Tree of Savior Forum

[Re:Build] Class Changes

General Discussion
#102

It depends where you farm. What are you looking for? If you farm in Hunting Grounds with Thauma + Linker to double the Loot dropped you can get stuff pretty easily. Of course some things don’t drop as often like Card Albums or White gems.
Therefore, what items are you looking for?

@Hmmmm
These ancient masteries will now be more useful as the damage overall got reduced and thus these little boosts count for more. Rod especially if you are playing ice as you get cast time as well.

I agree there should be a basic Staff Mastery that like increases something crit related. So Rod is fast and save while Staff is more risky but high damage (normal and/or crit).

1 Like
#103

Not to that extent though. Gevhrin during those times is one will get 1hko out of nowhere, players cringe when a sage isn’t with them and seeing a spiral arrow label showing up lol.

In Re:build as long as one has appropriate gear (+5 t0 berthas of a current level) it is actually quite managable in the world maps.

HG maps and dungeons sport higher difficulty as monsters hit way harder and are more tough. It is here where where players need mid investment in
their gears. Around T2-3 +11 berthas/primus will suffice to not die like tofu.

The 330dg boss reminds me of Gesti fight during the R8 times. I love it. It has that monster hunter kind of feel that the player has to dodge the boss’s attacks at all costs (or risk losing a huge chunk of hp) and only commit to an attack when he/she knows it is safe to do so.

As soloers the main thing to take away for re:build is, there’s a need to change our mindset. The game is no longer dynasty warriors/diablo3 style where we can just jump headlong into the fray not caring how many monsters there are or attacks they do.

In re:build there’s a need to gauge how many monsters is a limit for our current attack power and defenses, then change our pull strategy according to it. This is especially true for classes that only have potions as the only way to regenerate health.

2 Likes
#104

As long as they support that with classes, etc. .
Not sure about having to have this high gear to be able to actually farm in Hunting Grounds.

Hopefully they tune down the knockdown and increase the need for strategy. Even if they eventually need to implement forced roles or the need for a healer. Even now the 330er dungeon can be a pain if you don’t have a healer for the boss as he knocks you all over the place and deals damage.
Make damaging attacks more visible for the player as well. I see his splashing circle, but if he does that every 10-15s then I can never do damage… . Also, threat needs to be a thing then otherwise it will turn into a Zerg-festival of first class.

1 Like
#105

seems boring tbh lol, if they keep heading towards the slow game direction they are gonna crash imo

#106

At the moment, I have the same feeling with the Ignas fight. Try to fight him with an unprepared alt and it will be challenging. It would be nice to see one fight on KTest. And I’m sure the new raid with him as final boss will be challenging too.

#107

We never really could do it diablo 4/dynasty warriors style anyway because of the aggro limit. Effortlessly destroying large hoards of enemies without challenge is also boring. Games that allow you to do this tend to have difficulty that scales up with the amount of enemies you face as a result, but ToS has never managed to do this well, thanks to how passive and samey the enemies are.

#108

They need to find the correct balance for sure. But not even Diablo 3 is without tactic and generally pretty fast as well with more enemies as well. If you ever did some higher rifts with the amount of enemies and extra abilities they have then it looks different to ToS.

#109

the update increases the aggro cap, it seems they realized the fun factor of playing a peltasta and decided to inject a bit of that into the game lol.

killing hoards should be the default gameplay, sprinkled with tough encounters, so the action keeps rolling, they could already do this by upping the spawn rates for both normal and elite mobs across the board, eg. you would fight 10-15 enemies on average and encounter an elite every minute or so.

challenge mode is just a really nerfed version of how grifts scale lol

#110

Good arguments, I always found some maps to be pretty empty. For some it may make sense but others should have more mobs in general. Though that would need more balancing for Single Target focused classes and ways of playing, otherwise they will be left in the dust.
If they can manage a good mix of large hoards, tough elite monsters and challenging boss fights it would be perfect.

Well, you aren’t wrong about challenge mode. =x
It should be opened ended as well, if I want to reach stage 15+ on a map then that should be possible if I or our group invests as much. Add in some map specific rewards that you can get at a low rate and more maps will be challenged.

#111

I think the aggro cap really will help a lot. However there has to be a lot more to make the gameplay feel fast.

If you look at any game like Path of Exile where mob killing is the standard, you’ll notice that there’s a lot more variation in enemies. They are also fast and attack the player rapidly, making them an actual threat.

ToS’s mobs rarely use threatening skills, are passive more often than not, and tend to move over to a player and attack very slowly. Outside of the rare elite mob I rarely feel the need to evaluate what kinds of enemies are in the mob.

#112

im a 5k hours player of PoE lol,
true, enemies are varied but your one shotting everything lol and moving through packs at lightning speed

what makes PoE truly good is the insane amount of choices in builds and items, which i do not think any game will top, ToS(and other games) could learn a thing or two from the item designs though.

anyway i dont think the mobs have to be exciting for the gameplay to feel good(imo, ToS already feels really nice to play when your killing waves of monsters), getting monster AI design right is harder than designing exciting rewards(items etc.)

#113

here’s the thing though. Would you rather have exciting gameplay that feels good, or exciting gameplay that feels good AND has a wide diversity of strategic application and a reward for skillful play and attentiveness due to well designed mechanics and an actual satisfaction that comes from overcoming a real threat?

One of these things is just better than the other.

Basically, don’t excuse mediocrity, just because it ‘can’ work. Developers shouldn’t settle for ‘just good enough’ when it comes to designing games where a majority of the satisfaction comes from combat. Mobs don’t have to be exciting, but they should be exciting.

If you stand still in PoE and don’t attack mobs in high level maps, unless you’re something like a very tanky Righteous Fire build, you are going to die in a matter of seconds. In ToS, if you stand still in a high level map, most of the time you’re going to survive long enough to tab out of the game, start watching a youtube video, then tab back when you realize that you left your character idle in Sausys 9 only to find them at 1/4 HP and a few potions away from being fine.

There are rarely any moments in ToS where you’ll run into a pack of enemies, think “oh ■■■■” and have to leg it while popping all your healing consumables because you saw a pair of particularly dangerous enemies eyeing you up with the support of a group of others. Plenty of those moments in PoE for all but the most faceroll of builds.

#114

RO had those ‘oh ■■■■’ moments as well where you were mowing through groups of monsters and then a tyrfing would come and ruin your day. I would like to see that kind of ass-clenching threat from ToS in some form.

5 Likes
#115

Oh yeah, that’s true

I remember walking very carefully around Glast Heim and Raydrics area… fingers always ready to Teleport away or use a Fly Wing.

Good old times… where games overall were made to be challenging, not to pamper everybody.

:tired:

I hope Re:Build will bring back some extra difficulty. Overcoming hard moments is what brings satisfaction. Also hope they fix some (looking at all WB and their rewards).

1 Like
#116

when we had challenge people complained, what do yall want?

#117

People will always complain, can’t stop that. Having challenge in your game is still the right thing to do.

2 Likes
#118

in r7, the power scale of players was small, so people had to experience the game difficulty “as intended”, leading to the things that I think veterans look back on fondly. as soon as transcendence and crazy anviling started to hit, especially with escalating skill%, suddenly the power scale exploded and now the well-geared guys can solo things quicker and easier than an entire team of lowbies.
so what happens? who do you balance around? it’s not really fair to balance around those guys with +21 t10 stuff so the devs chose to base difficulty on entry-level gear.

I experienced what draconis said; the game in its current state actually does feel challenging in some places like the astral tower ignas fight, but only if you don’t have crazy strong gear. also, taking my alts into dg330 really drove home the power difference between +21 t10 and +6 t3.
the fact is that most players never see the challenge nor care about mechanics because it’s easy to overcome it with gear, and that level of gear has become the new normal in a game that was balanced for a tier lower.
What I see re:build doing is pushing the power floor of game content to a tier higher, but I really don’t know how they’ll ever find a good balance as long as it remains possible for one player to become multiple times stronger than their neighbor. perhaps they’ll hit it. I don’t know.

All that said, there’s somehow already quite a lot of complaining happening about nerfs this and RIP that, I fully expect that to get even worse when re:build properly hits and more than just the ktest enthusiasts experience it. people have gotten used to being a one-man army, after all. lol. but I hope that the changes bring the game to a healthier state and I hope that IMC can advertise or hype the game to bring fresh eyes once the dust settles.

1 Like
#119

not really lol

thats subjective, like i said mowing ■■■■ down is fun, relaxed gameplay has its place imo, ToS is not in a state to become a “strategic” game

your gonna fight some trash mobs and a couple of strong monsters will show up(elites) thats how the game works currently and pretty much how the genre works.

please dont remind me of wendigo searchers
i dont know if you were in the beta, but monsters back then were extremely threatening and subsequently got nerfed

lol there are so much builds that can afk in T16’s,
getting killed in a matter of seconds doesn’t sound interesting to me, if thats how you like ToS then you missed your chance or maybe not, it seems like they are trying to adjust monsters in rebuild to have attack stats in-between the old ones and the current ones, challenge mode seems ass clenchy to me from the videos ive seen.

1 Like
#120

Came back to ToS after I heard about re:build and was excited because I felt that we were going to get some much needed changes. After reading the changes though I’m beginning to have my doubts.

I don’t want to make overt assumptions about changes because I haven’t played in ktest, nor do I know what will get changed before re:build goes live, but I can’t help but feel that overall a lot of current players will feel disappointed. Personally, I was looking forward to this patch fixing the class system and underpowered/weak/badly designed classes, but not at the expense of “nerfing” everything else.

I feel a lot of current players will resent the changes, which in turn will negatively affect the perceptions of the game for returning/new players. If that happens, then opinion of this game among prospective players will fall even lower than it has because of the fiasco surrounding initial relase.

#121

Way to cherry pick what I was trying to say.

i said if you STAND STILL and don’t do anything, you die in seconds in PoE, because the enemies are actually threatening and will punish you for being bad and making mistakes. As you should, because that what it means to be punished for not paying attention.

By comparison, ToS is far too forgiving, to the point of being insulting to the player.

Also no, it’s not subjective. You can have the same ‘mowing ■■■■ down’ gameplay that’s fun and relaxing AND much more challenging content in the same game. being able to play this way should be a reward for building smartly and playing skillfuly, and a good game can cater to both the path of least resistance and path of most resistance players. ToS as it currently stands caters WAY too much to the former, and not even in a way that’s good. The enemy ai and the distribution of difficulty is just objectively poorly and lazily designed. Don’t excuse mediocrity. If you compare ToS to other games in the genre, the mob difficulty balance and design is a very poor showing by ARPG standards. ToS absolutely could be in a state to become a strategic and deep experience if IMC would just re-evaluate how they design monsters and some of the systems that limit its potential.

And keep in mind, when I say difficulty, I do not mean ‘monsters hit harder and have more hp’. I mean give us a reason to use some of these interesting class abilities we get in ToS. We have tons of really unique skills with clever ways to control the battlefield, and rarely ever need to use them thoughtfuly because enemies are so brain-dead and nonthreatening for the average player, let alone a well geared one.

Just on principle, players should never be rewarded for playing poorly in any game. You should have the option to play poorly and should be able to succeed if you try hard enough through brute force, but mastery cieling exists to allow a person to form new experiences and get more out of the game as they ‘level up’ as a player.

Think of it like a swimming pool. A kiddie pool is very accessible, but when the swimmer feels like they’ve seen everything the kiddie pool has to offer, they have no option but to leave the pool.

A pool that has a kiddie pool that leads into a deeper area though isn’t as safe, but once the swimmer outgrows the kiddie pool, they’re able to head into the deeper area and learn to swim properly, with the option to retreat back to the kiddie pool if they feel unsafe.

The major difference between the kiddie pool and the regular pool is that the kiddie pool has NO potential for growth. The regular pool has all the benefits of the kiddie pool, and then some more. Therefore as a means of entertainment, the regular pool is just better.

1 Like