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Re:Build. Classes that still need more work

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#1

Squire

The current Squire does 3 things

  1. Food
  2. Shops
  3. Base Camp, Extends duration and gives a warp.

In Rebuild the duration extension is removed and the warp is made so bad that it’s not worth the 10k silver that it costs to summon the camp. Which means this skill is basically deleted. However you still need it and it’s overpriced cost in order to eat Food. I understand there are issues with Base Camp at the moment, ways to bug it to bring it into CM and buffs that are too strong for its benefits but you really haven’t left Squire with much. Even in Rebuild Deadly Combo is a mediocre skill, and Corsair and Reti nets are far better than Squires. It doesn’t even have any special class attributes and now it’s even in the Scout tree where it gets less hp.
Not enough people care about Squire to really show the outrage to these changes needed to prevent them but the fact that it’s not taken seriously in itself is a problem.

Druid

In the first Druid nerf I went from gaining 175% HP down to 75% because the effect of Henge Stone was removed. Making it a pretty terrible skill. In this update I go from 75% HP and 40% Physical and Magic Defense to not having any durability increase. On top of Druids .3 CON Ratio, in 2 updates you’ve taken the strongest tank in ToS and removed it. We’re left with Pelt-Templar-Murm as our 1 tank class. This is another issue where you don’t get to hear from the people who are hurt by these changes because they’re a minority. Most players are PvE focused, even when they play PvP they don’t try to play efficiently, they just apply PvE to PvP and PvE players only care about DPS. They don’t even notice that the large insect transformation went from top tank to not even as durable as a fly. The people who do see the problem, those affected by it, can’t be heard over all these PvE players who are upset that Monk didn’t get buffed enough or that Zealot DPS got nerfed too much.
I personally am also saddened by the loss of Carnivory, what used to be an amazing attack that took skill to use effectively in PvP has become a useless buff to one of the worst stats this game has ever known. Not only is it “Just damage” it’s the worst kind. At least making it % property damage would actually make it do something but you lose majority of your crit attack in the calculation giving you about 1/3 of it as damage. AND THAT IS ONLY A CRIT! What if you don’t even build crit? “Oh yea I run the tank Druid build” yea… Can’t say that anymore.
I would honestly rather have Carnivory as it used to be but with 1% SFR. That would out-DPS the crit buff by a pretty massive amount. Since every 1% tick would still apply Blessing and *25 AoE Blessing does far more damage than 50-75% Crit Attack. It’s a worthless stat and it’s so sad to lose the best DPS skill on this class just to get an increase to it.

Oracle

Since I just finished talking about Druid, this is the next class I should cover because it’s loss affects Druid massively as well. As if Druid wasn’t getting nerfed badly already, 2 of the coolest Druid transformations were only available because of Oracles “Change” skill. Now that every Druid is stuck getting the same 3 bad stats regardless of transform, it’s time to look for Transforms that either look cool or have abilities worth having. When I think of cool looking summons 3 things come to mind. Cemetery Golem, Cyria (The girl with Manahaus inner wall 9) and the many cool bosses such as Ahklass Princess. Idc if Shape Shifting works on bosses yet but I assume it doesn’t and if that’s the case removing the Sequioa normal monster and one of our coolest looking summons hurts a lot. If you’re not going to add change back, making a way to access these monsters for Druids sake would be appreciated.

Barbarian

Barb loses everything this patch. I know technically the loss of Wild Nature is a buff for Seism since you no longer need to deal with a tedious mechanic to maximum it’s damage, and that’s good. However before Rebuild Barb had 2 huge things going for it that made it a good class, it was the 1 Swordsman that could heal itself and that was an extremely underrated heal. And it also had a 20(ish?) second stun. Now yes that stun duration is bullshit and deserved a nerf no doubt. However it didn’t get the nerf it deserved instead it was outright removed! The skill still exists but without the stun it’s absolutely worthless, and on top of that the other stun Barbarian had was moved to another class that didn’t even need it.
When rebuild hits, this probably won’t affect Barbs popularity, after all these are not damage nerfs so PvE players won’t care much and Barb still does that 1 thing Swordsman need most, it provides a class that does not require a specific weapon. However do not get the wrong idea! Barbarian is NOT A GOOD CLASS, it is NOT IN A GOOD STATE. It was heavily nerfed more than most other classes in Rebuild and it’s PvP ability has dropped more than any other class in this game EXCEPT FOR DRUID.

Necro

Unlike a lot of the other changes I’ve talked about Necro isn’t getting ■■■■ on with nerfs, it’s probably not that bad in terms of viability however that doesn’t mean it’s okay. Necromancer is going to go from 10 Skeletons to 5. Yea Bokor being an option increases the summon count by 8 but YOU LOSE OUT ON CRYO TO GRAB THAT! Losing Cryo is the cost of +8 summons, so there is no reason for additional trade offs. I understand there is a bad history for this class, first with Afk farming and then bots for some reason choose Necro over other classes, they also cause targeting issues and for some even lag, so there is a lot of hate for this class. Try to understand though, this class is very fun to play, it feels awesome to have an army. Instead of being some super powerful Sage and oneshotting everyone with Dimension Compression this is a class that is actually leaves the player very weak, it’s the summons that are strong, the human controlling them gets pretty mediocre spells. So having 5 summons taken away is a huge hit. However it’s not even the viability of the class that really gets hurt, it’s the fun of the class, having less makes it less fun, and that’s the problem with nerfing Skeleton amount as opposed to their DPS.
Speaking of fun, you’d think having a new summon skill would be more fun but since the skeletons share the same counter and these ones have such bad duration they’re not even really worth using. A recent update separating the CDs made it slightly better but honestly it still feels bad. If they shared the same count of 10 summons it might feel good but. Atm Necromancer’s don’t feel worth the price paid.

Now a few minor ones.

Hackapell - Pretty obvious, wrong tree, I read the explanation why, but still don’t agree. Hackapells use Sword + Gun, they belong in Scout. Don’t fight it.
Highlander - Cross Guard being a small % of your block really hurts it’s usefulness, if it’s not near guaranteed to block than it’s not worth it. The current Cross Guard is good, you hold it down and you block physical attacks. This new one looks like it’s gonna be pretty useless. 20% when maxed is far too small. Better to just pick Pelt and use Offhand active block. :frowning:
Paladin/Monk - Stone Skin and Iron Skin are both great skills and aren’t being valued as much as they should be, that said the point cost is too high. 15 points is too much for this. Old Stone Skin was 23%(?) for level 6 IIRC, compared to the 6% for 15 points, that’s a huge drop. I know that this ones duration is far better however it’s still a nerf. I’m fine with the values honestly 7.5% and 6% are still good, it’s just that they take too much to achieve that. Paladin could be 2% + 1% per level capped at 5, and Monk could be 1.5% per level capped at 5 and they’d get the same amounts (not counting gems or divine might) but they’d feel so much less painful to get. I’m going to max them regardless :frowning: but this feels terrible.

Lastly just a few removed skills that will be missed.
Butterfly (Doesn’t even have to be on peltasta)
Umbo Thrust (Better than Shield Bash from Rodelero)
High Kick (Rodelero skill removed, would have been nice to put on Nak Muai)
Buff Share (Old Templar Skill, could have been moved to Squire)
Hold (Sorc skill, increases Sorc summon Attack Speed and gives a way to control 2 areas at once)
Running Shot (Specifically on Bullet Marker, archers get the effect on Swift Step but BM gets the short straw)
Telepathy (Druid skill, testing transforms and CC in PvP, pretty neat, and now gone…)
CHANGE (Aside from helping Druid a ton it was a nice farming skill, please bring it back)
Safety Zone (Overpowered, yes, but removing the attribute would have fixed it, an active block is never a bad thing)
Capture (Rogue skill, basically the entire reason to take it in PvP, without it, this is a PvE class)
Base Camp (Pretend it’s still in the game if you want, but this skill is gone, what is left is just an increased cost to food table. A bad joke.) :frowning:

#2

imo they could just give Cleric the active block ability by default to make it more interesting (active gameplay & reaction instead of cast and wait), Safety Zone was just too limiting in its nature.

#3

I may be wrong but did they not added it to Paladin ? If so, it’s clearly enough.

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#4

They did but the active block is very clunky and PvP builds shouldn’t all be forced into taking Paladin. The neat thing about Safety Zone was how fast you could use, even a 1 point skill in Cleric that blocks 1 attack and has a high CD would do wonders. I’m not against active block for everything, in fact I want Cryo and QS to get it at the very least. However what we can get for active blocking, especially when it’s limited is a good thing.

I can totally understand not wanting long ass invincibilities but tools that are easy to react with to protect you from big damage skills when you deserve it, those should be fairly available. Which is why I’m disappointed Cross Guard will no longer block consistently either. Players already rate Doppel and Highlander F tier in PvP, they’re probably gonna have to make a new tier list letter now. Z Tier.

#5

Is this feedback based on the current state of the game in ktos? I kind of feel like a lot of this is based on old meta without taking into account how it looks like currently in re:build.

The new FAQs address quite a lot of these things actually (like how they explain the smaller skeleton count means they will be more significant per minion), might want to check that out too. Anyway, they are saying that they will be actively monitoring things and a bunch of classes will still change as re:build goes along so it might be better to try things out first before declaring things as good or bad.

#6

You already can block without blocking actively, so for me it doesn’t force anyone to take Paladin for PvP. What is clearly forced in PvP is the gear, and for almost all builds, the shield.

They could simply put Safety Zone on another class of Cleric tree instead of removing it. TBH I was shocked to see Safety Zone on Cleric when I was playing during CBT, it’s really too powerful for a base class.

#7

This is about PvP so not really much changes, I didn’t mention the stats that I feel were also ruined.

I did read the FAQ after posting this. Skeleton Count remains the same, it’s not an issue of viability but rather fun. I AM GOING TO HAVE LESS FUN because I have less Skeletons. I imagine others probably will to, it’s the feeling of having so many that makes it good. It’s not the biggest thing in the world I definitely feel that the stuff I covered about Druid, Change, Squire and Barbarian are bigger deals it’s just I disagree with nerfing fun.

If they nerfed Skeletons by reducing their damage I’d just say “Maybe IMC thinks it’s too much damage, it’s OP, it had to be lowered” I’d accept it, there is a lot of damage that got nerfed this patch but the fun doesn’t need to get nerfed, and I think having 10 is a lot of fun. I guess I just kind of hope others agree with me on that part and express so in this thread. The more people talk about what they do agree with among the many topics brought up here no doubt the higher chance IMC will fix it.

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#8

Passive blocking is different, it’s actually not a good mechanic at all, puts too much on luck in combat which should not be a large factor. When luck is a bigger aspect than intelligence or skill it really hurts the competitiveness of PvP.

Being able to block a skill you know will kill you is pretty important. For example for a while I was playing a BM in Gem Feud, if I landed my Smash Bullet on most of the Doppels in it, that was it, they’d die, RNG didn’t favor them, and I stacked a stat to mitigate RNG so they lose, but for the few who would use Cross Guard or Cyclone in order to prevent the Smash Bullet DoT, they got to live, and THEY DESERVED TO! They played “Smart” and were rewarded for it. That’s how a competitive PvP game would work. I understand that ToS is not the competitive PvP game I want it to be, but settling for less pointlessly is just too sad, so hopefully IMC actually wants to improve PvP and will add stuff like that back. Not more long periods of invincibility but more ways to stop 1 or 2 hits by choice.

#9

Well as far as making noise to get the attention of the devs go, I’m at the wait-and-see and make-do-with-what-I-have side of things so yeah. For necro though I can see the appeal of having less but beefier minions only because statistically that just means they do the same damage but die less times (although they can’t distribute the damage as well, but the AI of clumped skeletons kind of prevent that from happening anyway).

Anyway I’m not really disagreeing, it’s just that with so many changes and almost every class losing something that made people pick the class for that sole reason (basically very weighty skills, like heal tiles, invuls, party melstis, blind faith etc.), it might be premature to ask for those things back. For PvP though I prefer having less CCs and less invuls, but at the same time I want them to replace it with other interesting things like active blocks, dodges and other gimmicks, though that might be pretty much what you are asking for as well.

EDIT: I think invuls or CCs would be more fun if there was a way to hard counter them that’s accessible for everyone. Perhaps some pvp gimmicks can be added to basic attacks, jumps, dashes and guarding. For example, jumps take you out of knockdowns, dashing dodges auto lock targeting ranged attacks/skills, guarding blocks frontal attacks and basic attacks can take you out of root-CC etc. but add a cooldown or resource management and vulnerability element to these actions.

#10

Squire
Yep, agree 100%. But at least they said there are plans to rework squire, so there’s still a little bit of hope left lol.

Druid
Alright I’ll take the bait this time.
You want the class to perform in a way that only you play. Druid was not meant to be a tank, get over it already. Druid was meant to be a hybrid magic/phys dps with a little bit of heals, and its skills and stat distribution proves that. Carnivory also boosts both magic and physical crit, so it can be viable for any type of dps build.
If you think 25x blessing procs would do more damage than what an Druid-Exo or Druid-Inqui could do with a 75% crit buff, you are just plain wrong.

The one thing I dont like about the new druid is the absurd Sp cost on lycantrophy. And I know they made Hengestone remove the sp cost on full-wolf form, but that makes a previously mobile class into a stationary one just like Diev, and I’m not a huge fan of that. I’ll probably end up using demi-wolf 100% of the time instead, and just give up the full-wolf form.

Oracle
Yeah, Change was one of those skills that are pretty bad, but at least were fun. Other than that, I think the new oracle is great.

Barbarian
You gotta be trolling on this one. Cleave gives +10% crit rate, +20% dmg. Warcry is -10% enemy defense, and up to +25% dmg buff. Frenzy now stacks with skills hits and gives up to +40% dmg. Seism gives big damage with a decent aoe size even after wild nature got removed (and it has low cooldown, 2 overheat). And thats ignoring the enhance attributes, which make barb buffs be way stronger. Stomping kick and Embowel kinda sucks though.

In my opinion its not an easy class to play, but still good overall.

And about blocking as a cleric, I heard that any cleric using a shield can hold C to block, just like peltasta. Any cleric can also use 2H maces in case you want more dps.

High Kick for Nak Muay would be pretty cool, I have to agree on this.

Also I heard smash bullet got fixed in ktos, abuse it while you can before you become useless in pvp lol

#11

Even if you don’t see Druid as a tank which like Large Insect is by far the most popular transformation.

On it’s own Druid would do more damage with Blessing, crit attack is a fairly hard stat to get, but lets say because you get this change you try for it, REMEMBER Druid is INT And STR, not SPR and DEX. You could probably get about 2k crit attack. Now lets say you got 90% chance to crit, because that’s insanely high and more than most probably have in most situations.

you get 2k / 3 = 670 you add that 670 onto 90% of the Carnivory ticks you get Idk or care, you put blessing on those you get 2k each probably, maybe less 1500 even. that’s already 3 times what the crit buff adds.

Now as far as that “sketchy math” you may be questioning, that is not an exact science. It doesn’t actually get cut by a third and then applied as flat but every calculation I have ever seen for this stat has shown 2/3 of it being lost before it’s applied.

I did neglect 1 thing though, Exocist is also a big multi hitter and Druid doesn’t just buff itself, even so that forces you into a crit build and will probably still do less than again 1% carnivory would be doing. For the record we didn’t even get into property damage, I would much rather do a property damage build than a crit damage build. At least that hits everytime, no bad luck ■■■■■■■ the user.

#12

You forgot Fencer’s Attaque Coquille

Also, Oracle and Barbarian are fine now, stop crying

#13

Barbarian got a lot of PvE benefit I didn’t notice so might be wrong there, Oracle was more about Druid anyways. Change is an important skill, not only is it the best way to get the drop you want, it’s essential to get the strongest transform as well as the one that looks best IMO and many others even.

#14

thank you for talking about necro i felt the exact same. :’ )

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