Tree of Savior

Rebuild Feedback Compilation


#1

Hi all, @STAFF_Bob mentioned last night that he was compiling feedback from itos on what we know about Rebuild. I figured it would be helpful to compile as much constructive feedback as possible in a single thread, and would ask that others participate. Also, I’d like to ask the following:

Please keep posts here constructive, with as little back and forth/shitposting as possible. No one image macro replies, no bants. Just feedback, constructive arguments/reasoning for why you feel the way you do.

To start, my own feedback:

  1. Shields should not be equippable by all classes, or should not be an auto-swap feature on all classes. This leads to every single class using a shield by default and using autoswap to swap back to their weapon.

  2. The current monster/damage balance favors really high damage output, and very low incoming damage, making content feel very easy. This includes things like Velco–which are just drawn out slogs because you can’t kill him, but he can’t kill you either. Damage balance will continue to need refinement, but this will significantly hurt the impact of Rebuild if it’s not addressed.

  3. Boruta’s reward structure is a problem. Seals having an RNG destruction element is a disastrous mix of yet another unrewarding loot system for best in slot gear. Furthermore, while a few players (myself included) have a lot of the materials needed for the new accessories, and I understand you want to make sure that old achievements don’t go to waste or are unrecognized, it will be nearly impossible for newer players to catch up and obtain this gear due to using so many old world boss accessories.

  4. Very positive: Number of skills at max level. The videos posted highlighted this, seems like a huge improvement and is deserving of praise. Big QOL saver for many people with too many skills for the amount of viable hotkeys we have.

Class Specific Concerns:

  1. Appraiser being a predominantly self-buffing class hurts its overall utility.
  2. Quarrel shooter still feels like it’s missing something. My recommendation would be to encourage a playstyle with it, one way or the other.
  3. Hunter pet AI still needs work.
  4. Pre-emptive strike was re-added, but tomahawk still exists, giving falc what feels like more skills than many other equivalent circles.
  5. Sniper’s serenity makes musket still feel very limiting. Not sure if the planned new class will fix this, but information on said new class would be great.
  6. All magic can crit and magic DoTs can crit… but Wugushi DoTs can’t. Is there a reason for this?
  7. Wugushi feels very starved for skill points, yet many possible “paths” lead to a similar result.
  8. Monk seems to still suffer from an unknown “role.” What role should this class serve, how can it be different enough from chaplain or zealot or other melee DPS?
  9. Squire needs help! I know this was addressed in one of the blog posts, but making this class even a little combat viable would make a lot of people very happy.
  10. Some classes seem too much like they are simply made to support other classes and have no individual identity. Monk, sadhu, bokor, QS, chrono, and rogue seem to suffer the most from this.
  11. Chrono needs major help, on that note. Needs more skills, needs to have some kind of more than niche functionality.
  12. Nak Muay needs a complete rework. The Rebuild video even highlighted some of its biggest weaknesses. No one wants to use a buff and then spam the same skill over and over until the buff goes away.

When people ask “what class should I play?” I tend to frame the answer based on what they want to do at end game. I think the concerns right now for Rebuild focus around the fact that many of the classes seem to serve no ultimately end game purpose that has its own unique identity. Classes should not rely on other classes to function and you’re going to see the same “meta/23 viable classes” problem pop back up because certain synergies are still good, primarily because of those handful of classes that ultimately only buff another.

Naturally, there are a few more concerns that Rebuild doesn’t seem to be addressing, that I think serves as a starting point. Client latency/stability, RNG/unrewarding gear upgrading, PVP balance, and broadly the lack of interesting PVE/PVP content are really the core issues that cause players to leave the game for long stretches of time. While I know Rebuild will ultimately lead to bigger changes involving improving these other core issues, we can only hope they happen quickly.

In the meantime, let’s get the most feedback and information we can over to Bob and the Staff and hope that by the time iTos sees Rebuild, it will be stable and enjoyable for as many people as possible.


#2

I think I agree with most of the points here. To expand with my thoughts on some of your thoughts:

  1. The matter with shields is an interesting one I haven’t considered. Perhaps it wouldn’t feel too bad in PvE, though I’d feel sad that it’d interfere with the ‘aesthetic’ I want for my builds. Moreover, I think that this could probably be problematic in PvP, similar to the problem of everyone stacking CON in the current iteration of the game.
  2. I just made a whole post about this! Too many encounters in the game are nonthreatening, and therefore uninteresting. We need more unique challenges. If we want the rebuild to bring about class diversity, I think having different challenges will be important in highlighting the strengths of different builds.
  3. I think the designers should stop and ask, “Will the players feel like they are losing progress?” at every point in the design process. If the answer is “yes” then they really should reconsider the mechanic. Things like enhancement are a very, very sore point for most players.

#3

Is base block really that strong?

I’m pretty sure block got removed from CON so anyone using a shield isn’t going to be able to block that often. You could go block gear, but only swordies have block modifiers (can paladin still c-block?). You still take half damage on block (vs the 0 damage we have now). With “nothing hurts” balance “half of nothing” is still “nothing”. The only real advantage I can see from a shield is avoiding KBs and KDs which only really matter if let’s say IMC takes away gazing golem cards.

The direct problem with QS that I can see are 2 outdated skills that do nothing to say “I’m a QS”: stone shot and rapid fire. Stone shot is just your basic KB attack that can stun. I can see it as an interrupt but nothing in PvE really needs interrupting. In PvE it’s not really intuitive due to the playstyle IMC is pushing on QS -> turret play. As for rapid fire, no one really even uses it now with it’s crit debuff and rebuild will be requiring fear to add damage (something the kit doesn’t have at all). Another problem is the obvious synergy they are forcing with canonie. Can you even use stone shot and rapid fire with a cannon? And finally tear down is just “weird”.

As for its identity, QS is a frontline turret. You want to be “up there” in melee to get blocks. Pavise and kneeling shot enable you to do that. Caltrops can get you a bit of a respite.


#4

Nice! I have only 1 thing that got me the most, and it is:

  1. Content still looks not difficult: first videos of players testing Re:Build was kinda nice, cause content looked harder, but after november 25 maintenance, monsters looks like they are too easy again. As mentioned already, feeling like you’re being threatened by the monsters makes an achievement (quest completion, party mission, clearing dungeon, even leveling parties) more rewarding, makes you actually have to consider monsters attack and therefore they are more memorable, but more than all of this, it gives Tankers and Support builds more meaning. Support/Heal already have their space (altough actual meta healer is not really needed outside Velcoffer), but tankers were always not necessary, you will mostly be better with another DPS. Please no early R8 level of difficulty (cause Quests, when they are used as a way of leveling, should be solo-able), that was too much, but I guess a middle ground will be healthy.

Then the rest is about what I saw of some classes:

  • Change Rogue, Hackapell and maybe Squire icons: they don’t fit their class tree anymore.

  • Chronomancer: class got completely stripped, ended up solely with skills that were always situational. Besides Pass, all the other skills don’t have actual usage (never had relevance, even today), and Quick Cast will be even more irrelevant, as you can’t be interrupted, Rod will help you casting and dev said that Casting Time will be implemented in some equipment also.

  • Enchanter: still feel as an outsider in the Scout tree. I bought Thauma right away, and Linker specially when you changed skill effects. But Enchanter still looks too magical-ish, specially with Enchant Lightining/Earth there (give the first one to Taoist and the second one to Rune Caster, please). Maybe animations/outfit would change this perception even further.

  • Oracle: Divine Might and the return of gimmick Twist of Fate will not save it. Please bring back Foretell area, but without movement, and then Oracle might compete better in support, as it will be the only invulnerability skill in the game. (Edit: and even with that, as long as game content is not threatening, at least party content, it will still not be enough for the class)

  • Sadhu: still lacks on what it is supposed to do. If it’s solely magical damage, then it needs better (3 skills only, and a gimmick Auto Attack). Suggestions: 1) fix Spirit Movement Speed 2) Make spirit compatible with everything it should in the game, as a regular dps skill, not a hardcoded interaction (i.e. Sanctuary and Kagura Dance) 3) Either give it at least 1 more damage skill with CC (that seems to be what the class is meant to do) or make it so you can cast your skills from the spirit, not from the body (with a reasonable drawback, obviously. Duration, maybe?)

  • Exorcist: still works around Rubric, even that the new change on attribute reducing 2s of it was nice. Engkrateia will always be a 1 point skill if you don’t change its duration. Gregorate looks off now that it doesn’t remove debuffs (apparently). And please, bring Magnus Exorcismus back but for Exorcist. Suggestion: mix Entity and Gregorate as the same thing, increase Rubric cooldown by a little bit, bring back ME and extend Engrkrateia duration to 12s.

  • Kabbalist: it was slowly loosing its uniqueness to end up being another healer class. Bring back Double Chance but with improved area (don’t need Gevurah area, but the same area of a chariot will be nice. Bring another calc skill to use on your party mates to increase their damage maybe.

  • Monk: it needs area, and it needs damage factor. Make Energly Blast to charge faster. Not sure what else can be done, not a huge monk player.

  • Krivis: Daino looks too simple with Accuracy only… it should have another feature as well. Melestis ended up killed with that cooldown, reduce it a little please. Give Divine Stigma more targets… like 8 maybe, and an improved area.


#5

Enchant magic is literally the magic of people who cant innately use magic, makes perfect sense in my mind


I agree on the rest though, and enchanters costume could be made more appropriate for scout tree


#6

No, but the defense on shields was buffed by a very large amount, just like damage on weapons were buffed. A few videos we’ve seen of people on ktos just are running around with shields equipped. No fun. :stuck_out_tongue:

I totally forgot about Krivis but meant to include it! Kriv is suffering hugely right now because melstis appears to have such a big skill:value ratio/budget. Dunno how else to explain it, but the class right now is really suffering from a lack of identity. One possible idea would be to expand more upon the resistances, or perhaps offer more/better group buffs for elemental damage/defenses.


#7

Hey guys,

Thank you guys for creating this thread and also thank you for your valuable input on the game!
But I just wanted to make a couple of things clear before things get out of hand :astonished:

If your feedback is too lengthy it’s very difficult for us to collect them and even more difficult for the devs to comment on. The ideal format would be(just summarizing some of the points that Csisko brought up as an example):

e.g. What will happen to the difficulty adjustment in Re:Build? Many of us have noticed that kTEST’s difficulty was substantially lowered over time.

e.g.2. There are apparent limits to build combinations. Some classes have better synergy than others and the problem of ‘meta builds’ may still persist. Is anything being done to fix this?

and if you want to give greater details or comment on questions raised or just start an open discussion with other players you can add more text below the central question.

Also, a new FAQ is on its way and it will address some questions raised by iTOS players on the forums!


#8

Great, so it seems we aren’t allowed to articulate our feedback if we want them read by the people we need them read by.


#9

Yup… Great… Yup…


#10

Just quoting from kTest so it can be found easier (and adding a 4th question).

4- How likely would it be to have classes some switched in the future? I know this wouldn’t be a likely thing to happen but are devs willing to reallocate a class if it doesn’t fit in as they expected.


#11

This is really a 1st for me regarding analytical, objective, “proper” feedback. Any time you articulate “skill x sux, change it because it sux” it’s going to get long.

Hopefull this is going to answer questions that are actually related to gameplay and performance. The last Q&A really had us scratching our heads here in itos. I remember a reaction where someone posted “this is what the korean testers are concerned about?”.


#12

For Monk, buffs needed would probably be:

One-Inch Punch: Increase its damage factor and aoe attack please, its too weak to even bother adding more than 1 point unless PvP. Also, please let the SP and HP drain from the skill stack so the drain increases, the drain damage is too negligible to count as proper damage.

Energy Blast: Increase its damage factor. The skill isn’t really worth using beyond CC unless Capella or Divine Stigma is used to make it decent (Capella is annoying to set up, Divine Stigma only hits 5 monsters). Also please give us Knockback remove attribute back. Please reduce its charge time too, give Monks their 2.5s charge instead of the 5s charge time it has now.

Golden Bell Shield: Increase its duration to 15 seconds at least, Monk is not bursty enough to fit much in that 10s time frame (Heck, charging and firing Energy Blast, not counting time taken to reposition, takes 11 seconds minimum). 60s cool down may also be too much, might want to reduce the cooldown. Please give its pain barrier attribute back too, or some sort of pain barrier or protection effect while under the skill. The skill is called a shield for a reason.

Iron Skin: Too lackluster to be even with taking unless taking Monk for an auto attack build. Please increase the numbers and give it enhance attribute or make it a 1 point skill, its quite weird how Iron Skin is worse than Stone Skin in every way (Iron Skin is a self-buff that only works on physical damage with 7.5% reduction, Stone Skin works on both magic and physical damage with 9.6% reduction with attribute while affecting party members)

Double Punch: Please give its strike debuff effect back. Why remove the debuff?

Palm Strike + Hand Knife: A little damage increase would be appreciated, but the armour ignore is more worth taking about. Why 7.5%? Please increase that armour ignore, 7.5% is too little to even be noticed, even its 30% armour break sounds better in comparison. A suggestion too, please make Hand Knife usable after One-Inch Punch. (please increase its aoe attack too)

I ask for all these damage buffs since as a DPS class, compared to other classes, Monk only has damage skills going for it. With that said, other DPS classes in the cleric tree have better damage skills, and/or have better utility skills like Breaking Wheel to make up for/complement their existing skills. Meanwhile, Monks only have damage skills and their utility skills are lackluster (Iron Skin gives too little at lvl 15, and then Golden Bell Shield, a burst very short duration buff for a constant DPS class and only affects Monk skills). Monks require other classes to be decent while classes like Inquisitor and Exorcist are excellent on their own. Most builds, if not all, are better off taking other classes instead of Monk.

That doesn’t sound like balance, does it? I thought the one of the goals of ReBuild was to make all classes balanced instead of the rank 1 class < rank 10 class dilemma.

(Still posts long discussion anyways :joy:)


#13

I think he just wants things articulated in a more concise/formulaic way to make it easier to read for people who are not native english speakers. I tend to overexplain things, so it makes sense to me.

@STAFF_Bob I’d say that the biggest things for me, in more simplified questions/statements:

  1. Some classes still feel a lot more skill heavy than others. Do you plan on adding/removing more skills?
  2. Some classes still feel like they only serve to buff other classes within the tree, and have no unique identity, what might be done to address this?
  3. The seal system feels far too punishing and several people I know who would participate feel as though too few people will do it because it’s another RNG system. Do you think you’ll keep the destruction chance on fails? Will any of the other RNG gearing systems be rebalanced or addressed?
  4. Since every class can equip a shield, are there plans to fix it so that everyone does not just wear one for the defense all the time, and then uses autoswap to do attacks?
  5. Any plans to fix chrono?
  6. Any plans to make wugushi and other physical damage DoTs crit? Magic ones can but wugu ones can’t…
  7. What’s the plan for monk? Chaplain seems to have slipped into its role, and does it better than monk.
  8. Any other information on the new archer class? How will it be balanced without feeling forced for muskets, for example?

#14

I find another thing lacking in monk is flavor. Mind you, I understand that flavor will never really be a priority, but as it stands monk is nothing more than a straight forward damage piano. You push buttons in a specific sequence and damage (less than other options) happens.

Taking from other concepts in other games, monk skills could have WAY more big CD’s that have some additional way to reduce said cd. Take golden bell shield for instance. You could have DP reduce its CD by 1 every DP. This way GBS gains value thru more use and at the same time DP gains value by bringing your other skill CD’s back up via GBS.

These “added effects” need to be included in the monk kit to even remotely justify the poor dps monk has.


#15

Yeah, and then you have Inquisitor with their cooldown reduction attribute per kill.

At least as it stands, Monk right now is just simple damage class that does not do as much damage as other classes that also has better utility skills.


#16

I get that language IS a barrier, but it’s unavoidable in (any) international market.

For example, I will critique portions of your list of sample questions. I will be coming at this as someone who has had to constantly translate a client’s requests to something my team of devs can understand.

Which “some classes”?

  • All classes have generally the same number of skills.

What does skill heavy mean?

  • The number of skills have already been reduced. Is the current list still too much?

Which skills should be removed/replaced?

  • Which skills are under used and why?
  • which skills are always used and why?

What do you mean by “buff other classes”?

  • What do you mean by “in the same tree”?

What do you mean by “identity”?

  • A monk is someone who uses his fists as weapons. How is that not unique?

These 2 points alone already generate way too many unanswered questions for a communication system that requires a middle man (forums). If this were a direct conversation it would be way different.


#17

Obviously, because you can’t read either.

Not a debate thread. Pick your favorite thread and hash it out there, then post whatever you decide in here.


#18

Bullet Marker is still overloaded with skill post Re:Build, the average is 6 but there are some exceptions on skill point sum.

On theme it is, (mechanical) identity not that much. If you want get deeper check this thread i wrote about the 3 pillars of class design.


#19

That was more devil’s advocate than anything. It was mainly to illustrate that making feedback concise/formulaic, shorter/easier to read (basically dumbed down), raises more questions making it more confusing than clear.

Not all issues are the same. As such not all issues can fit a mold.

I mean, what does that even say about your work (great work IMHO, you know I’m a fan). Would you dumb all those down risking losing a lot of the ideas in your breakdowns? How would you feel knowing your carefully crafted feedback risks not getting read at all because “it is too long?”

I guess OP doesn’t think feedback on how IMC accepts feedback isn’t feedback at all.


#20

Just curious though, in the name of balance, is IMC planning to make special costumes for every other classes (Stage 1, 2 and 3 costumes along with TP class costume) like Zealot and Matador for ReBuild (not including base classes)?