Attribute can convert the Silver collected into damage by consuming it when attacking/casting skills.

Grant buffs/effects to players that donated

  • Provide flat Physical/Magical Atack/Defense buff after donating (limited to donation map and channel only) that has efficiency and/or duration increased with skill lvl.
  • Completely restore HP and SP with a cooldown (30 min for each diff Pardoner?).
  • Create neutral zone that prevent all damage income from both mobs and players while near any goddess statue with Oblation active.
Spell Shop Being really straight forward, it's quite weird to have a skill that is completely based on 3 skills from a single class. Along with that there's also the issue with party Priest vs Pardoner, it's not possibility to overwrite Pardoner blessing and having Sacrament and Aspersio seems pointless for non Pardoners Priests (aside Chaplain).

Therefore here are some suggestions to address some of the issues in a fair way.

Overall

  • Add attribute that allows more low impact skills consuming their respective skill scrolls (Daino, Zalcial, Monstrance, Restoration, Forecast).
  • Cap the purchasable skills to match Spell Shop lvl (up to 12 adding a monster gem).

Blessing

  • Change into “blessingB” making it possible to have both Pardoner’s (flat) and Priest’s (scalling) Blessing or ignore its effects while other Blessing is active.
  • Add skill scaling effect based on customer stats.
  • Allow it to scale properly (only if lvl cap is applied)

My only goal with those suggestions is to make Pardoner more interesting to interact with without harming other classes. Some will see these suggestions as ridiculous or that they don’t worth the sacrifice but i’ld be pretty happy if the class were a lil more friendly for different builds and to the ones that really own the skills. After all Pardoners should only complement your experience when out of your party.

Well, you can really expect this to be ignored because despite its flaws, pardoner still does something good in and off combat. It does what it says it does and is therefor “not broken”.

To put things in perspective, the monk got changes to it because it wasn’t doing what it was supposed to be doing “dps with its whole kit”. It was clearly broken how every monk was ignoring everything except [double punch].


After watching a lot of FF 30th anniversary stuff, I would like to propose that pardoners be “money for miracles” in combat (akin to FF summons in terms of spectacle).

[indulgentia] is on the right track. It has a wide aoe and cures lv2 status effects instead of just lv1 and does (pitiful) damage. It could stand to lose the target cap and become true aoe in both effects to make it more “spectacular”. It could decrease cd per skill lv to make it more than a “1pt wonder” at -2sec per lv . Summon UNICORN!!

[discerning evil] is ok but could stand to be true aoe as well.

[increase magic defense] as @Hillgarm said just needs a lot MORE scaling. For a more spectacular version you could add the reflect effect of boss cards to it. Summon CARBUNCLE

[decatose] is just out of sync with the rest of pardoner.

Heh, I don’t see how the Pardoner is doing “something good” or in any place to sacrifice more “power”.

Basically the whole Class design is so flawed that it makes the playing experience terrible.
Since you can only craft scrolls of skills you have at skill levels that your build has, independent from your level of Simony, the only useful skills for actual combat are Indulgentia, Decatose, scrolled Cure and scrolled Turn Undead. That’s not a lot to bring to the battlefield if you ask me, and especially not anywhere near good enough to balance out the usefulness- difference between Monk and Pardoner.

While Monk is an useful addition to physical builds, Pardoner is really bad as the magical counterpart/alternative to be taken into consideration (unless you plan to go for Plague Doctor e.g.); even Sadhu C2 is way better than Pardoner C1, given that prolonging debuff duration or some poor damage of lvl 1-5 Indulgentia doesn’t help in many cases (hit limit, channeling problem, no debuffs available for many Cleric Classes[if we don’t count the damage debuffs like Heal,Cure or Possession]), while Simony is limited to some distinctive skills and Spell Shop entirely to Priest Class.

It’s ridiculous how bad the Class is, so reading something about power or being useful is so subjective I don’t even know where to look anymore (gotta play the three apes)…

About Oblation: The skill is only useful once you decide to get Pardoner C3 to have it at level 6+ to be able to attribute it to increase your Indulgentia-damage by up to 1k flat damage. Not too shabby in the beginning, but bad at “endgame” content. Turning it into an alternative buff shop just makes the Class more afk-shop and less enjoyable to play, especially if you only get damage boni once you spend the money inside the box.

This forces players to permanently AFK-setup the box near a goddess statue on whatever field for a little benefit in the end. More AFK, less enjoyable, please not. Using it as an additional damage multiplier for Indulgentia&maybe Decatose makes more sense and encourage more active playing once the box is full.

Also, please not more buff shops. The buff shops are already bad, because anyone outside the Cleric Class can get the best buffs without having to invite a Priest to his party. They buffs are even better than the actual buffs if the Pardoner Priest is inside the party casting Aspersion/Blessing/Sacrament actively, since they last very long. Compare that with the high costs of Chaplains Capella with a similar effect but way worse scaling for most buffs…

Pardoners need to be important and well-respected characters, similar to Clergymen in the medieval times, not some cheap support service sector guy who helps you for cheap $$$ to be more effective on your own.

If they can’t they failed their purpose and the Class is as hollow as its name is currently…